Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 05 Jan 2008, 10:50

Good work Tel- an enjoyable read that would have undoutedly taken some considerable time to draw together. You have not been wasting your Christmas break, post-turkey!

My post from the other thread was largely based around Tyson's style. I thought he minimised his shortcomings in stature and turned them from a negative to a positive (for the most part, although he welcomed clinches all too readily for such a small guy) in a unique manner.

I agree with Terry’s point that ultimately Tyson was exposed as an ‘on top’ fighter who could not overcome adversity in the same way that truly great fighters do. What I do take exception to is the statement that ‘In reality Tyson benefited from fast hands and scared foes’ – whilst the unbeaten Tyson certainly projected an intimidating aura I don’t think that his unique style (in terms of successful application) can be dismissed so lightly.

Tyson certainly had fast hands but he also closed distance wonderfully, bobbed and weaved with expert precision and unloaded sharp combinations whilst utilising an under rated jab (his reach was only 71” for Christ’s sake!). Tyson was a short-armed short guy operating in a land of giants. To cut such a swathe through the upper echelon of 80s heavyweights as Tyson did, required far more then merely quick hands and a convincing scowl.

Overall though it’s an interesting and well crafted piece. I look forward to part 2!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 05 Jan 2008, 12:47

Achievement overall - Lewis
Who I think would have won prime for prime - Tyson.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 05 Jan 2008, 12:51

stujones wrote:Achievement overall - Lewis
Who I think would have won prime for prime - Tyson.

I agree with that

Matt W · Post by **Matt W** » 05 Jan 2008, 13:36

Lewis on achievement, Lewis prime-for-prime for me.

Tyson was physically very gifted but wasn't the same fighter when things weren't going his way. I think people gloss over and find excuses for the fights in which he struggled rather than accept them as revealing a part of his make-up. Lewis tends not to be afforded this luxury and in my opinion is over-criticised for his weaknesses (which for me was not his chin but was complacency against inferior opposition).

I've thought for a long time that many memories of Tyson are coloured by the excitement he created, something that I enjoyed as much as the next man. I do feel though that his standing will slip over time as the next generation of fight fans judge him purely on achievement and not memories of their youth.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 05 Jan 2008, 14:51

Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.

The Tyson prime thing has always fascinated me.

Have you noticed that he was in his prime until about round 2 of the Douglas fight, then from round 3 onwards, he was shot!

How bizarre!!!

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 05 Jan 2008, 15:07

Terry D wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:
Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.
The Tyson prime thing has always fascinated me.

Have you noticed that he was in his prime until about round 2 of the Douglas fight, then from round 3 onwards, he was shot!

How bizarre!!!
Nah, he briefly was in his prime again when dropping Douglas, then was robbed by circumstance and his prime disappeared again. Until he defeated Bruno for the 2nd time, then it reapperared only to disappear once again when he lost to Holyfield, I think it ran away when it heard holyfield praying very loudly.

I think his prime must be a seperate thing that only pops-up when it feels like it, it is out there somewhere wondering the night!

I recall us having a little email exchange when I previously wrote about Tyson for RSR and we both expressed surprise over this prime thingy. It comes and goes willy-nilly and as it pleases in regards to Tyson!

LOL!!!!

Yes, I remember that previous article you wrote.

Once again, you've hit the nail on the head, with regards to Mr Tyson.

Matt W · Post by **Matt W** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:00

Great article Terry.

I do think that Bonecrusher was intimidated by Tyson, albeit not to the degree of, say, Seldon, as he didn't do anything to try and win the fight.

And something to throw into the pot - Tyson as one of the greatest ever on the night he beat Spinks I would very much dispute as in reality he didn't have to work hard to beat Spinks. Not to take anything away from what was a fantastic performance, but Tyson's deficiencies will still have been there that night but Spinks wasn't the man to expose them. Someone that could have stood up to that early charge - and throughout history there have been plenty that could have - may well have beaten him that night. After only seeing him for 89 seconds that night how can we claim he was one of the greatest ever on that basis? Bowe the night he beat Holyfield stands as a better example of 'on their best night' than Tyson vs Spinks does IMO.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:06

Matt W wrote:Great article Terry.

