Maxboxing.com - Doug Fischer

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 15 Dec 2007, 20:53

Is it just me, or is this guy a grade-A moron?

I was just reading his mailbag, and he's so disdainful of Floyd Mayweather's achievements. I'm not for one second saying that Floyd has fought the names or talents that SRL did, but he never cuts him any slack. I think it's because he had a personal thing against him.

He criticises fighters that Floyd has fought i.e. Judah, but having recently re-watched the Judah fight, Mayweather did bloody well not to get sparked cold. The Judah that fought that night would've beaten anyone in the WW division. His speed is frightening tbh. First time I've ever seen Floyd outsped so much. Had that Judah fought Hatton and caught him with that left hand that Floyd took in the first round, I fear it woulda been night night...

Anyway back on topic, does anyone else read MaxBoxing?

states · Post by **states** » 15 Dec 2007, 20:59

He definitely doesn't like Mayweather, it has to be said. It's a pretty long running thing. I've always felt he's been too hard on him.

chinny · Post by **chinny** » 15 Dec 2007, 21:10

Maxboxings is my fav mailbag and I have a lot of respect for Fisher and Steve Kim. Neither treats their audience like morons and they tend to back up their pointswith wel thought out arguments.

Have a look at Kims recent article on why the alphabets aren't neccessarily the scourge of the sport. Its called something like 'one champ per division - I'll dispute that' - I don't agree with him but he makes some valid points re fights we wouldn't otherwise see.

I think the anti Mayweather bias is more to do with the Max - Boxingtalk rivalry. Mayweather is (or used to be) on BT all the time and their publisher Greg Leon constantly kisses mayweathers arse.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 15 Dec 2007, 21:22

If it's about net favouritism, it shows just how stupid MB are.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:19

I have been reading maxboxing since its inception; from back in the old House Of Boxing days (remember that place??).

Dougie Fischer's mail bag is the best in the business and he usually offers a considered opinion and a good angle on the issues brought forward.

Its true that his approach is reflective of the general 'fan boy' type who send him emails and his 'son' references to fighters like Valero and his south cali bias is just part of his playing to the audience IMO; he might look like the school nerd but he knows his onions, don't ever doubt that.

I think the 'anti-Mayweather' bias you are referring to is an attempt to put PBF and his achievements into perspective. It is easy to wax lyrical about this defensive genius we see before us, but is he an equal of Sugar Ray Leonard for example (in terms of talent and achievement)? For me and Dougie it would seem, no.

Max box is one of the few boxing sites on the internet that is worth reading on a consistant basis. That fact alone sets it apart from the competition for me.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:24

A slight off shoot, but if anyone wants to see Dougie's 'son' the V-Nom Edwin Valero's fight from Cancun last night here is a streamed link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTmYo9feUn0

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:27

TerribleTerry wrote:Its true that his approach is reflective of the general 'fan boy' type who send him emails and his 'son' references to fighters like Valero and his south cali bias is just part of his playing to the audience IMO; he might look like the school nerd but he knows his onions, don't ever doubt that.

I have never doubted it. Since he covers boxing I'd expect him to know a fair bit. It's nothing to do with playing to the crowd though, he just doesn't like Mayweather on a personal level. He criticises most fighters he doesn't like personally, instead preferring to arselick brawlers like Edwin Valero.

I think the 'anti-Mayweather' bias you are referring to is an attempt to put PBF and his achievements into perspective. It is easy to wax lyrical about this defensive genius we see before us, but is he an equal of Sugar Ray Leonard for example (in terms of talent and achievement)? For me and Dougie it would seem, no.

He's as talented as Leonard, and he's as skilled, if not more so (defensively). People always wax lyrical about Sugar Ray Leonard, and rightly so, but I also think there are many flaws in people always putting him far ahead of Floyd, Jones etc.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:29

Dougie just wants to see Mayweather in the best welterweight fights. Nothing wrong with that.

Floyd's career has been great moneywise the past 2 years but it's not quite been legendary.

Fischer has conceded that Valero's skills have degraded etc so it's not like he's calling Edwin anything more than a sensational puncher.

I don't always agree with Dougie but he knows his stuff and I always read his mailbag.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:33

Southpaw Stylist wrote: I have never doubted it. Since he covers boxing I'd expect him to know a fair bit. It's nothing to do with playing to the crowd though, he just doesn't like Mayweather on a personal level. He criticises most fighters he doesn't like personally, instead preferring to arselick brawlers like Edwin Valero.

