The Truth of Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Jan 2008, 17:44

Despite the mythologies surrounding him, from his self penned autobiography 'The 16th Round' to the well known anthom 'Hurricane' by folk singer Bob Dylan, and later being portrayed by Denzel Washington; this thread isn't about the man or his problems outside the ring.

I personally do not care about his trials or the murder convictions, though I will comment now that the debacle was similar to the O.J. Simpson trial, getting off his sentence by using the racist wild card, though in the end still hadn't proven to anyone that he didn't commit the crimes, as all evidence pointed in his direction.

As the song goes:

"The number one contender for the middleweight crown, had no idea what kinda shit was about to go down..."

"Here comes the story of the Hurricane, the man the authorities came to blame, for something that he never done, put in a prison cell, but one time he could have been the champion of the world..."

And the truth is, it's misleading, and way off the mark. Despite Don King and others who would later give Carter the WBC 'championship emeritus' for being 'robbed' of his prime, just to make themselves look good in the public eye because the movie was on the rise...

Here's the real truth of Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter's boxing career, especially before his conviction. But before I do continue on, I want the readers to know, this thread isn't in any way, shape, or form out to slam The Hurricane or to be detrimental to his character. While this subject has been pressed in the past, when noobie posters come on the scene and proclaim that Carter could have been something more, it's always ended up going into a direction away from his career and into more provocative issues.

Not this thread. This will be a blow-by-blow break down of the career of a man who rised from poverty and violence, who unfortunately ended back onto that very same path, accomplishing nothing more than being a flash in the pan, a shooting star that burned out as quick as he came.

Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter: 27-12-1 (19)

Greatest Win: Emile Griffith, KO 1st [1963]

Other Mentionable High Profile Wins:

Jimmy Ellis, W10 [later Ellis would turn Heavyweight; 1964]
Holly Mims, W10 [1962]
Florentino Fernandez, KO 1st [1962]

Well Known Losses:

Joey Archer, LSD10 [1963]
Luis Manuel Rodriguez, LUD10 [1965]
Dick Tiger, LUD10 [1965; Carter knocked down three times]
Luis Manuel Rodriguez, LUD10 [1965]

Lone Title Shot: Joey Giardello, WBC/WBA, LUD10, 72-66, 71-66, 70-67

Based on those figures alone, it can be determined that Carter was at his absoloute best in the time frame of October of 1962 to December of 1964, from his win over Florentino Fernandez to his loss to Joey Giardello. Despite what the film said about the Giardello fight, while it is true that Giardello was busted up pretty good, the simple fact of the matter is Carter simply got tired and burned out in the later rounds against a more craftier boxer, and while it was somewhat close, it was rightfully Giardello's decision.

What Dylan and others suggested is that when Carter fought in South America [Argentina] he was still ranked the #1 contender for the title. The truth of the matter, is that in 1966 [when in Argentina], Carter had picked up 7 losses, 7 wins and his only draw when he fought the unheralded Juan Carlos Rivera, after losing to Giardello back in 1964.

Truth is, Carter was actually ranked #9 at that time, which if anything was generous, considering that the only opponents he was able to beat were nowhere near the leaugue of others who were suitable for the top ten ranks. In February of that same year, Carter had been #7, just behind Stan Harrington, Don Fullmer, Joey Giardello, Gomeo Brennan, Joey Archer and Nino Benvenuti, the champion at the time was Dick Tiger.

In May of 1965 he had been #3, by November he dropped down to 6th and in March of 1966 he was #9.

From his debut to his peak against Giardello, Rubin Carter had compiled a respectable 20-4 record. By the time he had fought Giardello he was exactly twenty seven years old, an age near enough for most fighters of the bruising/brawling/swarming type to begin to break down. For Dempsey it was when he was 32, for Marciano it was when he was 33, for Jeffries it was when he was 29.

For being a man who came up from nothing, who basically beat up on tomato cans and nobodies for the first year and a half of his career, he made an awesome leap from fighting that level of opposition to knocking out guys like Florentino Fernandez and decisioning tough luck veterans like Holly Mims.

To be honest, though, I believe Rubin Carter's best attribute, what he had best going for him was, he was a very great PROSPECT, and was a very entertaining one at that...but he wasn't in the league of Archer, Tiger, Giardello, or any of the top men of his time, let alone of all time.

Sure he flattened Emile Griffith in just 2:13 of the first round, but on the flip side, Emile Griffith by that time had done been a Welterweight champion, done had the wars with Benny Kid Paret and was still making a transition from 147 to middleweight, which is a huge jump no matter how you wish to look at it, and it wouldn't be until 1966 that he himself would become a contender enough to fight for the Middleweight title and win it.

But hell, thats more than some can say in boxing, that they beat a man who would later become one of the best middleweight champions in history, much like in the same way Ted Lowry is a piece of boxing history because he gave Marciano hell when he was on the way up.

Rubin Carter, hurricane in the ring, sure...but it was only for two years that he was anywhere remotely near the force that Dylan and Hollywood tried to make him out to be.