I do think that Bonecrusher was intimidated by Tyson, albeit not to the degree of, say, Seldon, as he didn't do anything to try and win the fight.

And something to throw into the pot - Tyson as one of the greatest ever on the night he beat Spinks I would very much dispute as in reality he didn't have to work hard to beat Spinks. Not to take anything away from what was a fantastic performance, but Tyson's deficiencies will still have been there that night but Spinks wasn't the man to expose them. Someone that could have stood up to that early charge - and throughout history there have been plenty that could have - may well have beaten him that night. After only seeing him for 89 seconds that night how can we claim he was one of the greatest ever on that basis? Bowe the night he beat Holyfield stands as a better example of 'on their best night' than Tyson vs Spinks does IMO.

Bonecrusher was definitely intimidated by Tyson; but the curious thing was, he needn't have been.

At that point in time, in the final round, he hurt Tyson more than Tyson had ever been hurt as pro.

Imagine he had landed that overhand Right about 4 rounds earlier & followed it up properly?

Tyson's so-called prime might have ended in March 1987!!!

Tunney · Post by **Tunney** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:17

Tyson > Lewis.

Prime Tyson would have KOed Lewis. Lewis was a tall, strong man with long arms that enabled him to develop a great jab, but at no time in his career was he as good a fighter as Tyson was in the late 80's!

Matt W · Post by **Matt W** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:34

Tunney - but on that logic you could say the same about Tua and Ruddock.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:43

Tunney wrote:Tyson > Lewis.

Prime Tyson would have KOed Lewis. Lewis was a tall, strong man with long arms that enabled him to develop a great jab, but at no time in his career was he as good a fighter as Tyson was in the late 80's!

After all, a journeyman named McCall who wasn't a good of a puncher as Tyson managed to KO Lennox, so Tyson would surely have knocked him out...

McCall never fought a prime Lennox Lewis, just as the likes of Danny Williams and Brian McBride(now there is an example of a journeyman, not Oliver "world champion" McCall...)never fought a prime Mike Tyson.

A prime Tyson would not have been able to defeat ANY true great heavyweight, from Lewis, Holyfield and Holmes right back past Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis and Johnson.
He was never tough enough.
It's easy knocking over guys you have already beat before they enter the ring, but meantally tough warriors like Lewis, Holyfield and the rest of the greats would have took Tyson to a place he did'nt like to be, a REAL fight, and whenever he found himself in such a situation, he lost.

When the going got tough, Tyson lost.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 05 Jan 2008, 16:53

yiddo14 wrote:
Tunney wrote:Tyson > Lewis.

Prime Tyson would have KOed Lewis. Lewis was a tall, strong man with long arms that enabled him to develop a great jab, but at no time in his career was he as good a fighter as Tyson was in the late 80's!

After all, a journeyman named McCall who wasn't a good of a puncher as Tyson managed to KO Lennox, so Tyson would surely have knocked him out...
McCall never fought a prime Lennox Lewis, just as the likes of Danny Williams and Brian McBride(now there is an example of a journeyman, not Oliver "world champion" McCall...)never fought a prime Mike Tyson.

A prime Tyson would not have been able to defeat ANY true great heavyweight, from Lewis, Holyfield and Holmes right back past Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis and Johnson.
He was never tough enough.
It's easy knocking over guys you have already beat before they enter the ring, but meantally tough warriors like Lewis, Holyfield and the rest of the greats would have took Tyson to a place he did'nt like to be, a REAL fight, and whenever he found himself in such a situation, he lost.

When the going got tough, Tyson lost.

100% correct.

A lot of people forget this when they summise Mike Tyson overall.

A truly great fighter needs to be able to handle pressure & fight back from adversity.

The only time did did anything resembling this was in the 2nd Ruddock fight, but even then, Razor did not put him under enough pressure, otherwise Razor could have won that fight.

n1ebf · Post by **n1ebf** » 05 Jan 2008, 17:03

Tunney wrote:Tyson > Lewis.

Prime Tyson would have KOed Lewis. Lewis was a tall, strong man with long arms that enabled him to develop a great jab, but at no time in his career was he as good a fighter as Tyson was in the late 80's!

at last somebody with some common sense enters the thread.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 05 Jan 2008, 17:18

Acheivement - Tyson - 21yr HW champ

Prime - Howvever Brief - Tyson

Take their primes and match them man for man - Only One winner

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 05 Jan 2008, 17:54

Terry D wrote:
NorthEastBoxingFan wrote:
Tunney wrote:Tyson > Lewis.

