that the old London Prize Ring Rules could ever make a comeback in this politically correct day and age, with fights being truly to the finish?
Myself I dont see why not, considering that the UFC and most MMA organizations is so widely popular and in a sense the London Prize rules was like the UFC before the UFC.
If so, if anyone should be crowned the London Prize Ring rules champion, it should probably be Kimbo Slice, considering he has fought under those very same rules for alot of his "under-ground street fights".
With boxing's popularity waning a bit, especially in the heavyweight division, I think a revision of the London Prize Ring rules would be extremely beneficial to the sport.
Do You Think...
-
Diamond WEAPON
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1729
- Joined: 19 Nov 2006, 01:32
Re: Do You Think...
Was the "Chill Dawg Rule" a part of the LPR regs?HomicideHenry wrote:that the old London Prize Ring Rules could ever make a comeback in this politically correct day and age, with fights being truly to the finish?
Myself I dont see why not, considering that the UFC and most MMA organizations is so widely popular and in a sense the London Prize rules was like the UFC before the UFC.
If so, if anyone should be crowned the London Prize Ring rules champion, it should probably be Kimbo Slice, considering he has fought under those very same rules for alot of his "under-ground street fights".
With boxing's popularity waning a bit, especially in the heavyweight division, I think a revision of the London Prize Ring rules would be extremely beneficial to the sport.
-
Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I never said Klitschko or any real major star in modern boxing had to do it, I was saying do you think it could ever be brought back again and have its own system and organization?
Theres no way Klitschko or any real boxer, in my mind, could make a successful transition to those rules anyways; when you have someone trained too long to fight one certain way, their just unable to get over the mountain, so to speak, in not only a physical sense but a mental one.
Theres no way Klitschko or any real boxer, in my mind, could make a successful transition to those rules anyways; when you have someone trained too long to fight one certain way, their just unable to get over the mountain, so to speak, in not only a physical sense but a mental one.
-
Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
How about concerted, international opposition to the changes from anti-boxing lobbies? We already know these guys go crazy at the sight of a fighter being floored & allowed to continue.
There are stars always coming through the ranks, & high-profile managers always grabbing them. At what point --- & at what level of the sport --- would you like to bring this in? Boxing already struggles to attract it's share of the athletic talent, outhustled & outgunned by basketball, baseball, football, soccer etc, & part of the reason behind that is boxing in it's present form both scares parents away from entering their children, & demands a special, unique type of athlete, the kind that can succeed in other sports can do so with a lot less will & courage than boxing asks of it's competitors.
I don't see that London Prize Rules will enhance boxing at the grassroots level, nor do I see it being tolerated on the superstar stage.
There are stars always coming through the ranks, & high-profile managers always grabbing them. At what point --- & at what level of the sport --- would you like to bring this in? Boxing already struggles to attract it's share of the athletic talent, outhustled & outgunned by basketball, baseball, football, soccer etc, & part of the reason behind that is boxing in it's present form both scares parents away from entering their children, & demands a special, unique type of athlete, the kind that can succeed in other sports can do so with a lot less will & courage than boxing asks of it's competitors.
I don't see that London Prize Rules will enhance boxing at the grassroots level, nor do I see it being tolerated on the superstar stage.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
In all honesty I could see it happen someday. I imagine some network would love to pick it up and showcase it as what pugilism [back in the London Prize days] used to be called "The Sport of Men"...
Throw in some guys from MMA, some journeyman boxers, street fighters, etc and throw them in with these rules and see what happens. You couldnt quite call it boxing, but you couldnt quite call it MMA either. It would have to be given a new name for the age old sport.
And believe you me, given the right rules and circumstances I imagine a 'lesser' man could actually beat a modern day rules boxing champion. What I mean by that is, lets take for example, when Jeremy Williams judo slammed Lennox Lewis in sparring...that just showed me that in a fight to the finish Lewis could never beat Williams.
Mind you, wrestling holds and slams from waist up were allowed back then.
Iono, I just believe that someday, this could come around again, if for just one night only.
Throw in some guys from MMA, some journeyman boxers, street fighters, etc and throw them in with these rules and see what happens. You couldnt quite call it boxing, but you couldnt quite call it MMA either. It would have to be given a new name for the age old sport.
And believe you me, given the right rules and circumstances I imagine a 'lesser' man could actually beat a modern day rules boxing champion. What I mean by that is, lets take for example, when Jeremy Williams judo slammed Lennox Lewis in sparring...that just showed me that in a fight to the finish Lewis could never beat Williams.
Mind you, wrestling holds and slams from waist up were allowed back then.
Iono, I just believe that someday, this could come around again, if for just one night only.
-
Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
You would want that for boxing? For the sport to be developed into a hybrid, go under a new name, & essentially be altered irrevocably from it's current state?
I could never live with that, myself. One night, perhaps. I don't think I would follow boxing anymore if it became what you are envisioning. Just my take.
