Two Sam Langford questions

[tagjohnson]

What was Sam Langford's usual and/or best weight at heavweight? His weight is only given twice in his entry at boxrec once at 185 and another time at 187 both very late in his career. Second, he fought Harry Wills over twenty times, is this the record for two fighters meeting the most number of time?

[dagosd2000]

If you analyze what this fighter did,it's almost light years ahead of what any other fighter accomplished. He fought Wills at least 23 times,Sam McVey 14 times,Joe Jeanette 14times,Jeff Clarke 13times. He weighed 156lbs. when he fought Jack Johnson in 1906. He fought Philadelphia Jack O'Brien,Stanley Ketchel,Joe Gans,Joe Walcott,Kid Norfolk, Jim Flynn,Jack Blackburn,knocked out Tiger Flowers in 1922 at the age of 39. Was blinded in his left eye by Fred Fulton in 1917. By 1907 he could fight at 180 lbs. Most of his bouts with heavyweights,depending on his opponent's weight,Sam was giving up 20 to 40 lbs.

[harrygreb]

sam's an absolute boxing one-off legend

[Crease]

I don't know much about Langford, only what I hear of him (as I haven't seen any of his fights)....

BUT, if Langford was fighting today, what weight would he be fighting at? And what boxer resembles his fighting style?

[barry]

As far as records go Langford is in the group of fighters who not only barred no one, but he fought nearly every top fighter of his day from lightweight to heavyweight.

As for the best record with the best overall competition...Harry Greb has a record that is very tough to beat. Maxie Rosenbloom is another though he does not get the same kind of support that other get due to his lack on knockouts, but Rosenbloom simply fought just about everyone of note from 175 to heavyweight.

Clay Moyle's book on Langford should be out some time this year and it is the most complete record of Sam Langford's career that has ever been written, so I would recommend everyone to purchase the book when it comes out as it will tell the life of one of boxing's all-time legends!

[Collins2000]

As far as records go Langford is in the group of fighters who not only barred no one, but he fought nearly every top fighter of his day from lightweight to heavyweight.

As for the best record with the best overall competition...Harry Greb has a record that is very tough to beat. Maxie Rosenbloom is another though he does not get the same kind of support that other get due to his lack on knockouts, but Rosenbloom simply fought just about everyone of note from 175 to heavyweight.

Clay Moyle's book on Langford should be out some time this year and it is the most complete record of Sam Langford's career that has ever been written, so I would recommend everyone to purchase the book when it comes out as it will tell the life of one of boxing's all-time legends!

Clay is a real boxing historian.

[pound per pound]

I don't know much about Langford, only what I hear of him (as I haven't seen any of his fights)....

BUT, if Langford was fighting today, what weight would he be fighting at? And what boxer resembles his fighting style?

Langford on film looks a bit like Dwight Quai, but he's better than that. Sam had inside and outside skills, rare guts / toughness, and power.

Not much of a jabber, Sam liked to force the action. He's a bit like Jack Dempsey minus the foot speed.

I think Langford would be the #1 light heavy or cruiser today. I think Langford could be one of the 4 champs at heavy despite being about 5'7" tall.

Langford wasn't small. He was just compact. I have his fight films and work out clips. Sam's built like an NFL running back. He has big shoulders, a strong back, solid legs, and long arms.

[barry]

---Clay is a real boxing historian.---

You are correct...thats why he and I correspond and share data with one another...among our many other research associates...maybe if you would straighten up your act collins, then I might even put in a good word for you in the research community. But you will have to do several years of serious boxing study because right now you just simply do not know enough about boxing history to qualify, but I'm rooting for you to make it!

[tagjohnson]

Do any of you "experts" actually know the answers to my questions? I really do not appreciate my serious post being turned into a catfight.

[granberry]

Do any of you "experts" actually know the answers to my questions? I really do not appreciate my serious post being turned into a catfight.

Welterweight champions Ted Kid Lewis and Jack Britton fought 19 times--if I count correctly.

Look up the following fighters:

Young Stribling fought his chauffer numerous times.

Langford fought Harry Wills, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette, and Jim Barry numerous times each.

Frankie Jerome and Packey O'Gatty fought a large number of times.

Johnny Dundee and Willie Jackson

Johnny Dundee and Benny Leonard

Benny Leonard and Phil Bloom

Battling Levinsky and Jack Dillon

Harry Greb and Fay Keiser

Pancho Villa and Mike Ballarino

[I Feel Fine]

I was going to use that example but I double checked first and apparently Lewis and Britton fought twenty times, so if Langford and Wills fought more than twenty times then that wouldn't be an example of two fighters who fought more.

[barry]

tagjohnson---I apologize for my part in running your post off-topic, but this is typical collins and granberry behavior...they follow me around the internet like a couple of stalkers, either stalkers or I must be their idol, or something and collins has actually been banned from other forums for his behavior...they have done this for several years now, which looks like they would actually get a life instead of worrying about what I am doing all the time, but sorry that it entered into your thread.

Charlie Goldman claimed to have fought George Kitson between 25 and 50 different times! The fighters of the 1900-1925 era had a lot of series bouts. I've got a pretty good list somewhere.

As to the fights that granberry mentioned, you may want to take that with much skepticism as the numbers are most likely a bit off as grans apparently took his list from one of the pre-1970 Ring Record Books which lists the fights he mentioned and the Ring Record Books are notoriously inaccurate...except the final RRB 1986-87, which is the most accurate of the set!

As to Langford, I have over 500+ pages of different Langford fight clips which I'd be glad to scan any that you might want to read and e-mail them to you. Below is some of the fight notes that I have taken from his newspaper clips. I still have quite a ways to go to finish paraphrasing his fights, but there may be some weights in these notes.