I stems from Mayweather negotiating his way through the 'waters' of weight divisons without always making the best/most dangerous fights available.

Brussels, Gatti and the like in recent years have hurt PBF's standing. As for being as talented as Ray Leonard? Perhaps. However, he has never tested himself in the extreme as Sugar Ray did so we cant tell if he has the resilience and ability to find the win against extreme adversity, as Leonard was forced to in his career.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:52

Margarito better than Judah?

Williams better than Judah?

Cotto yes, but the other two are not better than Zab Judah, especially the Zab that showed up that night. I watched it last night. Zab would've KOed Margarito that's for sure, if the same one turned up that fought Floyd.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:54

TerribleTerry wrote: As for being as talented as Ray Leonard? Perhaps. However, he has never tested himself in the extreme as Sugar Ray did so we cant tell if he has the resilience and ability to find the win against extreme adversity, as Leonard was forced to in his career.

Maybe because he was so coked up and underprepared? Both of which are likely and factual.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:56

Autobarn wrote:Dougie just wants to see Mayweather in the best welterweight fights. Nothing wrong with that.

Floyd's career has been great moneywise the past 2 years but it's not quite been legendary.

Fischer has conceded that Valero's skills have degraded etc so it's not like he's calling Edwin anything more than a sensational puncher.

I don't always agree with Dougie but he knows his stuff and I always read his mailbag.

I've MaxBoxing for years now, and Dougie changes his opinion and rationale every so often as to who or why such and such is the best fighter. If you watch the next round, he often says things just to disagree with Steve Kim, who in my opinion is more knowledgeable, and rational.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 08:58

Southpaw Stylist wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote: As for being as talented as Ray Leonard? Perhaps. However, he has never tested himself in the extreme as Sugar Ray did so we cant tell if he has the resilience and ability to find the win against extreme adversity, as Leonard was forced to in his career.
Maybe because he was so coked up and underprepared? Both of which are likely and factual.

Leonard strung out on coke when he beat Hearns in that great welterweight show down? Now that is quite a claim!

I wasnt thinking of Kevin Howard when I made that statement mate.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 16 Dec 2007, 09:00

Doug Fischer is pretty good, but his love in with James Toney was enough for me to never visit the site again :)

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 16 Dec 2007, 09:02

Twinkle Toes wrote:Doug Fischer is pretty good, but his love in with James Toney was enough for me to never visit the site again :)

He's always considered JT a bit of an asshole if I remember rightly, just a funny asshole.

Arbachakov · Post by **Arbachakov** » 16 Dec 2007, 15:18

Most of the maxboxing staff are hacks.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 15:45

SS, I hadnt read Fischer's mailbag before making my posts but having read it now I think its fairly clear why he isnt falling over himself to proclaim PBF the GOAT; they are the reasons I stated previously.

I think this reply from the mailbag sums his (and my) position up perfectly and it certainly doesnt make him a moron:

SRL cleaned out the 147-pound division. He fought Benitez (who had defeated Randy Sheilds, Carlos Palomino and Harold Westin), Duran (who had defeated Palomino at welterweight), and Hearns (who had defeated Pipino Cuevas, Bruce Curry and Sheilds). On his way to winning the WBC title that Benitez held, he beat Armando Muniz, Andy Price (who had wins over both Cuevas and Palomino), Sheilds and Ranzany.

The very good-to-great fighters Leonard beat and the contenders they beat comprised the welterweight top 10 of the late '70s, 1980 and '81.

Also, the combined records of Benitez, Duran and Hearns at the time Leonard fought them was 141-1-1. There's no question that all three welterweights that Leonard beat in a two-year span are hall of famers.

Don’t even mention SRR. He fought in the era of eight weight classes with only one world championship for each division. If there were four “major” world titles and 17 divisions like we have now, he would have at least won one “world title” at 135, 140, 147, 154, 160 and 168 pounds (and probably 175 pounds).

You claim Mayweather “cleaned out” three weight classes, but what division did he really clean out? The closest was at 130 pounds -- where he did beat an old master and title holder (Genaro Hernandez), a fellow undefeated titlist (Corrales) and two solid contenders (Hernandez & Chavez) -- but he never faced Joel Casamayor or Acelino Freitas, both of whom were undefeated title holders when he was still the WBC super featherweight titlist.

The only stud he fought at 135 pounds was Castillo. The other two lightweights he faced were fringe contenders at best -- Victor Sosa and Phillip Ndou (who was really a 130-pound prospect). By the way, Paul Spadafora and Leo Dorin were undefeated title holders who reigned at the same time Mayweather was the WBC titlist.