I could never live with that, myself. One night, perhaps. I don't think I would follow boxing anymore if it became what you are envisioning. Just my take.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Myself I dont see the problem, at one time the London Prize rules and the Marquis of Queensbury did co-exist together and everything was fine then.
Besides, I was referring to boxing as we know it today to be on its own, and the London Prize Ring rules to be its own sport, since it really isnt anything resembling what boxing is today. The two would, in essence, be two different sport genres and be nowhere related to one another, except for maybe a cross reference to the past.
Besides, I was referring to boxing as we know it today to be on its own, and the London Prize Ring rules to be its own sport, since it really isnt anything resembling what boxing is today. The two would, in essence, be two different sport genres and be nowhere related to one another, except for maybe a cross reference to the past.
I suppose 'Kimbo' rules are the London Prize rules.
Youtube it up.
It has a pretty big internet-DVD following.
K-1 - X-rules is basically like this too...just with kicks.
Shootboxing was popular for awhile but lost its flare with
the popularity of MMA.
I would like to see these rules under a well governed legitimate
organisation. BUT MMA with all of its different orgs really has
this market.
MMA, KLickboxing, Thai Boxing, Boxing, Real Pro Wrestling,
K-1, WWE (even though its worked) and the likes really would
make it hard for a new sport to emerge.
World Combat Championships had two classes in it, back in 1995.
The NHB (MMA) component and the Striker (essentially these rules,
bare fist plus kicks and knees). The format did not last as it had only one
PPV airing.
Boxer James Warring did pretty good on this show under this format, he made it to the finals and lost under the MMA rules. He managed to KO Erik Paulson.
Kym
Youtube it up.
It has a pretty big internet-DVD following.
K-1 - X-rules is basically like this too...just with kicks.
Shootboxing was popular for awhile but lost its flare with
the popularity of MMA.
I would like to see these rules under a well governed legitimate
organisation. BUT MMA with all of its different orgs really has
this market.
MMA, KLickboxing, Thai Boxing, Boxing, Real Pro Wrestling,
K-1, WWE (even though its worked) and the likes really would
make it hard for a new sport to emerge.
World Combat Championships had two classes in it, back in 1995.
The NHB (MMA) component and the Striker (essentially these rules,
bare fist plus kicks and knees). The format did not last as it had only one
PPV airing.
Boxer James Warring did pretty good on this show under this format, he made it to the finals and lost under the MMA rules. He managed to KO Erik Paulson.
Kym
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
The rules Kimbo Slice fought under:
1.This is not a mixed martial art or a street fight
2.Only punching allowed (no elbows, knees, kicks, etc.)
3.Stand up fighting only
4.No holding or grappling with opponent is allowed
5.If someone is knocked down he has thirty seconds to get up and continue fighting
6.Ways to win are KO, thirty second count out, and if the other guy quits
Now the London Prize Ring Rules are similar in regards to to 30 second rule, but I imagine Slice's rules were 'fights to the finish' like the London Prize Ring Rules, which went as follows:
That a square of a yard be chalked in the middle of the stage, and on every fresh set-to after a fall, or being parted from the rails, each Second is to bring his Man to the side of the square, and place him opposite to the other, and till they are fairly set-to at the Lines, it shall not be lawful for one to strike at the other.
That, in order to prevent any Disputes, the time a Man lies after a fall, if the Second does not bring his Man to the side of the square, within the space of half a minute, he shall be deemed a beaten Man.
That in every main Battle, no person whatever shall be upon the Stage, except the Principals and their Seconds, the same rule to be observed in bye-battles, except that in the latter, Mr. Broughton is allowed to be upon the Stage to keep decorum, and to assist Gentlemen in getting to their places, provided always he does not interfere in the Battle; and whoever pretends to infringe these Rules to be turned immediately out of the house. Every body is to quit the Stage as soon as the Champions are stripped, before the set-to.
That no Champion be deemed beaten, unless he fails coming up to the line in the limited time, or that his own Second declares him beaten. No Second is to be allowed to ask his man’s Adversary any questions, or advise him to give out.
That in bye-battles, the winning man to have two-thirds of the Money given, which shall be publicly divided upon the Stage, notwithstanding any private agreements to the contrary.
That to prevent Disputes, in every main Battle the Principals shall, on coming on the Stage, choose from among the gentlemen present two Umpires, who shall absolutely decide all Disputes that may arise about the Battle; and if the two Umpires cannot agree, the said Umpires to choose a third, who is to determine it.
That no person is to hit his Adversary when he is down, or seize him by the ham, the breeches, or any part below the waist. A man on his knees is to be reckoned down.
1.This is not a mixed martial art or a street fight
2.Only punching allowed (no elbows, knees, kicks, etc.)