1903
May 8 vs. Andy Watson: The bout took place in Boston, Massachusetts: Andy Watson substituted for George McFadden, who injured his hand during training. This bout was a “pre-arranged” draw. Police Gazette
May 26 Chick Monahan Boston, MA W KO 2 PG
--Some sources list “KO 1.”
Jun 19 vs. Walter Burgo: The bout took place in Boston, Massachusetts: Burgo’s experience and his ability to take punishment allowed him to last eight of ten rounds against the far better Langford. Police Gazette
Jul 16 vs. Belfield Walcott: The bout took place in Scituate, RI (Saundersville AC): Walcott was the brother of the more famous, “Barbados” Joe Walcott. Scheduled for twenty rounds. For twelve rounds, the two fighters provided some of the most clever boxing ever witnessed in Rhode Island. In the thirteenth round, Langford landed several very effective hard punches to the body of his opponent, which had a telling effect on Walcott. For the remaining rounds both fighters were tired and seemed content to just evade as much punishment as possible. After the bell sounded ending the fight, referee John Sheehan awarded Langford the decision.
Police Gazette
Oct 5 vs. Arthur Cote: The bout took place in Boston, MA (American AA): Langford was the aggressor from the start and for five rounds he punished Cote, using his left with great success. Cote was on the verge of collapsing when his seconds threw up the sponge in the fifth round. Police Gazette
Nov 20 Patsy Sweeney Boston, MA (Lenox AC) W KO 12 PG
--Sweeney was 47-10-19 (32 KO) going into the bout and had very much the greater experience.
Dec 23 vs. Jack Blackburn: The bout took place in Boston, MA at the Central AC. This was the first meeting between these two greats.

1905
May 16 Bogardus Hyde Webster, MA (Lakeside AC) W TKO 3 PG
--Hyde’s seconds threw in the sponge after only three rounds.
Jun 16 vs. “Young” Peter Jackson: The bout took place in Chelsea, MA at the Douglas AC. Jackson exhibited a capacity for punishment that was equaled only by Joe Grim, but he kept Langford stepping pretty fast to keep out of the way of his wide swings. In the last round Sam had Jackson all but out hitting his opponent when and where he pleased, but Jackson was standing, or more correctly staggering, around the ring when the gong sounded ending the fight of fifteen rounds. Some sources list Jun 15. Washington Post

1906
Apr 26 vs. Jack Johnson: The bout took place in Chelsea, MA at the Lincoln AC. According to Boxrec, the contest was for the Colored Heavyweight Title. Going into the bout Johnson’s record was 48-6-9 (26 KO) 12 No Decisions, and Langford was 34-4-17 (19 KO) 1 No Decision and 2 No Contests. Langford deserved a lot of credit for lasting the distance in what most felt would be a sure knockout for the “Galveston Giant,” within ten rounds. Johnson had tremendous advantages in nearly every aspect. Johnson was several inches taller and had a weight advantage of twenty nine pounds (Johnson-185, Langford-156). In one of the early rounds, Johnson landed a hard punch to Sam’s left eye, which closed it causing Langford problems throughout the fight. Johnson tried everything in his game to put his opponent away, but Langford demonstrated the gameness and virility that made him the great fighter that he was. Whenever the two were in a clinch, Johnson threw all his weight down on Sam to tire him out. Jack landed often throwing jabs and hooks which found a home on Langford’s mug. Sam did some effective countering landing some nice shots to the head and body. The men wasted no time at the start both landing lefts. Sam quickly discovered that he could reach his taller opponent. Johnson closed the gap between the two and sent home some short rights effectively to Sam’s head, but Langford in return, Sam landed some decent counter shots to the body. The two mixed it up pretty good in the third and fourth rounds, but in the sixth it looked like it would only be a matter of time before Sam was down and out. After exchanging a few punches, Johnson got mad and went after Langford like a tiger. Lanford went down twice in the round, the first was from a powerful left hook and the second was from a hard right to the chin, which had Sam in bad shape, but he fought back well and by the end of the round, Johnson was just about as bad of as Sam was, mostly from exhaustion. Sam showed guts like few had ever saw, but was outclassed too much in nearly every aspect and while Sam did his share of effective fighting, johnbson pretty much dominated the entire fight and justly received the decision awarded by referee Maffit Flaherty. Newspaper Clip