At 140 pounds, Mayweather only fought DeMarcus Corley, Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti, who had picked up the vacant WBC title that was stripped from Kostya Tszyu, the real champ at the time.

At 147, he's defeated Zab Judah (for a title that shouldn't have been up for grabs), Carlos Baldomir and Ricky Hatton. That's not what I would call cleaning out the division. Antonio Margarito has defeated more 147-pound contenders ranked by The Ring than Floyd has.

I can see why Mayweather fans feel the need to diss Margarito, but I'll never understand why they have to try and question Ray Leonard's credentials.

Anyway, this line from your email "6 belts 5 weights classes...HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE" made me chuckle.

I see you've been listening to that great boxing manager and historian Leonard Ellerbe.

Ever heard of a guy named Thomas Hearns (six titles, five weight classes - 147 through 175)? What about Oscar De La Hoya (eight titles, six weight classes)?

I know, I know, Mayweather’s never lost. That’s absolutely impressive, but when there are four major belts up for grabs and all these “junior” and “super” divisions, greatness can't just be about world titles in different weight classes.

World titles are nice, but now more than ever, a fighter's standing must be determined by the quality of his opposition.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 15:49

Ant Evans wrote:I've struggled to take Kim seriously since I learned he still lives with him mum... at age 35!

Could that not be due to his Korean heritage as opposed to him being some sort of weirdo mummy's boy, as we would view it from our western/UK perspective?

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/ol ... lture.html

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Dec 2007, 16:56

Southpaw Stylist wrote:Margarito better than Judah?

Williams better than Judah?

Cotto yes, but the other two are not better than Zab Judah, especially the Zab that showed up that night. I watched it last night. Zab would've KOed Margarito that's for sure, if the same one turned up that fought Floyd.

no, you do not know for sure. Judah is talented but mentally weak. Kostya Tszyu fvcking destroyed that clown.

You see 4 flashy rounds and then think with your dick!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Dec 2007, 16:57

Ant Evans wrote:I've struggled to take Kim seriously since I learned he still lives with him mum... at age 35!

and what about you and your steroid pumped pantomime acts?

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Dec 2007, 17:37

Autobarn wrote:
Ant Evans wrote:I've struggled to take Kim seriously since I learned he still lives with him mum... at age 35!
and what about you and your steroid pumped pantomime acts?

Ant you have just been OWNED!

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 16 Dec 2007, 17:37

Autobarn wrote:
Southpaw Stylist wrote:Margarito better than Judah?

Williams better than Judah?

Cotto yes, but the other two are not better than Zab Judah, especially the Zab that showed up that night. I watched it last night. Zab would've KOed Margarito that's for sure, if the same one turned up that fought Floyd.
no, you do not know for sure. Judah is talented but mentally weak. Kostya Tszyu fvcking destroyed that clown.

You see 4 flashy rounds and then think with your dick!

Whatever man.

sharry · Post by **sharry** » 16 Dec 2007, 17:57

met doug and steve in vegas both good lads , talked about boxing for a while

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 16 Dec 2007, 17:57

TerribleTerry wrote:SS, I hadnt read Fischer's mailbag before making my posts but having read it now I think its fairly clear why he isnt falling over himself to proclaim PBF the GOAT; they are the reasons I stated previously.

I think this reply from the mailbag sums his (and my) position up perfectly and it certainly doesnt make him a moron:

SRL cleaned out the 147-pound division. He fought Benitez (who had defeated Randy Sheilds, Carlos Palomino and Harold Westin), Duran (who had defeated Palomino at welterweight), and Hearns (who had defeated Pipino Cuevas, Bruce Curry and Sheilds). On his way to winning the WBC title that Benitez held, he beat Armando Muniz, Andy Price (who had wins over both Cuevas and Palomino), Sheilds and Ranzany.

The very good-to-great fighters Leonard beat and the contenders they beat comprised the welterweight top 10 of the late '70s, 1980 and '81.

Also, the combined records of Benitez, Duran and Hearns at the time Leonard fought them was 141-1-1. There's no question that all three welterweights that Leonard beat in a two-year span are hall of famers.

Don’t even mention SRR. He fought in the era of eight weight classes with only one world championship for each division. If there were four “major” world titles and 17 divisions like we have now, he would have at least won one “world title” at 135, 140, 147, 154, 160 and 168 pounds (and probably 175 pounds).