Prime Tyson would have KOed Lewis. Lewis was a tall, strong man with long arms that enabled him to develop a great jab, but at no time in his career was he as good a fighter as Tyson was in the late 80's!
at last somebody with some common sense enters the thread.
Green, Smith, Tucker, Douglas and Lewis. All have those qualities. Look how Tyson fared against them.

Tyson fans always say "Tyson by KO", they never care to explain beyond this.

Assuming you are a Lewis fan, and konwing how he fared v mccall, rahman and mercer, how confident would you be at him coming out round 1 v the Tyson who fought Williams, Spinks and Alex Stewart. Evan Larry Holmes begged Lennox for a fight but considered walking back to the dressing room v Tyson.

Look at Tyson Bruno x 2 and Tyson Lewis.

Lewis is a great fighter for his size, never be a better HW over 240 lb but he was made for 86-91 Tyson

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 05 Jan 2008, 18:03

I agree with some points to your article Terry, but I definitely think you've done Tyson a diservice. I agree that Tyson failed to come back from adversity and I have questioned his heart as well. A lot of times when Tyson was "knocked out" he didnt seem unconscious - just looked like he had had enough. However, Tyson at his peak (although brief) had fast hands, a difficult to hit bob and weave defense and punched in combinations that I've hardly ever seen from a heavyweight fighter. Was he shot whilst fighting Douglas? - bollocks corse he wasnt. But was he at his best? I think not - partying, lack of discipline, death of Cus and a lot of "yes" men around him lead to his defeat at the hands of Douglas. If he was in prime condition(mentally and physically) IMO he would have definitely beaten Douglas. Tyson was/is mentally weak but at his best(i.e best condition(mentally and physically) he beats Lewis. When Tyson actually moved his head like he used to he actually won a round against Lewis(the first). After this it was the"new" Tyson who has forgotten what a jab or combination is and throws one big punch at a time with non-existant head movement.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 05 Jan 2008, 18:27

Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.

Lewis for a big guy, wasn't particularly good at mauling, holding and tiring the man out. He did it vs the much slower Tua and to some extent vs Akinwande (although Akinwande and the altitude played a massive role there) - however, against Briggs, Klitchsko, and even brief moments of the McCall rematch - Lewis looked a little clueless at times and it seemed a case more of them conking (mentally and physically) themselves out as opposed to a dramatic change of tactics that helped. I have never doubted Lewis' chin.... its not the strongest of all time, but he's no china chin.

Tyson was spent after a round in their actual contest.... no this isn't me as a Tyson fan making excuses - this was apparent when there was a break in the action - cannot remember the indiscretion in the 2nd round, and you can see Tyson doubling over and gasping..... Tyson won the first round and I think Tyson of his prime could have sustained that for 7 / 8 rounds and it would have won him the fight. He would have worn Lewis out. One thing their actual fight showed was that a slow, non moving, fat, old and tired Tyson could take full blooded Lewis bombs on a regular basis for 8 rounds. Believe it or not, that fight actually made me more convinced of a prime Tyson beating Lewis than before they met. I always thought that if Lewis caught Tyson right he would fall - no matter how fresh Tyson was or how early in the contest... I don't think that the case.

Tyson KO 6.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 05 Jan 2008, 19:54

stujones wrote:
Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.
Lewis for a big guy, wasn't particularly good at mauling, holding and tiring the man out. He did it vs the much slower Tua and to some extent vs Akinwande (although Akinwande and the altitude played a massive role there) - however, against Briggs, Klitchsko, and even brief moments of the McCall rematch - Lewis looked a little clueless at times and it seemed a case more of them conking (mentally and physically) themselves out as opposed to a dramatic change of tactics that helped. I have never doubted Lewis' chin.... its not the strongest of all time, but he's no china chin.