1907
Jan 31 vs. Kid Williams: The bout took place in Rochester, NY. Dukelow, manager of the Rochester club introduced Langford’s opponent as Sailor Burke, one of the few that knocked out Joe Grim, and Langford’s manager agreed in that the opponent was Burke and the audience knew no difference, but it turned out to be a “Kid Williams.”
Apr 22 vs. James "Tiger" Smith: The bout took place in London, England at the National Sporting Club. Announced as for the “Middleweight Championship of England.” The bout was also for a purse of $2.000 and was scheduled for twenty rounds. The weight was set at 158 pounds. From the start it was apparent that Langford had the edge over his English opponent and Smith was so badely beaten in the fourth round that the result was virtually a knockout. Police Gazette
Jun 3 vs. Geoff Thorn: The bout took place in London, England at the National Sporting Club. Thorn was once a sparring partner of Bob Fitzsimmons, but that was about the only good thing that could be said of him in this bout. The bout itself garnered little interest from the public as Londoner’s had thought that “Tiger” Smith was a “world-beater,” and Sam took care of him so easily that Thorn couldn’t possible offer much…they were right. Langford had hoped to land a match with Gunner Moir, England’s Heavyweight Champion, but the bout never materialized. Police Gazette
Aug 27 vs. Larry Temple: The bout took place in Chelsea, MA at the Winnisimmet Athletic Club. In his first bout since returning back to the United States, Sam was easily the better of the two fighters. It was a bit of a surprise that Temple lasted the limit as Sam had at least a ten pound advantage in weight. Sam went right after Temple from the opening bell, but Temple showed tremendous gameness and an ability to absorb punishment. In every round, Sam landed rights and lefts to both the body and head and on a couple of occasions staggered his opponent. In the ninth round Temple landed a hard right that temporarily dazed Langford, but he recovered quickly and continued to pepper Temple without any return fire. Police Gazette
Sep 25 vs. Jim Barry: The bout took place in New York, NY at the Sharkey Athletic Club. The club was packed to the doors. Barry had won quite a few bouts around New York during the past few months with ease and he figured to give Sam a good go. After feinting for a minute, Barry dropped Langford hard with one of the first punches he threw. Sam was seriously hurt and just did make it to his feet at the count of nine. Barry tore into Sam, who was practically helpless and landed lefts and rights until the bell rung ending the round. The crowd was in a frenzy. In the second round, Jim went at Sam with a vengeance, but he missed badly with his first punch and went down from his own force. Barry landed a hard right to Sam’s jaw and it looked as though it would only be a matter of time. Langford was limping from a possible sprain and it seemed that he could hardly protect himself when out of nowhere Langford’s long black arm shot out with the speed of a dart, landing flush on Barry’s jaw and bang…Barry hit the floor with a fearful thud. He rolled over and got onto all fours, peering open-eyed at the carpet as though in search of something. He was thoroughly unconscious of what was going on and probably would not have regained his sense had a spray of water from a water bottle, thrown by his seconds, hit him fairly between the eyes. Barry gasped and reached out like a drowning man and suddenly his deadened senses returned and he stalled and covered up until the bell came to his rescue. Barry never fully recovered and although he fought courageously the remainder of the bout, Sam’s right hand kept him at a respectful distance, but Sam still punished him severely throughout the final four rounds. Police Gazette
Oct 15 vs. Jim Barry: The bout took place in Chelsea, MA. Langford set a fast pace and puzzled his opponent all the way. Although Sam administered much punishment, Barry fought back gamely and was milling hard at the final bell. Langford was by far the better at long range, but Barry held his own on the inside and threw a lot of leather at Sam’s body, but Langford managed to block the biggest percentage of shots. The Milwaukee Free Press listed Langford’s opponent as “Dave Barry,” but the Milwaukee Evening listed “Jim Barry” of Chicago. (Source)
Nov 12 vs. “Young” Peter Jackson: The bout took place in Los Angeles, CA at the Pacific Athletic Club. The bout was one of the hardest fought contests ever seen at the Pacific AC. The men fought a battle which would have unanimously been accepted as a draw. A steady rain of punches were exchanged throughout the fight, but Langford began to assert his dominance after the fourteenth round. It was still a very close fight in which both men did much more slugging than had been expected. (Source)
Dec 17 vs. Jim Barry: The bout took place in Los Angeles, CA at the Pacific Athletic Club. Barry, who only had a few days of training, was in no shape to put forth a serious effort, and after two rounds had passed, in which Barry attempted hard to floor Langford, he was pretty much through as a threat in the match. Langford landed shots that looked and sounded good, but the effect that they had on Barry was lacking in power. Sam had earlier tried to entice both Joe Thomas and Stanley Ketchel for a match of ten rounds a piece on the same day, and it would be a pretty fair assumption that Langford was holding back against Barry. The fight was the first to be held under the new law now operating in Los Angeles, which provides for a limit of ten rounds with six-ounce gloves. The new law also provides that “No Decision” be given if both fighters finish on their feet. Langford clearly out-pointed Barry. This was the third time that the two had met, so the Oct. 15 bout was probably Jim instead of Dave! Police Gazette

1908
Jan 14 vs. Jim Barry: The bout took place in Los Angeles, CA at the Pacific AC. Barry outfought Langford for a better part of the bout, which was a “No Decision” affair scheduled for ten rounds. The men never slowed down from the start to the finish. Langford outfought his opponent in the clinches, repeatedly sending in hard shots to the kidneys following with one to the head. In the eighth round Barry knocked Sam down with a clean straight right hand to the jaw, but Langford’s cleverness saved him from being knocked out. Barry was highly praised for his efforts. Had a decision been given, Barry would have been entitled to the win. Police Gazette. The Evening Wisconsin stated that the bout ended in a draw and that it was a popular decision, but many felt that Barry had the better of the mill.
Feb 10 vs. Black Fitzsimmons: The bout took place in Boston, MA at the Roanoke AC. Sam put it all over his opponent in what was scheduled to be a six round contest. In the fourth round, Fitzsimmons was in such bad shape that referee Moore stopped the contest and declared Langford the victor. The two men were evenly matched in weight, but that was all that was even. Fitzsimmons hardly landed a blow, while Sam bombarded him all over the ring, knocking Fitzsimmons down time after time. Fitzsimmons always got up for more, but at the start of the fourth round he was so groggy he fell all around the ring, so Moore did the humane thing by stopping it. Police Gazette
Mar 3 vs. Joe Jeannette: The bout took place in Boston, MA at the Armory AA. This was the fourth meeting between the two. Langford had the advantage in the early rounds, particularly in the first when he hit Jeannette with a left to the jaw that dropped Joe to his knees. When he arose, Sam went after him like a tiger, but Jeannette clinched until his senses had cleared and came back strong. Jeannette did not get going until the fourth round, when he gave Sam all that he wanted. Every round was full of action as the men pummeled one another unmercifully for twelve rounds after which referee Sheehan declared the fight a draw. The Evening Wisconsin
Sep 1 Joe Jeannette New York, NY (National AC) W NWS 6 MFP
-- Newspaper decision was a draw according to the New York Times. Jeanette was knocked down in the 1st and 2nd round, but it was felt that his rally afterword against Langford had earned him a draw