Rufus Homicide Henry Defibaugh

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 15 Jan 2008, 20:01

the man is a liar and a scum bag con artist

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Jan 2008, 23:51

robert.snell1 wrote:the man is a liar and a scum bag con artist

Rufus?

or Rubin?

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 16 Jan 2008, 00:00

Collins2000 wrote:
robert.snell1 wrote:the man is a liar and a scum bag con artist
Rufus?

or Rubin?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Jan 2008, 04:04

Oi vey you bastards

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 16 Jan 2008, 04:09

Agreed. Just the other week HomicideHenry sent me an e-mail claiming to be the President of Nigeria, & attempted to scam me out of my banking details

Outrageous.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Jan 2008, 04:22

oi oi oi...is this because I dont buy into the Zelenoff hype like you all?

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 16 Jan 2008, 05:59

rubin

nobudius · Post by **nobudius** » 16 Jan 2008, 10:53

I'm not too far from Carter's old stomping grounds of Paterson, NJ: and Carter has always been known as a sketchy guy. That thread here with a fighter that you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley? He fits the bill.

I like Dylan, but that song is bullshiat. And I think Dylan knows this. Now.

Tiger vs. Carter is a guilty pleasure of mine, although I'll give him credit for getting up every time he was down, to take his beating again.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 16 Jan 2008, 16:29

Holly Mims threw the fight to Carter.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 17 Jan 2008, 04:13

If you ever notice, though 'Hurricane' is still among Dylan's records on 'Essential' or 'Best Of' albums, he stopped doing the song in concerts shortly after Carter was released; personally, though, I dont believe it was because Carter was finally 'freed' but because not too long after he was released, his true colors emurged once again, as he assaulted a female reporter and was sent back to prison.

I think Dylan finally woke up to the realization that Carter wasn't this pathetic, cheated/robbed persona that he led him to believe.

Grant · Post by **Grant** » 18 Jan 2008, 03:51

Whether or not Carter was guilty was never the issue with me. The problem was the way he was fitted by the police.
I think it's more important that the trial and prosecution must be squeaky clean and I think in this case the prosecution left themselves open to critisism. Oh by the way i think he was probably guilty.

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 18 Jan 2008, 09:16

He was a guilty con man scumbag and an average boxer with a solid left hook that could be outboxed, glorified by Hollywood in total disregard to the facts.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 18 Jan 2008, 09:46

Grant wrote:Whether or not Carter was guilty was never the issue with me. The problem was the way he was fitted by the police.
I think it's more important that the trial and prosecution must be squeaky clean and I think in this case the prosecution left themselves open to critisism. Oh by the way i think he was probably guilty.

That's it in a nutshell. He was fitted up but it looks like he probably did it.

zojo · Post by **zojo** » 18 Jan 2008, 12:13

I always had a question about the SONG:

Did Dylan ever use any of the money he made from the song to Carter's defense fund? I just think if you are writing a song to bring attention to an insure, you should give money to that cause.

Anyone know if Dylan did more to help Carter than the song?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 20 Jan 2008, 00:21

I know very little about the topic. But I know enough not to
take the song or the movie for truth.

Im not a Dylan fan and I found it painful the Oprah love fest that
accompanied the movie when it was released.

Kym

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Jan 2008, 01:08

>>>>He was a guilty con man scumbag and an average boxer with a solid left hook that could be outboxed, glorified by Hollywood in total disregard to the facts.<<<<

That pretty much wraps Carter up!!! Which I do not know Carter personally, but I do know several people who do know Carter personally and the common response about Carter...what a real scumbag!!!

The website http://www.graphicwitness.com has a very thorough collection of actual facts about the case, which I would encourage anyone to watch...especially those who feel that "The Hurricane" was an inspirational tale of a man overcoming prejudice and injustices to gain his freedom! While people of color most certainly had to deal with severe prejudice for centuries, Rubin Carter's conviction was not because of it.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 21 Jan 2008, 02:55

barry wrote:>>>>He was a guilty con man scumbag and an average boxer with a solid left hook that could be outboxed, glorified by Hollywood in total disregard to the facts.<<<<

That pretty much wraps Carter up!!! Which I do not know Carter personally, but I do know several people who do know Carter personally and the common response about Carter...what a real scumbag!!!

The website http://www.graphicwitness.com has a very thorough collection of actual facts about the case, which I would encourage anyone to watch...especially those who feel that "The Hurricane" was an inspirational tale of a man overcoming prejudice and injustices to gain his freedom! While people of color most certainly had to deal with severe prejudice for centuries, Rubin Carter's conviction was not because of it.