Tyson was spent after a round in their actual contest.... no this isn't me as a Tyson fan making excuses - this was apparent when there was a break in the action - cannot remember the indiscretion in the 2nd round, and you can see Tyson doubling over and gasping..... Tyson won the first round and I think Tyson of his prime could have sustained that for 7 / 8 rounds and it would have won him the fight. He would have worn Lewis out. One thing their actual fight showed was that a slow, non moving, fat, old and tired Tyson could take full blooded Lewis bombs on a regular basis for 8 rounds. Believe it or not, that fight actually made me more convinced of a prime Tyson beating Lewis than before they met. I always thought that if Lewis caught Tyson right he would fall - no matter how fresh Tyson was or how early in the contest... I don't think that the case.

Tyson KO 6.

Prime for prime, Tyson would have to win early. If it got to 6 Lewis jab would be like a piston, and the right hand comes off it lovely.

I really fancy Tyson in 1 or 2, but past 6 Lewis has the upper hand.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 05 Jan 2008, 20:36

KO Artist wrote:
stujones wrote:
Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.
Lewis for a big guy, wasn't particularly good at mauling, holding and tiring the man out. He did it vs the much slower Tua and to some extent vs Akinwande (although Akinwande and the altitude played a massive role there) - however, against Briggs, Klitchsko, and even brief moments of the McCall rematch - Lewis looked a little clueless at times and it seemed a case more of them conking (mentally and physically) themselves out as opposed to a dramatic change of tactics that helped. I have never doubted Lewis' chin.... its not the strongest of all time, but he's no china chin.

Tyson was spent after a round in their actual contest.... no this isn't me as a Tyson fan making excuses - this was apparent when there was a break in the action - cannot remember the indiscretion in the 2nd round, and you can see Tyson doubling over and gasping..... Tyson won the first round and I think Tyson of his prime could have sustained that for 7 / 8 rounds and it would have won him the fight. He would have worn Lewis out. One thing their actual fight showed was that a slow, non moving, fat, old and tired Tyson could take full blooded Lewis bombs on a regular basis for 8 rounds. Believe it or not, that fight actually made me more convinced of a prime Tyson beating Lewis than before they met. I always thought that if Lewis caught Tyson right he would fall - no matter how fresh Tyson was or how early in the contest... I don't think that the case.

Tyson KO 6.
Prime for prime, Tyson would have to win early. If it got to 6 Lewis jab would be like a piston, and the right hand comes off it lovely.

I really fancy Tyson in 1 or 2, but past 6 Lewis has the upper hand.

Thats passed it Tyson who would gas... yes, the longer the fight wears on the more it would favour Lewis - but the Thomas and Biggs fights showed that Tyson could up it a gear in his pomp and was so hard to hit clean. He would find it hard to find Lewis clean early (as he did in the opener of their fight) - but I think Body shots and the fatigue of the big man (remember the Mavrovic fight in which is guard had dissapeared by the half way point) means that Lewis would become easier to hit.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Jan 2008, 21:14

Terry D wrote:
stujones wrote:
Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.
Lewis for a big guy, wasn't particularly good at mauling, holding and tiring the man out. He did it vs the much slower Tua and to some extent vs Akinwande (although Akinwande and the altitude played a massive role there) - however, against Briggs, Klitchsko, and even brief moments of the McCall rematch - Lewis looked a little clueless at times and it seemed a case more of them conking (mentally and physically) themselves out as opposed to a dramatic change of tactics that helped. I have never doubted Lewis' chin.... its not the strongest of all time, but he's no china chin.

Tyson was spent after a round in their actual contest.... no this isn't me as a Tyson fan making excuses - this was apparent when there was a break in the action - cannot remember the indiscretion in the 2nd round, and you can see Tyson doubling over and gasping..... Tyson won the first round and I think Tyson of his prime could have sustained that for 7 / 8 rounds and it would have won him the fight. He would have worn Lewis out. One thing their actual fight showed was that a slow, non moving, fat, old and tired Tyson could take full blooded Lewis bombs on a regular basis for 8 rounds. Believe it or not, that fight actually made me more convinced of a prime Tyson beating Lewis than before they met. I always thought that if Lewis caught Tyson right he would fall - no matter how fresh Tyson was or how early in the contest... I don't think that the case.