1909
Mar 17 vs. Jim Barry: The bout took place in Philadelphia, PA at the Washington Sporting Club. Toward the end of the second round, Barry caught Sam coming in with a hard shot to the head which sent him rolling on his back. Jim became overly excited and was too wild in trying to land a finishing punch and Langford was able to make it out of the round without any further damage. The third round showed both men landing as they had several spirited exchanges. Sam had a little the better of it in the fourth round and once staggered his game opponent. It was an exciting round as on a couple of separate occasions the men stood slugging toe-to-toe exchanging leather to the body and head. The fifth round was pretty much a repeat of the fourth with each man landing his fair share of punches, shots of which would have no doubt finished lesser men. The sixth and final round was also a hot one with Langford getting in the better work landing more often and with better success than his opponent. Langford was awarded the newspaper decision. Philadelphia Newspaper Clip
Mar 29 vs. Morris Harris: The bout took place in Brooklyn, NY at the Clermont Avenue Rink under the auspices of the Marathon Athletic Club. Harris was floored three times prior to round seven. Harris was dropped for a three-count in the first round. In the third, a short left to the jaw sent the Philadelphian down for a four-count. A hard right in the fourth round again dropped Harris for another four-count. Sam’s famous left hook lifted Harris off his feet and laid him, none too softly, on the canvas ending festivities. Police Gazette
Apr 3 vs. John Willie: The bout took place in Philadelphia, PA at the National Athletic Club. Langford was aggressive from the opening gong and landed almost at will. After sparring a few seconds in the second round, Langford saw an opening and sent over a short right, which did not travel more than eight, or ten inches, and down went his opponent. Willie fell flat on his face and although he was able to rise to one knee, he did not make it to his feet before ten had been counted. Willie had to be led to his corner by his seconds. Police Gazette
Apr 14 vs. Jim Barry: The bout took place in Albany, NY at the North End Athletic Club. Due to a small attendance the men at first refused to go on. Among those at ringside were several members of the legislature, who contributed sufficiently to a collection that was taken up to induce the men to fight. The bout was a farce. Langford at no time showed any interest in really defeating his opponent. Instead, he taunted Barry and stalled throughout the entire bout. Neither man suffered much punishment, nor did either really exert themselves until the last round when they put up a lively mix-up. At the end honors were even. Police Gazette
Apr 17 vs. Al Kubiak: The bout took place in Philadelphia, PA at the National Athletic Club. Kubiak never had a chance and Langford punished him severely throughout the match. Only Kubiak’s gameness and endurance permitted him to last the six rounds. Sam was aggressive from the start and forced the fighting in every round. Kubiak did his best work in the closing rounds, and although he was beaten and tired, Al continued to come back at Langford, but Sam was far superior to his opponent in every aspect of ability. Police Gazette
Apr 27 vs. John "Sandy" Ferguson: The bout took place in Boston, MA at the Armory AA. Ferguson had an advantage in weight (25+ pounds), height and reach and was the aggressor throughout. He landed often to Langford’s mouth and nose during the first four rounds. Sam started to pick things up and showed better form landing stiff lefts to Ferguson’s nose and he was landing a nice one-two combo, left to the body and head quite effectively. The boxing was lively in the next four rounds with Langford doing the better work. In the tenth and eleventh rounds, Sandy hooked, jabbed and countered well, but Sam fought back effectively. They mixed it up pretty good in the twelfth and final round. Both were in excellent condition physically going into the bout. Referee, Eugene Buckley declared the bout a draw, although several people who witnessed the fight felt that Sam won easily and the decision was hooted. Police Gazette
May 24 vs. William "Iron" Hague: The bout took place in London, England at the National Sporting Club. Prior to the contest, Bettinson, matchmaker of the National Sporting Club, announced that on account of Jack Johnson forfeiting to Langford, the bout would be for the Heavyweight Championship of the World, hence by grace of the National Sporting Club and the London Press. The purse was $9,000. A considerable amount of money was wagered at 2 to 1 and 5 to 2 in favor of Langford. Before the fight Langford tipped the scales at 158 and Hague came in at 196 pounds. Hague was also four inches taller. In the opening round Langford crossed a hard left to the mouth, bringing first blood. From that time until the final count it was only a question of how long Hague could last. Hague was very slow throughout the bout and his best work was done in the second round, but Sam was in control at all times. Some hard shots were exchanged by both men. A hard right from Hague partially closed Langford’s right eye. In the fourth round Sam’s superior skill and activity were shown ina marked manner. He seemed to be all over the Englishman, who simply just took his beating. The end came soon. Langford sent in three quick left jabs, followed by a crushing right that landed on the point of the chin and Hague dropped where he was counted out. With the victory Sam won the Heavyweight Championship of England. Police Gazette
Jul 13 John “Klondike” Haynes: The bout took place in Pittsburgh, PA at the Bijou Theater. Klondike took a nine-count six times throughout the bout and Langford was down twice. If a decision had been rendered, Langford was surely the winner. Klondike took a terrible beating and fouled Langford several times to avoid being knocked out. Milwaukee Free Press