Like a lot of websites (including one set up for that Valentine slut) this is a lot of hearsay drivel. Carter was loaded up by a Police force and DA desperate for a conviction after a series of murders in a mobbed up town. In the second trial the prosecution made out that the murders were revenge killings in spite of the original Police report finding that the motive was robbery. The basis was the killing of a black man by a white man. The two men were in fact associates and the murder was over a gambling debt. The murderer was arrested that night it was well reported. He was in custody at the time of the Lafayette Bar murders. The prosecution made out the Lafayette bar was in an "exclusive" area and that the owner, Ray Oliver, hated blacks, when there was a black couple named Avery and Fanida Cockersham lived in the building next to the building the Lafayette was in and Oliver used to let Fanida buy whiskey on credit when her welfare cheque was late. Police radio records showed the murders occurred well before the time the Prosecution said it happened. When Carter was out on bail awaiting the second trial he was arrested for a sexual assault and refused bail, making it difficult to arrange his court case. On the day of the murder trial the sexual assault assault charge and all evidence of it mysteriously disappeared.

What people think of Rubin Carter as man is unimportant. What matters is that he did not get a fair trial in 1966 or 1975.

barry · Post by **barry** » 21 Jan 2008, 03:12

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here and don't mean this in any kind of disrespectful manner, but I am curious...did you honestly enjoy that movie "The Hurricane?"

>>>Like a lot of websites (including one set up for that Valentine slut) this is a lot of hearsay drivel. Carter was loaded up by a Police force and DA desperate for a conviction after a series of murders in a mobbed up town.<<<

The website that I mention is certainly not in favor of Carter, but they do have all of the actual legal documents pertaining to the case and all the actual, ACTUAL facts pertaining to the case and trials, which I challenged and urge anyone who may be slightly interested in this topic to read all of those documents and afterwards then tell me what kind of view the person has toward the topic...which if someone reads it all it will take hours to complete it all.

>>>What matters is that he did not get a fair trial in 1966 or 1975<<<

As I stated...read all of the actual facts pertaining to this issue and then tell me if you still think that he did not get a fair trial?

Just someone is a scumbag that certainly does not make them guilty and it's not that he is a scumbag in this instance that makes him guilty...it's his guilt that makes him guilty!

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 21 Jan 2008, 10:02

i have read much of the evidence available, i'm a bob dylan fan and i have not seen the film. i sway towards guilty but its a hell of a song.
i had to laugh at the post by robinson who was less than happy with an apparant carter love fest on oprah. are you still watching that garbage? that really is unbelievable

barry · Post by **barry** » 21 Jan 2008, 21:24

We saw how accurate Oprah can be when she praised James Frey's book "A Million Little Pieces" as a true vision into the hell that is addiction, but any recovering addict who has read the book picked up within the first chapter that it was obviously a very, very fabricated story...for example...his depiction of one of the countries most exspensive rehab facilities is a joke...now I have been in facilities like the one Frey tried to portray, but they were always state run facilities and every private, exspensive rehab that I have been in are all very, very accomidating to the patient, but then again, it was quickly proven that Frey had lied about around 95% of the book and Oprah had to come out and damn the book after it was found out that it was a fake story, which she could have saved herself a lot of time by asking someone with some actual experience in the topic, but like she did with "The Hurricane" she will sale what she thinks is a good story as true and then when it proves that she was wrong she will lay all of the blame on the person who fooled her. I think Oprah has done a lot of good in the country, but she is also a bit of a hypocrite.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 22 Jan 2008, 02:47

The last time I looked all American states had the British legal system, where the defendant is innocent until proved guilty and guilt must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. With the surviving victim (who died a short time later) saying that Carter and Artis were not the offenders, the main eye witnesses being a career criminal (Bello being described as a "greasy fat hood" who claimed that he was chased by Carter, a professional boxer who would have done miles of roadwork every day and Artis, who had gone to college on an athletics scholarship and who later admitted he had fingered Carter and Artis for lenient treatment on robbery charges ) and an unemployed unmarried mother living with her de-facto husband and child and another woman in a crappy flat over a bar who was rewarded with a flash apartment in Florida and a beautician's course at the expense of the taxpayers of Passaic County for her evidence, as well as the sloppy handling of exhibits and the changing of evidence between the first and second trials, and both describing the offenders as about 5'11 tall, light skinned blacks, and neither noticed one having a shaved head and a Fu-Manchu moustache, it sounds like the sort of evidence Judge Roy Bean would not have hung a coat on!

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 22 Jan 2008, 18:47

barry, its called losing touch with reality. oprah winfrey was great 20 years ago but now its about making a few tears appear in the eyes of an audience member...and taking the $$$$$$$$$$$

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 04 Feb 2008, 13:19

Carter was a good fighter, it's ture. But by no means, was he a GREAT fighter...

Looking back, Carter will be luky if they name him in the top 20 Middleweights of all time!!!

The likes of Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Collins, Benn, Eubank would all defeat him...

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 04 Feb 2008, 13:58

Well, if he was in the top 20 middleweights of all time, he would have to be a great fighter. He wasn't one of the top 50 middleweights of all time.
He wasn't a great fighter, overall he was good, though inconsistent.
As mentioned, he did give Giardello all that he could handle, knocked out Griffith, and beat Fernendez,Mims and Ellis.
It should also be mentioned that he won a close fight against George Benton.
However, with his many losses he can't be considered a great fighter.