Tyson KO 6.
I disagree Stu, he mauled VK, turned it into a dog fight then won the fight legitimately. He also did it against Tyson and would often tie a guy then lean on his back, all good stuff for tiring the guy out.

As for Tyson being out of the fight after winning round 1. Do you seriously think he only had 3 minutes in him? How, then, do you explain the good rounds he had against Williams? the fact is that many people give Tyson round 1 of the fight but round 1 won Lewis the fight.

tyson came out blazing somewhat but right at the end of the round Lewis hits him with a right uppercut and throws a wild right hand and who is it that backs-up? Tough guy Mike. Mentally that was him jacking the fight and LEwis just did the careful thing, again showing that he would never get caught the way he did against the others when taking on Tyson, and took Tyson out.

People talk about Lewis tiring in fights but he always came through these patches and won them. Tyson rarely did this. Once he was faded he was done. Not quite the same with Lewis.

As for "past it Tyson", Lewis was not in his pomp either, the Rahman fight showed this, he was pretty rubbery himself but again he was smarter and far tougher than Tyson and that is the main point of them for me.

Tyson entered the ring against Lewis with the air of a man walking to his own execution, he was enough of a student of the game that he had zero chance of beating Lewis at that point in his career. Williams was a different proposition, Tyson thought he could still trounce Williams, and almost did.

Tyson was also on some pretty heavy duty medication during his training camp, prescribed to him to counteract his mental condition. Personally I don't think Tyson should have been fighting at all at that point. Medication or not, Lewis would have thumped the living daylights out of him.

Lewis was far nearer his pomp that Tyson was, sure, he lost to Rahman, but he lost because he was arrogant, lazy and complacent during his training camp, and took Rahman far too lightly.

Vitali K is not Tyson, he is a big, slow and lumbering man, and Lewis always liked fighting big men, he smashed them to pieces. Even a faded Lewis was too good for Vitali, despite taking some big shots early on, Lewis was going to take Vitali apart as the fight went on.

Lewis would have had to ride out one hell of a storm early on against a prime Tyson, maybe he would have lasted long enough to frustrate Mike, but conversely, it's quite possible Mike would have got to him with body shots early on, and one thing I think we can all agree on, is that If Tyson landed a full blooded bomb on Lewis' chin, he would definetly have gone. Tyson would only have had to find one big shot and it would all be over.

As Stu said, Tyson took bomb after bomb off of Lewis, and the fact that it took so many rounds of punishment to finish him off, does not bode well when we consider what a young and voracious Tyson might have done in there. Tyson had one hell of a chin even late in his career, nobody ever dropped Tyson with a single shot, it took a sustained beating to put him on his ass.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 05 Jan 2008, 21:47

Syntax Error wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
Tunney wrote:Tyson > Lewis.

Prime Tyson would have KOed Lewis. Lewis was a tall, strong man with long arms that enabled him to develop a great jab, but at no time in his career was he as good a fighter as Tyson was in the late 80's!

After all, a journeyman named McCall who wasn't a good of a puncher as Tyson managed to KO Lennox, so Tyson would surely have knocked him out...
McCall never fought a prime Lennox Lewis, just as the likes of Danny Williams and Brian McBride(now there is an example of a journeyman, not Oliver "world champion" McCall...)never fought a prime Mike Tyson.

A prime Tyson would not have been able to defeat ANY true great heavyweight, from Lewis, Holyfield and Holmes right back past Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis and Johnson.
He was never tough enough.
It's easy knocking over guys you have already beat before they enter the ring, but meantally tough warriors like Lewis, Holyfield and the rest of the greats would have took Tyson to a place he did'nt like to be, a REAL fight, and whenever he found himself in such a situation, he lost.

When the going got tough, Tyson lost.
100% correct.

A lot of people forget this when they summise Mike Tyson overall.

A truly great fighter needs to be able to handle pressure & fight back from adversity.

The only time did did anything resembling this was in the 2nd Ruddock fight, but even then, Razor did not put him under enough pressure, otherwise Razor could have won that fight.