1910
Jan 10 vs. Aaron “Dixie Kid” Brown: The bout took place in Memphis, TN at the Phoenix AC. According to Boxrec, the bout was for the Colored Heavyweight Title. Langford knocked out the Kid in the third round of what was to have been an eight round fight. Kid spent most of the time on the floor, taking nine-counts on almost every blow that hit him. Atlanta Constitution
Mar 17 vs. "Fireman" Jim Flynn: The bout took place in Los Angeles, CA at the Vernon Arena. Scheduled for 45 rounds. After the KO, Flynn was placed slumped and dazed on a stool in his corner, while his seconds spent some time attempting to revive him. He eventually got to his feet. Milwaukee Free Press
Apr 27 vs. Stanley Ketchel: The bout took place in Philadelphia, PA at the National AC. "Sam Langford, of Boston, defeated Stanley Ketchel of Grand Rapids in a six round bout at the National Club last night. Forty-five hundred enthusiastic pugilistic fans were gathered last night to see what promised to be the best contest held in Philadelphia this season, and they were not disappointed. They saw two perfectly trained athletes, endowed with science, strength and bull dog tenacity, pummel each other for eighteen minutes , with the honors finally going to the colored man. For several years various clubs throughout the country have tried to match these champions, but it remained for Philadelphia to land the contest and the diversity of opinion as to the result will furnish food for thought for many moons. It was a daring risk for the club to take since it had been freely reported that the two men had agreed to box an "intelligent" bout with the view of holding a longer fight in California, but those at ringside last night were perfectly satisfied that they had seen the most interesting bout of the year. It is a question, however, whether Langford really tried his hardest all the way, or whether he pulled up a bit in the last two rounds when he knew he had taken the sting out of Ketchel's punches. He was too unconcerned to be going at top speed and many good judges are of the opinon that the white man will be his voctim of they ever meet in a long contest. The scene inside the clubhouse was one to be remembered. The high admission fee, ranging from two to ten dollars, kept out the noisy element, and there were many wll known faces to be seen there. Lawyers, doctors, professional and society men of all grades, working men and "sports" mingled freely and there was the best of feeling existing. All were there to see the contest and it was a good-natured crowd. Everything was taken in good spirit and the slightest incident was sufficient to raise a laugh. This was demonstrated when one daring individual wearing a silk hat and white spats-climbed on the edge of the ring to make it to the opposite side of the house. He was marked in a second and a heary laugh went around the club. With the utmost nonchanlance the wearer of the "plug hat" continued his walk and finally the crowd gave him a rousing cheer for his nerve. That was the way it went all hands were in good humor and waiting for the big noise. LANGFORD APPEARED FIRST: After three preliminaries had been waded through, the crowd settled down to the main event and a tense feeling spread over the multiitude. A wait of fifteen minutes and then the stockh figure of Sam Langford was seen making his way down the aisle. He climbed into the ring and took his seat amongst the storm of cheers. The colored man was not any too comfortable , and he bit his lips nervously while waiting the arrival of his opponent. When Ketchel came into the ring he shook hands smilingly with Langford and each examined the others gloves. The test was satisfactory, and Ketchel went to his corner while the crowd yelled its sympathy and support. It did not take long to adjust the gloves, and yet it was apparent that the "Michigan Assasin" was just as nervous as Langford. He sat with a serious look in his face and it was a positive relief for both men when Jack McGuigan, the referee called them to the center for final instructions. They shook hands again while listening to the referee and went back to their corners to await the sound of the gong. All the time the crowd was holding its breath and critically looking over the two men. There did not seem to be anything in their condition which could be taken exception to although Langford appeared to have an advantage in weight. Then the bell rang. It sounded louder than a bugle call and the two men sprang to the center of the ring with guards up and watching for an opening. Their faces denoted the the physical strain under which they were laboring, but with the first lead they seemed to come to themselves and were like seasoned warriors. They warily moved around a few seconds and then Kethcel opened the proceedings with a light left to the chest. From this stage their minds concentrated on their task and most moves were carefully figured out. Indeed so careful were they that the crowd was dissatisfied and some thought it was to be a fake. Jeers and hisses were (unreadable word), but the men paid no attention that and went about their business in (unreadable word) fashion. They were quick on their feet, and took no chances in getting a punch to the jaw. (unreadable word) at the same time they tried all their wiles to make each other open up. Most of Kethcels leads were swings for the head and he failed to do any execution with them. Langford would step just out of reach or jab with a left to the face and thus prevent Ketchel from landing. When the bell rang no damage was done., although Langford had deonstrated that he was the cleverer and had the better left jab. The milling warmed up in the second round and Ketchel managed to get home with some body punches which caused Langford to be more careful. The latter also did some telling work with his left and honors were about even. KETCHEL SHAKEN UP: In the third round Langford took a decided lead and gave the spectators a taste of his real quality. He shook Ketchel badly with swings to the head and the Michigan man was forced to clinch frequently to escape punishment. Langford was cool as a piece of ice and his seconds did not bother him with advice during the round. They realized that he was adopting the best tactics and were satisfied to depend on his judgment. the bell found Ketchel rather weary and the crowd better pleased. The fourth round was really the turning point in the contest. Langford saw that Ketchel was losing his steam and he mercilessly followed him up, landing telling left jabs and right body swings . Twice he shook Ketchel with jaw punches and brought blood from the mouth and nose with well-timed jabs. Ketchel tried to bore in, but his efforts seemed half-hearted and some of his punches were a yard wide of their mark. Notwithstanding his advantage Langford did not try to take any liberties and was content to make every blow tell. Ketchel looked very tired, and when he missed his swings, it needed an effort to get back into position. Ketchel mad ehis best showing in the fifth round, but it looked as though Langford was letting up his work. Ketchel played both hands to the body and although they did not have much steam, they landed. Langford mad elittle attempt to block the body blows when at close quarters and smiled to his seconds while Ketchel was sending his punches to the body. The colored man kept cool and was comparitively fresh when he went back to his corner, but Ketchel on the other hand appaeared to be tired out, and it was harder for him to get set for his blows. Encouraged by his success in the preceding round, Ketchel tried to cut out the pace iin the last session and he bored in all the time , but the sting had gone from his blows and they didn not bother Langford in the slightest. In fact, Langford's easy work mad eit appear as though he was not trying to do any more damage and he contended himself with jabbing, while Ketchel was wildly swinging both hands in a frantic endeavor to connect with a vital spot. When Ketchel was trying to land his punches to the body, he would jump in the air, and it looked to the casual observer as though the punches were landing with great force, but there was little steam to them and Langford was holding safe. To sum it up Langford was much the stronger and cleverer and his jabs had a disconcerting effect on Ketchel. The latter took all kinds of chances and landed some good body blows but he was also swinging wildly and at times Langford was many feet away when the punches were started. The colored man looked to be in pretty good shape at the close, but was tired and wild and the sound of the bell was a welcome interruption." Ketchel received $9375; Langford $5625. Philadelphia Evening Bulletin (Report typed out by Monte Cox)
Nov 10 vs. Jeff Clark: The bout took place in Joplin, Missouri. Sam Langford won over Jeff Clark of Joplin in the second round of what was to have been a ten-round bout here tonight. The fight was stopped when Clark was all but out. Before he would fight Langford insisted that the ring be reduced to sixteen feet square. From the tap of the gong Langford rushed, showering short jabs to the body. The force of his onslaught rendered Clark powerless and he was knocked to the floor for the count of eight three times in the first round. He came back gamely, but after two minutes of the second round, after he had gone down twice, the referee stopped the fight, giving Langford the decision. According to Boxrec, for the “Colored” Heavyweight Title. Indianapolis Star

