Heavyweights: David Tua vs Earnie Shavers

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 21 Nov 2007, 15:37

A classic knockout artists' showdown. I pick Tua on this one.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:07

Is a hard pick em fight, thats for sure.

If anyone could knock Tua out, it would have been Earnie Shavers. Only draw back with Shavers is that his conditioning was shit and he had a fairly soft chin...other than that, he hit like a ton of bricks, and if you could make five or so rounds with him, you might have a chance to make the distance.

I think alot of people would pick Shavers, as he fought Ali and Holmes and other fighters of the 1970's to mid 1980's. He gave Ali and Holmes hell, but was knocked out by guys like Jerry Quarry...

I think if Tua was to win, he would have to come out fast, and try to tear Shavers head off quick, like Quarry did...otherwise he's in trouble...all Shavers needed to do was wait for a clean shot and it was over 9 times out of 10.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:19

HomicideHenry wrote: If anyone could knock Tua out, it would have been Earnie Shavers. Only draw back with Shavers is that his conditioning was shit and he had a fairly soft chin...

There was nothing wrong with his chin. Besides Quarry, all of his stoppages were as much from fatigue as anything else, and Quarry had to hit him about 50 times before he went down. Tua and Shavers both exhibited stamina problems at various times during their careers, but if they are both at their best this would have been fun while it lasted. I’d go with Shavers by KO inside of 5 rounds.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:27

Alot of people use the Tex Cobb fight as 'proof' that Shavers had a strong chin...I don't see it that way. Cobb was simply an arm puncher, there was no weight behind his punches and it was sloppy and looked more or less like forearm punches and slaps. The result was a mildly entertaining fight, with Shavers so fatigued he couldn't continue [plus a cut over his eye].

Yes Shavers was passed his best, and was blind in one eye, but his power was such that even then he was ranked considerably high by the WBC and was originally to face off against Gerry Cooney...had he fought Cooney, he would have been knocked out cold.

I guess what I am saying is that, had Shavers fought a guy with real power and threw punches with bad intentions, he would have been beaten. It might have taken Quarry "50 punches" as you say to have done it, but it was done nonetheless.

A harder puncher than Quarry would have beaten him sooner.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:36

Besides Quarry, please name one other fight where Shavers was KD when he wasn't exhausted. And yes it is relevant that it took a boatload of punches for Quarry to drop him. And Quarry was a pretty hard puncher.

Do you also say that Foreman has a "soft" chin because he was dropped by Ali and the light hitting Young?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:47

Shavers' chin was pretty good (but not great). Holmes, Lyle, Mercado etc. had to land the kitchen sink on Shavers before Earnie wilted (or the ref stepped in). He took some INCREDIBLE wallops from Roy Williams, a very hard puncher, before miraculously coming back and knocking out Williams. I'm just not sure about this matchup. Tua has the power to put Shavers in a bad way but Shavers if he fights smart could win a decision. I say Shavers UD in which both fighters are hurt.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:55

No I don't say Foreman is soft chinned. He done proved he wasn't when he came back against Holyfield and Moorer and Stewart and others. If he couldn't get knocked out then, then nobody could knock him out. The Ali "KO" is a joke, I consider it a TKO considering Foreman went down and came up at 9, but walked away. He wasnt hurt or light headed, his pride was crushed and he gave up. Young was simply a matter of dehydration.

As far as Shavers goes, there wasn't that many men who were willing or were capable enough to trade shots with him. Before he fought Ali, the majority of Shavers opponents were second and third tire journeyman, more or less club fighters. They didn't stand a chance.

Place Shavers in with power punchers with credibility like a Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey, who came out fast and winging shots as hard and as quick as they could...Shavers would get blown away.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 21 Nov 2007, 18:14

Shavers' chin was OK in my view, but nothing I would want to rely on. My opinion falls somewhere between Homicide & John L.

As for the rest of Shavers, he truly wasn't anything special. Tua, in shape, did not suffer serious stamina issues. Anyone who has seen the Ibeabuchi contest will agree with me. Shavers' endurance on the other hand --- much like the rest of his attributes, was less than impressive.