1st ruddock fight as well.

when he was hurt in the 6th and came roaring back to stop razor in the 7th.

the bully thing is overplayed with tyson i think.

course he intimidated plenty.

but he also had to deal with a few that weren't intimidated.

i think lewis would have always been a difficult fight for tyson.

i would favour lewis at any stage in mikey boys career.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 05 Jan 2008, 21:58

hitman_hatton1 wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:
yiddo14 wrote: McCall never fought a prime Lennox Lewis, just as the likes of Danny Williams and Brian McBride(now there is an example of a journeyman, not Oliver "world champion" McCall...)never fought a prime Mike Tyson.

Prime v Prime, I would have to fancy Tyson. Who with a less than concrete chin lasted with a prime Tyson?

A prime Tyson would not have been able to defeat ANY true great heavyweight, from Lewis, Holyfield and Holmes right back past Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis and Johnson.
He was never tough enough.
It's easy knocking over guys you have already beat before they enter the ring, but meantally tough warriors like Lewis, Holyfield and the rest of the greats would have took Tyson to a place he did'nt like to be, a REAL fight, and whenever he found himself in such a situation, he lost.

When the going got tough, Tyson lost.
100% correct.

A lot of people forget this when they summise Mike Tyson overall.

A truly great fighter needs to be able to handle pressure & fight back from adversity.

The only time did did anything resembling this was in the 2nd Ruddock fight, but even then, Razor did not put him under enough pressure, otherwise Razor could have won that fight.
1st ruddock fight as well.

when he was hurt in the 6th and came roaring back to stop razor in the 7th.

the bully thing is overplayed with tyson i think.

course he intimidated plenty.

but he also had to deal with a few that weren't intimidated.

i think lewis would have always been a difficult fight for tyson.

i would favour lewis at any stage in mikey boys career.

But would you put a lot of money on Lewis lasting 2 rounds?

How would a prime Lennox done against Berbick Smith Tucker etc? Remember a faded Tucker gave Lewis a tough fight.

Tysons style was not suited to going backwards, same as Lewis was not suited to going forward throwing combos.

Tyson was acually very similar to a 135lb Duran in so far as he was a pressure fighter and a couter puncher at the same time. He could make you miss standing a foot way from you. Duran was a better in fighter.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 05 Jan 2008, 22:21

KO Artist wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote:
Syntax Error wrote: 100% correct.

A lot of people forget this when they summise Mike Tyson overall.

A truly great fighter needs to be able to handle pressure & fight back from adversity.

The only time did did anything resembling this was in the 2nd Ruddock fight, but even then, Razor did not put him under enough pressure, otherwise Razor could have won that fight.
1st ruddock fight as well.

when he was hurt in the 6th and came roaring back to stop razor in the 7th.

the bully thing is overplayed with tyson i think.

course he intimidated plenty.

but he also had to deal with a few that weren't intimidated.

i think lewis would have always been a difficult fight for tyson.

i would favour lewis at any stage in mikey boys career.
But would you put a lot of money on Lewis lasting 2 rounds?

How would a prime Lennox done against Berbick Smith Tucker etc? Remember a faded Tucker gave Lewis a tough fight.
Tysons style was not suited to going backwards, same as Lewis was not suited to going forward throwing combos.

Tyson was acually very similar to a 135lb Duran in so far as he was a pressure fighter and a couter puncher at the same time. He could make you miss standing a foot way from you. Duran was a better in fighter.

different fights different nights.

not many would have tipped judah to go 12 with floyd and hatton to only go 10.

lewis would have been completely focused on tyson. just like he was when he boxed the faded version in 2002.

i think tyson would have made it much more competitive than the 2002 version did.

but i believe lewis spoils enuff and gets thru the early storm. lewis begins to time tyson on the way in and pounds out either a decision or a late stoppage.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Jan 2008, 07:45

Terry D wrote:
stujones wrote:
Terry D wrote:When was Tyson's prime? If it was during his "reign of terror" then he was tied-up and negated by Tucker, Green and Smith, none of whom had the ice cold intimidation of Lewis or his physical attributes.

It is not a massive leap to say if they can stop Tyson working Lewis can stop him working and defeat him.

If you shore-off Tyson's prime and seal it around the Spinks fight you have to say that this is unrealistic and shows him as a fighter who faded insanely fast, so why not suppose even at his absolute peak he was a fast fading fighter in fights themselves and again would be defeated by Lewis.

If you draw a line under him around the Douglas fight then it is clearly to be seen that he has no chance of beating Lewis.