1911
Jan 10 vs. Joe Jeannette: The bout took place in Boston, MA at the Armory AA. The crowd that packed into the club house was the largest ever up to that point. Jeannette took some heavy punishment, but spectators left feeling that the bout had not entirely been on the level and felt that Langford could have put Jeannette away had he wanted to. A right and left to the jaw dropped Jeannette in the first round. From then on, Langford was the aggressor, banging lefts and rights off of his opponent while Jeannette did the best that he could just to cover up. It was evident that Sam pulled a lot of his punches, but he never let up on the amount that he threw. According to Boxrec, for the “Colored Heavyweight Title.” (Police Gazette)
Jan 16 vs. Fred Atwater: The bout took place in Utica, NY at the State Armory. Atwater was the bigger man, but had no chance against Sam. Langford played with his opponent for the first two rounds. In the third round a heavy right dropped Atwater. The bout was so one-sided that it was stopped in the third to save Atwater from being knocked out. Washington Post
Feb 21 vs. Bill Lang: The bout took place in London, England at Olympia. Langford was a 3to2, and 3-to-1 favorite at ringside in the betting, but that did not discourage and Aussie admirer of Lang to drop $5,000 on the man that papers had termed “The hope of the white race.” Every seat in Olympia was full, from the $3.00 seats to the $50.00 box seats. Lang was floored four times throughout the bout. In the second round, Langford really turned up the heat and pressured Lang, slugging him repeatedly. A viscous right dropped the Australian for a nine count, but it was the end of the round and Langford was not able to capitalize. Langford picked back up right where he left off in the next round. He showed no mercy for his outclassed foe. A sharp left, followed by a hard right sent Lang sprawling to the canvas again. He made it up as the count reached eight, and again, the bell saved him. With his face swelling and covered in blood, Lang made a stand in the fourth round swapping Langford punch for punch, but it was a short-lived stand as Langford quickly asserted his dominance. Sam came out for the fifth round with bad intentions in mind. A crushing right to the body put Lang down for the third time, but again the stubborn Aussie was up when the count reached nine, but was almost instantly dropped again…the gong again saving him from being counted out. In the sixth and last round, Langford missed a hard right and slipped to the floor. While Sam was on his knees, Lang punched him with a hard left in the back of the head and the referee immediately stepped in and awarded the fight to Langford. Attendance was estimated at 8,000 that came out to witness the bout that was scheduled for twenty-five rounds. The purse was $15,000. Police Gazette
Apr 1 vs. Sam McVey: The bout took place in Paris, France at the Cirque de Paris. It appeared that Langford had the better of the fight, but the decision was a well received “Draw.” Langford was outweighed by at least twenty pounds, and was also the shorter of the two by around four, or five inches. According to Boxrec, for the “Colored Heavyweight Title.” Atlanta Constitution
May 30 vs. Ralph Calloway: The bout took place in Syracuse, NY.
Jun 16 vs. Tony Caponi: The bout took place in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Langford had a little the better of the milling. Langford was an aspirant for the “Heavyweight Title,” Caponi was an aspirant for the “Middleweight Title,” and it was clearly visible that Langford was much the heavier of the two. Both fighters landed some hard blows throughout the ten rounds. In the middle of the bout, Langford pushed Caponi through the ropes and at that time the police captain told the two fighters that he did not want to see a knockout, and it was evident that Sam took heed to the captain’s statement and most agreed that Langford did not give his all. Around 3,000 fans were estimated. Milwaukee Evening
Jun 29 vs. Jack Fitzgerald: The bout took place in New York, NY at the National Sporting Club. Fitzgerald, a Philadelphia “White Hope” went out in the fifth of a scheduled ten round bout. After the first round it was just a question of how long Fitzgerald would last. Langford merely toyed with his opponent until the fifth round. A hard shot put Fitzgerald down for a nine-count and on rising a left hook to the jaw knocked him out. The Atlanta Constitution
Aug 9 vs. “Farmer” Jim Smith: The bout took place in New York, NY at the Atlantic Gardens Athletic Club. Every time that Langford landed and punch, Smith was lifted clean off the floor and deposited to another part of the ring. Nothing that the larger Smith landed did any damage whatsoever and only once, or twice did the shots even make Sam blink. A terrific right uppercut floored Smith in the fifth round and he barely made it to his feet just as the count reached ten, but he was clearly in no condition to defend himself and referee, Joh wisely stopped it awarding the win to Sam. By the end of the fourth round, Smith was sporting two bad cuts on his face. In the fifth round, Langford came out with intentions of ending the affair and unmercifully pounded Smith to the body, which slowed Smith down and Langford shot a hard right uppercut which dropped the Westchester man flat on his back. Did this bout occur at the Fairmont AC? Police Gazette
Aug 15 vs. "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien: The bout took place in New York, NY at the 20th Century Athletic Club. Sam had at least a ten pound advantage in weight. A hard left hook had O’Brien practically out on his feet and referee, Charley White prevented O’Brien from being knocked out clean when he halted the fight in the middle of the fifth round. None of O’Brien’s punches had enough steam to bother Sam the least bit, while Langford’s punches were of the “sledgehammer” order. O’Brien’s career record going into the bout was 98-5-16 (54 KO) in 183 total bouts. Milwaukee Evening
Aug 24 vs. Tony Ross: The bout took place in New York, NY at the National SC. Ross was clever, which made it difficult for Sam to land anything solid until the sixth round. In the sixth, Langford let fly a devastating left hook that landed flush on the jaw and Ross dropped to the floor as if he had been shot. Casually, Langford turned and walked back to his corner without looking back as he knew that Ross would not be getting up. Milwaukee Evening
Sep 5 vs. Joe Jeannette: The bout took place in New York, NY at Madison Square Garden. Langford had been expected to knockout Jeannette, but Joe showed no fear of the “Boston Tar Baby,” and fought a fast and clever fight landing sometimes better that Sam, but Langford still had a shade the better over Joe. The Milwaukee Evening article stated that the bout would be for the “Light Heavyweight Championship.” According to Boxrec, for the “Colored Heavyweight Title.” Milwaukee Evening
Oct 6 vs. Tony Caponi: The bout took place in New York, NY at the 20th Century Athletic Club. Unlike their previous fight earlier in the year, Sam was at his best this night and Caponi was so outclassed and beaten that referee, Charley White called a halt to the fight in the third round to save Caponi from unnecessary punishment. Tony was floored three times while the contest lasted. In the first round, Sam stuck out his jaw and Caponi landed a hard left, but Sam just laughed it off, which had to be discouraging to Caponi. The first time that Caponi went to the floor, Sam landed a left and right to the jaw, but Caponi made it to his feet before the count of ten. The second knockdown was from a left to the body followed with a right to the jaw, but again Tony was up at the count of nine. In the third and final round a right to the jaw put Caponi to the floor for another nine-count and referee White stopped the one-sided massacre. Police Gazette
Dec 26 vs. Sam McVey: The bout took place in Sydney, NSW, Australia at Rushcutter’s Bay Stadium. Infighting was not allowed, which no doubt played the biggest part in the decision against Langford as Langford was one of the best at infighting as it was his style of fighting. The decision in favor of McVey was not a popular one with those whose witnessed the bout and they expressed it with boo’s and jeers. Newspaper reports were greatly in favor of Langford, as the report from the much respected Sydney Referee attested to. McVey had the advantage in only two, or three rounds. From start to finish, Langford pressured the bigger McVey. McVey apparently injured his right hand early in the bout and rarely used it throughout the twenty rounds. Referee, Snowy Baker had been a much respected official, but the Referee held nothing back as to what they now thought of the referee that they had once very much admired. At the end both men visibly showed the effects of the fight. Langford’s lips were cut and his right eye was nearly closed. McVey was battered viscously about the body and was bleeding from the mouth and nose. The only knockdown of the fight was the result of a hard left hook that McVey landed flush on Langford’s jaw, but Langford was up in an instant. The contest was regarded as an elimination fight to determine who would next fight Jack Johnson for the “Heavyweight Championship of the world.” Tommy Burns, who was at ringside, stated that the decision was awful and was without a doubt the worst that he had ever seen. A crowd estimated at 28,000 saw the fight and betting was 4-to-5 in favor of Langford. According to Boxrec, for the “Colored Heavyweight Title.” Milwaukee Evening