You claim Mayweather “cleaned out” three weight classes, but what division did he really clean out? The closest was at 130 pounds -- where he did beat an old master and title holder (Genaro Hernandez), a fellow undefeated titlist (Corrales) and two solid contenders (Hernandez & Chavez) -- but he never faced Joel Casamayor or Acelino Freitas, both of whom were undefeated title holders when he was still the WBC super featherweight titlist.

The only stud he fought at 135 pounds was Castillo. The other two lightweights he faced were fringe contenders at best -- Victor Sosa and Phillip Ndou (who was really a 130-pound prospect). By the way, Paul Spadafora and Leo Dorin were undefeated title holders who reigned at the same time Mayweather was the WBC titlist.

At 140 pounds, Mayweather only fought DeMarcus Corley, Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti, who had picked up the vacant WBC title that was stripped from Kostya Tszyu, the real champ at the time.

At 147, he's defeated Zab Judah (for a title that shouldn't have been up for grabs), Carlos Baldomir and Ricky Hatton. That's not what I would call cleaning out the division. Antonio Margarito has defeated more 147-pound contenders ranked by The Ring than Floyd has.

I can see why Mayweather fans feel the need to diss Margarito, but I'll never understand why they have to try and question Ray Leonard's credentials.

Anyway, this line from your email "6 belts 5 weights classes...HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE" made me chuckle.

I see you've been listening to that great boxing manager and historian Leonard Ellerbe.

Ever heard of a guy named Thomas Hearns (six titles, five weight classes - 147 through 175)? What about Oscar De La Hoya (eight titles, six weight classes)?

I know, I know, Mayweather’s never lost. That’s absolutely impressive, but when there are four major belts up for grabs and all these “junior” and “super” divisions, greatness can't just be about world titles in different weight classes.

World titles are nice, but now more than ever, a fighter's standing must be determined by the quality of his opposition.

Don't know what the problem is. The above analysis is 100 percent accurate.

I can't fault what Mayweather did against Dela Hoya and Hatton, two b+ grade wins, and Castillo was a b+ win as well.

But he hasn't cleared out a single division. He moved out of 130 just after Freitas and Casamayor had estabilshed themselves as truely world class by fighting eachother in an oft-forgotten classic.

He should be lavished praise for taking on Castillo first up at 135 -- and lavished just as much praise for giving him the rematch -- but after that his matchmaking left alot to be desired. Sosa was limited and Mayweather was woeful in his percentages-safety first cruise to victory; N'dou was a prospect at a weight below, Brussels was a shocking mismatch, Corely a gatekeeper, Gatti overrated by those who mistake excitement for class, Mitchell shot, Judah, a talented but flawed show pony that'd already been exposed as a flat track bully, and Baldomir a journeyman got lucky.

Mayweather's the best fighter on the planet right now, but Fischer's assessment is far closer to the truth than Mayweather's own, I'm afraid.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 16 Dec 2007, 18:29

TerribleTerry wrote:
You claim Mayweather “cleaned out” three weight classes, but what division did he really clean out? The closest was at 130 pounds -- where he did beat an old master and title holder (Genaro Hernandez), a fellow undefeated titlist (Corrales) and two solid contenders (Hernandez & Chavez) -- but he never faced Joel Casamayor or Acelino Freitas, both of whom were undefeated title holders when he was still the WBC super featherweight titlist.

The only stud he fought at 135 pounds was Castillo. The other two lightweights he faced were fringe contenders at best -- Victor Sosa and Phillip Ndou (who was really a 130-pound prospect). By the way, Paul Spadafora and Leo Dorin were undefeated title holders who reigned at the same time Mayweather was the WBC titlist.

At 140 pounds, Mayweather only fought DeMarcus Corley, Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti, who had picked up the vacant WBC title that was stripped from Kostya Tszyu, the real champ at the time.

At 147, he's defeated Zab Judah (for a title that shouldn't have been up for grabs), Carlos Baldomir and Ricky Hatton. That's not what I would call cleaning out the division. Antonio Margarito has defeated more 147-pound contenders ranked by The Ring than Floyd has..[/i]

So hes saying Mayweather hasn't fought the best in the said divisions because he missed:

Freitas - lost to Mayweather victim Corrales
Cassamoya - lost to Mayweather scalps Castillo & Corrales
Dorin - lost to Gatti
Spadafora - about to face Mayweather before going to prison, lost to Dorin who lost to Gatti who lost to Mayweather
Hatton - faced at 147
Tyszu - lost to Hatton who lost to Mayweather
Margarito - lost twice out of 6 against C+ Level
Cotto - Arrum wouldnt risk Cotto against Mayweather in 2005 when it was possibility