Tyson fans have blurring ideas of when he was in his prime but none of them lead you to think that he could beat Lewis, who hit his prime physically and mentally late-on after learning his lesson, as opposed to tyson who hit a physical peak but was always mentally suspect and never truly peaked physically and mentally.
Lewis for a big guy, wasn't particularly good at mauling, holding and tiring the man out. He did it vs the much slower Tua and to some extent vs Akinwande (although Akinwande and the altitude played a massive role there) - however, against Briggs, Klitchsko, and even brief moments of the McCall rematch - Lewis looked a little clueless at times and it seemed a case more of them conking (mentally and physically) themselves out as opposed to a dramatic change of tactics that helped. I have never doubted Lewis' chin.... its not the strongest of all time, but he's no china chin.

Tyson was spent after a round in their actual contest.... no this isn't me as a Tyson fan making excuses - this was apparent when there was a break in the action - cannot remember the indiscretion in the 2nd round, and you can see Tyson doubling over and gasping..... Tyson won the first round and I think Tyson of his prime could have sustained that for 7 / 8 rounds and it would have won him the fight. He would have worn Lewis out. One thing their actual fight showed was that a slow, non moving, fat, old and tired Tyson could take full blooded Lewis bombs on a regular basis for 8 rounds. Believe it or not, that fight actually made me more convinced of a prime Tyson beating Lewis than before they met. I always thought that if Lewis caught Tyson right he would fall - no matter how fresh Tyson was or how early in the contest... I don't think that the case.

Tyson KO 6.
I disagree Stu, he mauled VK, turned it into a dog fight then won the fight legitimately. He also did it against Tyson and would often tie a guy then lean on his back, all good stuff for tiring the guy out.

As for Tyson being out of the fight after winning round 1. Do you seriously think he only had 3 minutes in him? How, then, do you explain the good rounds he had against Williams? the fact is that many people give Tyson round 1 of the fight but round 1 won Lewis the fight.

tyson came out blazing somewhat but right at the end of the round Lewis hits him with a right uppercut and throws a wild right hand and who is it that backs-up? Tough guy Mike. Mentally that was him jacking the fight and LEwis just did the careful thing, again showing that he would never get caught the way he did against the others when taking on Tyson, and took Tyson out.

People talk about Lewis tiring in fights but he always came through these patches and won them. Tyson rarely did this. Once he was faded he was done. Not quite the same with Lewis.

As for "past it Tyson", Lewis was not in his pomp either, the Rahman fight showed this, he was pretty rubbery himself but again he was smarter and far tougher than Tyson and that is the main point of them for me.

Tyson was in a little bit better shape vs Williams - but still was spent after two rounds.

Yes, Tyson only had 3 minutes in him. He was knackered after 3 rounds hitting a punch bag that was Brian Neilson.

I agree with your views on Lewis' stamina - but Tyson in his prime was a 12 round fighter... and Lewis although invariably would win his fights where he was tiring never faced a fighter of the quality of Tyson in those situations.

Of course Lewis won the fight vs Klitchsko - but he was still making mistakes (admittedly past his prime)... mistakes he couldn't afford vs Tyson.

Was Lewis past his prime vs Tyson - mmm a debatable one. I actually think his rematch win over Rahman was a career best performance.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Jan 2008, 07:59

Terry D wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Terry D wrote: I disagree Stu, he mauled VK, turned it into a dog fight then won the fight legitimately. He also did it against Tyson and would often tie a guy then lean on his back, all good stuff for tiring the guy out.

As for Tyson being out of the fight after winning round 1. Do you seriously think he only had 3 minutes in him? How, then, do you explain the good rounds he had against Williams? the fact is that many people give Tyson round 1 of the fight but round 1 won Lewis the fight.

tyson came out blazing somewhat but right at the end of the round Lewis hits him with a right uppercut and throws a wild right hand and who is it that backs-up? Tough guy Mike. Mentally that was him jacking the fight and LEwis just did the careful thing, again showing that he would never get caught the way he did against the others when taking on Tyson, and took Tyson out.

People talk about Lewis tiring in fights but he always came through these patches and won them. Tyson rarely did this. Once he was faded he was done. Not quite the same with Lewis.