1913
Sep 9 vs. John Lester Johnson: The bout took place in New York, NY at the Atlantic Garden Athletic Club. Langford defends world 'colored' heavyweight title claim. At the gong, Johnson began prancing and stamping around the ring like a horse with the blind staggers. Langford was compelled to take long-distance swings and the only place he could reach was his opponents left kidney, which he did until Johnson went down. New York Times
Dec 20 vs. Joe Jeannette: The bout took place in Paris, France at Wonderland. According to Boxrec, for the Colored Heavyweight Title.Jeannette forced the fighting. It was Sam’s fight all the way. Joe forced the fighting for the first few rounds, but Langford bided his time and blocked all of Joe’s efforts. Jeannette was down three times in the thirteenth round, and barely lasted the full twenty rounds. Paris Herald (Summary from research done by Bob Soderman)
1914
Jan 24 vs. Matthew "PO" Curran: The bout took place in Paris, France at the Luna Park Arena. Langford caught Curran coming in, just seven seconds after the gong sounded, he landed a terrific left to the jaw, and Curran dropped like he had been hit with a hammer.
Mar 23 vs. Bill Watkins: The bout took place in New York, NY at the National SC. Langford 200, Watkins 186 lbs. "During the two minutes that it lasted it was featured principally by the hugging tactics of Watkins who evidently left hhis courage outside the ring". New York Times
Mar 27 vs. "Battling" Jim Johnson: The bout took place in New York, NY at the Empire Athletic Club. According to Boxrec, for the Colored Heavyweight Title. Langford "won by a wide margin" when Johnson "failed to show anything remotely resembling championship ability." New York Times

1915
Apr 19 vs. Dan "Porky" Flynn: The bout took place in Montreal, Quebec, Canada at the Montreal SC. Referee, Pat Rooney stated that “neither man was trying” and he threw both out resulting in a “No Contest.” At times, Langford appeared to be trying to make a fight out of the affair, but Flynn stalled at all times and Langford soon followed suit. The decision was popular and both fighters were booed and hissed all the way back to their respective dressing rooms. They had been paid in advance of the bout. Calgary Daily Herald

1917
Jan 1 vs. "Battling" Jim Johnson: The bout took place in Kansas City, MO at the Academy Athletic Club. The bout was pretty even for the first four rounds, but then Langford took over and punished Johnson severely for the remainder of the bout scoring two knockdowns in the process. The Morning Albertan
May 11 vs. Harry Wills: The bout took place in Philadelphia, PA at the Cambria AC. According to Boxrec, for the Colored Heavyweight Title. Langford came into the fight out of shape with a gut that visibly stuck well out. Sam blocked a good number of shots, but he also took his fair share of hits. Although not in the best of condition, Langford was still able to make Wills fight at a fast pace and both men worked themselves into quite a perspiration, but youth was served. The fight was a fast contest and at the end Wills had a shade the better of the bout. Philadelphia Newspaper Clip

1918
Dec 28 vs. Fred Fulton: The bout took place in San Francisco, CA at the Civic Auditorium. When the fighters appeared in the ring they were greeted with shouts and laughter, the towering figure of Fulton apparently dwarfing the heavier and shorter body of Langford

1919
Mar 4 vs. Willie Meehan: The bout took place in San Francisco, CA at the Coliseum Rink. Meehan fought his usual aggressive style and forced the fighting from the opening gong and never took a backward step throughout. Langford was in poor condition, although he had trained several days for the bout. The fat hung over his belt in a great fold and his wind was bad. There were some lively mixups, but no knockdowns were scored. Referee Griffin easily awarded Meehan the victory. Bridgeport Standard Telegram
Jun 19 "Big" Bill Tate Minneapolis, MN W DQ 5 NOTP
--The New Orleans Times-Picayune lists the result as a “NC 5.”
Sep 18 Rough House Wilson Battle Creek, MI W TKO 4 WDT
--The referee stopped the bout as Wilson was helpless against the ropes after taking two nine counts.
Nov 5 Harry Wills Tulsa, OK L PTS 15 WDT
-- Wills dominated Langford throughout the entire fight.