Tua had a truly concrete chin. I think there is a chance he would survive Shavers' best, though not in repeated doses IMO. On the other side of the coin, Shavers will have to be carried out if he eats a Tua left hook.

Two big punchers, who are otherwise limited. One can take it much better than the other --- I'll favour Tua.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 22 Nov 2007, 10:08

HomicideHenry wrote: As far as Shavers goes, there wasn't that many men who were willing or were capable enough to trade shots with him. Before he fought Ali, the majority of Shavers opponents were second and third tire journeyman, more or less club fighters. They didn't stand a chance.

Place Shavers in with power punchers with credibility like a Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey, who came out fast and winging shots as hard and as quick as they could...Shavers would get blown away.

Lyles power was pretty much on par with Foremans as evidenced by their fight and Shavers wasn't "blown away" by Lyle. As with all of his stoppages besides the Quarry fight Shavers was spent when Lyle came back and stopped him. And Quarry had to land dozens of power shots to drop Shavers. And that was a Shavers who did not have the benefit of top trainers like the other top HWs of the 70s.

You have done an excellent job side stepping my very simple and direct question. Name one fighter besides Quarry who dropped Shavers when he wasn't exhausted. Have you even watched an entire Shavers fight? His chin was actually quite good, but he tended to get winded due to either poor training or shooting his wad early. His defense wasn't that great, and he did get hit with many power shots. You're simply parroting the generally accepted (but incorrect) myth about Shavers.

You defended Foreman but there was nothing flukish about his stoppage by Ali. He got stopped after he was exhausted, just like Shavers stoppages. And yes he was up at 9, but are you telling me that you think Foreman could have finished that fight? And Young was a VERY light hitter and dropped George in their fight. Therefore, George must have had a soft chin.

You might want to checkout the Lyle-Shavers fight. Shavers managed to keep from getting dropped by Lyle until after he was spent, unlike Foreman, who was dropped twice and almost stopped very early in their fight. And Foreman had the top trainers in the game from the start of his career, unlike Shavers who fought much of his early career in obscurity.

And no, I think Foreman had a great chin, I'm just able to look beyond the simple records in Boxrec because I've actually seen these fights and know the facts behind the simple entries in the record books.

You are entitled to your opinion, but their is very little fact to substantiate that opinion.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 22 Nov 2007, 18:17

Calm down John L

take a chill pill...lets just agree to disagree.

All I was saying is, Shavers didn't fight that many successful power hitters, and had he fought a real killer like Frazier or Foreman, he probably would have gotten knocked out. Those are the only men I can think of from that era who had the fire power and the toughness enough to have taken the initiative against Shavers (other than Quarry).

Other than that, I can't say I know anyone outside of Quarry, who Shavers actually did fight, who could have knocked him out before he gotten tired. But then again, the 40 or so fights before facing Ali were, as I said before, against a majority of second and third tire journeyman, straight up club fighters who screamed palookaville.

But then again, Larry Holmes knocked out Earnie Shavers in the 11th round of a scheduled 15 rounder, and by that time Shavers had done went 15 with Ali and 12 (?) with Holmes before, so you can say Shavers was a more conditioned/experienced fighter by the rematch. And Larry Holmes was no Frazier or Foreman, and he wasn't blowing anyone away early unless they were absolute garbage or pushed too soon...also throw in the fact how Shavers had knocked down Holmes in that fight, as well.

Was he tired or did Holmes just upped the pace on Shavers?

Had Shavers fought Frazier, Foreman, Norton and some others who were bangers, I think it would have been more insightful on the out look of "The Acorn", but he didn't so we won't know.

As far as the Lyle fight, I never seen it, but Lyle was more of a boxer/puncher and it wouldn't have surprised me if he did more boxing than he would brawling against a man like Shavers. [Want to knock me on the 'boxer/puncher' thing go ahead, but he was more than even against Ali in 1975 coming into the 11th round].