As for "past it Tyson", Lewis was not in his pomp either, the Rahman fight showed this, he was pretty rubbery himself but again he was smarter and far tougher than Tyson and that is the main point of them for me.

Tyson entered the ring against Lewis with the air of a man walking to his own execution, he was enough of a student of the game that he had zero chance of beating Lewis at that point in his career. Williams was a different proposition, Tyson thought he could still trounce Williams, and almost did.

Tyson was also on some pretty heavy duty medication during his training camp, prescribed to him to counteract his mental condition. Personally I don't think Tyson should have been fighting at all at that point. Medication or not, Lewis would have thumped the living daylights out of him.

Lewis was far nearer his pomp that Tyson was, sure, he lost to Rahman, but he lost because he was arrogant, lazy and complacent during his training camp, and took Rahman far too lightly.

Vitali K is not Tyson, he is a big, slow and lumbering man, and Lewis always liked fighting big men, he smashed them to pieces. Even a faded Lewis was too good for Vitali, despite taking some big shots early on, Lewis was going to take Vitali apart as the fight went on.

Lewis would have had to ride out one hell of a storm early on against a prime Tyson, maybe he would have lasted long enough to frustrate Mike, but conversely, it's quite possible Mike would have got to him with body shots early on, and one thing I think we can all agree on, is that If Tyson landed a full blooded bomb on Lewis' chin, he would definetly have gone. Tyson would only have had to find one big shot and it would all be over.

As Stu said, Tyson took bomb after bomb off of Lewis, and the fact that it took so many rounds of punishment to finish him off, does not bode well when we consider what a young and voracious Tyson might have done in there. Tyson had one hell of a chin even late in his career, nobody ever dropped Tyson with a single shot, it took a sustained beating to put him on his ass.
Tyson always faded late in his fights and Lewis was smart to make sure the time was right to take him out, again that is the lesson he learned. He also had no call to be rash as Tyson was not a threat in general. He rarely scored late KO's when up in the higher level and again Lewis is no Ribalta, one of the last men he KO'd very late.

Lewis' movement was not as good as it had been, he moved much better, and was a two-fisted fighter, around the time of the Morrison fight.

You yourself say he may have frustrated Mike and once this happened when did Mike ever do anything other than cheat or clinch? Lewis could show strength against VK and Tua so no problems with clinching Mike who was always a willing dance partner in that respect. Frustration = defeat for Mike.

You might want to point out that Tyson broke down Pinklon Thomas but that guy had been through various problems so give him the excuses you furnish Tyson with. Give it also to a number of guys Tyson beat and see who remains for his record.

Tyson always took a sustained beating and Lewis was always the man to give him one. Tyson has this great body hunter is another of the myths, as is the idea that even if you get past him early you take such a beating he gets you late, or that his jab was awesome all the time, not if you are top quality and it is beyond round 7-8. These are the types of things that led the likes of Bunce into thinking even the tired Tyson would beat Lewis on points, it is never going to happen, nor is a Tyson mid-to-late rounds KO. There is no evidence to support it but plenty to support him going into the silent "we'll just clinch" contract then Lewis ripping it up and taking him apart.

There is not alot of evidence that Tyson ALWAYS faded in his fights in his pomp either... he only went the distance twice.

Pinklon Thomas might have had some problems, but he was deemed a legitimate threat - some experts actually tipped him. He was considered a tad unfortunate to lose his title to Berbick in his only career defeat at the time... and he'd beaten some damn good fighters. Tyson just got stronger as the fight wore on.... his greatest performance by far. People talk about Greg Page and Tony Tubbs being the most talented of the junkie generation, I don't know - I think Thomas was.

A similar performance was put in against Tyrell Biggs - but Biggs was far less proven than Thomas and never fulfilled his potential.

Sure there was a silent contract clinch fest vs Tucker and Smith - but I don't think Tyson "faded" in these fights. However, even if he did - I don't think it would need to go late.... By the 6th/7th round - Lewis would have been making the mistakes he made when tired, cause of the pace that Tyson set - the mistakes the Biggs/Thomas made, the mistakes that Lewis always made... and Tyson would have capitalised.

Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson

Overall, Lewis or Tyson?