1920
Jun 7 vs. “Rough House” Ware: The bout took place in New Orleans, LA at the Tulane AC. This was the main event of an all-black program. Langford won easily. Ware kept away from Sam until the sixth round, when Langford hurt him badly. A viscous left-hook caught Ware in the ninth round resulting in a one-punch knockout. New Orleans Times-Picayune
Aug 14 Sam McVea East Chicago, IN ND W PTS 10 WDT
--Att: 7,000 booed McVea because of his stalling tactics. Langford, the aggressor throughout won seven of the ten rounds.
Sep 6 vs. "Big" Bill Tate: The bout took place in Benton Harbor, MI. This bout was on the undercard of the Dempsey-Miske title bout and Tate, who was one of Dempsey’s sparring partners, had the better of a rather tame affair by primarily using a left jab. Langford weighed 194, while Tate came in at 230. Calgary Daily Herald
Oct 13 vs. Frank Farmer: The bout took place in Seattle, WA at the Civic Arena. Farmer was nervous and awed by old Sam and failed to put up his usual bout, making the poorest showing he has ever made in the Northwest. Farmer clinched so much that the fans booed, but he was in there to stick the four rounds and he did. He refused to use his right hand, which he injured some months back, on the head of Langford, about the only spot, it seems, that Langford could be hit the way he was fighting Wednesday night." Tacoma News Tribune (Later, according to the Seattle Daily Times of May 18, 1922: Farmer was "set down for a year for his miserable showing against Sam Langford two winters ago." He would not fight again in Seattle until May 23, 1922.)
Dec 2 vs. "Tiny" Jim Herman: The bout took place in Portland, OR at the Heilig Theater. Herman down three times. The Portland commission suspended him briefly following this bout, amid allegations that his trainer Chet McIntyre had placed a blinding substance on his gloves.

1921
Jan 14 vs. Bob Devere: The bout took place in Portland, OR at the Armory. Devere was down once in the 7th. After Langford drove Devere into the ropes, Devere's chief second Eddie McGoorty threw in the towel.
Aug 12 Lee Anderson Omaha, NE W PTS 10 TAC
--This was the first fight to be staged under the new Nebraska boxing law.
Oct 18 vs. “Young” Peter Jackson: The bout took place in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Langford outweighed Jackson 198 to 171. The article stated that Jackson was from Windsor, Canada. A large crowd was on hand which witnessed a knockout in two rounds. Edmonton Journal
Nov 24 Lee Anderson Phoenix, AZ (Capital City Arena) L PTS 10 WDT
--The decision of Referee Billy Murray of San Francisco was unpopular with the crowd, which became so threatening that deputy sheriffs escorted him from the arena

1922
Mar 27 "Big" Bill Tate Memphis, TN L PTS 8 WDT
-- The Philadelphia Record also has it as a win for Tate. The supposed 8-round fight between Tate and Langford, previously listed here as occurring in Mexico City, probably refers to this fight. Certainly Langford and Tate would never have been scheduled for just 8 rounds in Mexico City
Apr 7 James "Tut" Jackson 27-1-2 (21 KO) Dayton, OH L TKO 5 BDN
-- The referee stopped the fight after Langford had been floored twice." (Newark Advocate

1923
Aug 22 Rocco Stramalgia Los Angels, CA SCH
--Langford arrived in L.A. on Aug. 20 for the bout.

[Ambling Alp]

tagjohnson-Interesting question about his weight. I do have some scraps of information.
Actually there are several times when Langford's weight is given on the boxrec database. From 1913-1922, there are 15 times when his weight is listed. The lowest was 185;the highest was 200. At this point in his career, his weight seemed to fluctuate a bit from fight to fight.

From 1903-1906, there are four times when his weight was listed, from the the lowest of 140 in 1903 to highest of 156 in 1906. Unfortunately, there isn't anything listed in the during prime years between 1906-1913.

The Boxing Register lists his lowest weight as 139, and his highest at 204. Unfortunately, it doesn't list when or who the opponents were.

Had he fought during modern times, it's conceivable that he could have won titles at 140,147,154,160,168,175,200, and heavyweight.

He had success at almost all of the weights listed. Hard to say at which weight he was the best.

[pound per pound]

Do any of you "experts" actually know the answers to my questions? I really do not appreciate my serious post being turned into a catfight.

What was Sam Langford's usual and/or best weight at heavweight? His weight is only given twice in his entry at boxrec once at 185 and another time at 187 both very late in his career.

>>Best weight for Langford was in the between 175-185 at heavyweight.

Second, he fought Harry Wills over twenty times, is this the record for two fighters meeting the most number of time?

>>I think so.

[Cap]

At his peak, as others have stated, Langford could easily carry as much as 185 pounds on his wide 5' 8" frame. In later years he was often referred to as rotund or even hog-fat, weighing as much as 200 pounds. Langford was, at heart, a counter-puncher, but if the other fellow declined to lead, he would press the action. With most opponents, it was a question of "when" he would knock them out, not "if".

Cap

[Chuck1052]

When it came to contemporary boxing records, I am told
that the 1940s and 1950s Ring Record Books edited by
Lew Eskin were terrific. However, many of the records
of oldtimers in the same record books were incomplete
or inaccurate.

Since the boxing world has changed so drastically since
the first half of the Twentieth Century, I find it almost
impossible to compare fighters like Sam Langford,
Harry Greb and Maxie Rosenbloom with their modern
counterparts.

- Chuck Johnston

[barry]

Chuck---You know as well as I how not only a ton of dates were inaccurate, but that the biggest percentage of records in any of the earlier record book were missing a vast number of fights that never made it into the records...though Lew Eskin's research was a lot more responsible for the RRB than Nat Fleischer's ever was and considering what he had to work with, in terms of research sources, at the time inaccuracies would be expected as most any research that he wanted to do had to be through large bound volumes of newspapers whereas we can go through microfilm pretty easily today, so considering what he had to work with he did do a really good job, but it doesn't change the fact that the RRB series is loaded with inaccuracies. Whereas the newer records were a lot better, the old timers records in the RRB's were horrible...esxept the 86-87 volume. They actually were nothing more than records from Everlast, Post, Andrews and other record books prior to 1941. Funny, Nat Fleischer tried to copyright those records as his own.

[BoxBuzz]

Do any of you "experts" actually know the answers to my questions? I really do not appreciate my serious post being turned into a catfight.

The rest of this thread will be respected, and allowed to continue on topic, by active moderation if required. Off topic contributions to this thread will continue to be deleted.