3.Stand up fighting only
4.No holding or grappling with opponent is allowed
5.If someone is knocked down he has thirty seconds to get up and continue fighting
6.Ways to win are KO, thirty second count out, and if the other guy quits
Now the London Prize Ring Rules are similar in regards to to 30 second rule, but I imagine Slice's rules were 'fights to the finish' like the London Prize Ring Rules, which went as follows:
That a square of a yard be chalked in the middle of the stage, and on every fresh set-to after a fall, or being parted from the rails, each Second is to bring his Man to the side of the square, and place him opposite to the other, and till they are fairly set-to at the Lines, it shall not be lawful for one to strike at the other.
That, in order to prevent any Disputes, the time a Man lies after a fall, if the Second does not bring his Man to the side of the square, within the space of half a minute, he shall be deemed a beaten Man.
That in every main Battle, no person whatever shall be upon the Stage, except the Principals and their Seconds, the same rule to be observed in bye-battles, except that in the latter, Mr. Broughton is allowed to be upon the Stage to keep decorum, and to assist Gentlemen in getting to their places, provided always he does not interfere in the Battle; and whoever pretends to infringe these Rules to be turned immediately out of the house. Every body is to quit the Stage as soon as the Champions are stripped, before the set-to.
That no Champion be deemed beaten, unless he fails coming up to the line in the limited time, or that his own Second declares him beaten. No Second is to be allowed to ask his man’s Adversary any questions, or advise him to give out.
That in bye-battles, the winning man to have two-thirds of the Money given, which shall be publicly divided upon the Stage, notwithstanding any private agreements to the contrary.
That to prevent Disputes, in every main Battle the Principals shall, on coming on the Stage, choose from among the gentlemen present two Umpires, who shall absolutely decide all Disputes that may arise about the Battle; and if the two Umpires cannot agree, the said Umpires to choose a third, who is to determine it.
That no person is to hit his Adversary when he is down, or seize him by the ham, the breeches, or any part below the waist. A man on his knees is to be reckoned down.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
fighters can make an easier living nowHomicideHenry wrote:Compare the 100+ bouts the men of yester year had, to the 20-30 bouts guys have today, to me that statement contradicts it's self, if anything they had more gratifying, more accomplished careers than the men of today.Fighters actually have careers
-
Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
And why should fighters not make money?
Why should the MC, round card girl and so on get paid mroe than them ??
Why should a musician, actor, baseball, football etc player make more money than a prize fighter ?
When the sport introduced the Marque Queensbury Rules that is when fighters really started having the larger records so they could live off the sport. Now days there is much less need to have a fighter in and out of the ring 40 times a year.
I would rather a fighter have 40 or so fights in his career against good an entertaining opponents that I can watch and see with my own eyes. Than a guy who had 150 or so fights that are lost in time, that only a caption found beneath a photo or news paper clipping can sum up at best.
I think boxing has evolved for the better, beyond these early rules. It'd be hard to make a case for the sport with those rules. Its hard to justify MMA in most places with the ignorance that flies around.
Why should the MC, round card girl and so on get paid mroe than them ??
Why should a musician, actor, baseball, football etc player make more money than a prize fighter ?
When the sport introduced the Marque Queensbury Rules that is when fighters really started having the larger records so they could live off the sport. Now days there is much less need to have a fighter in and out of the ring 40 times a year.
I would rather a fighter have 40 or so fights in his career against good an entertaining opponents that I can watch and see with my own eyes. Than a guy who had 150 or so fights that are lost in time, that only a caption found beneath a photo or news paper clipping can sum up at best.
I think boxing has evolved for the better, beyond these early rules. It'd be hard to make a case for the sport with those rules. Its hard to justify MMA in most places with the ignorance that flies around.
The reward for the few that make it big is greater.
For every top guy, there are 1000 unknowns who bleed, sweat and cry inside those ropes risking so much for so little. Yet a guy who gets on TV on some reality show or who can sing through a computer can make in one song more than what he would in 20 fights. And he would never know the pain and shame of defeat.
I fight MMA, which is different to boxing, but it pains me to think that I can walk away with all that dissapointment of loss and injury, while knowing that the catering staff got paid more than I did for the nights work.
Not every one is a champion. You need a lot of milk to get the cream.
Kym
For every top guy, there are 1000 unknowns who bleed, sweat and cry inside those ropes risking so much for so little. Yet a guy who gets on TV on some reality show or who can sing through a computer can make in one song more than what he would in 20 fights. And he would never know the pain and shame of defeat.
I fight MMA, which is different to boxing, but it pains me to think that I can walk away with all that dissapointment of loss and injury, while knowing that the catering staff got paid more than I did for the nights work.
Not every one is a champion. You need a lot of milk to get the cream.
Kym
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Its simple really...nobody's kept a real good record of those men. Hell you can go to CBZ and every once in a while you find a new bout or two that some ex champ from the past had that been long forgotten about. Sullivan, if you count his exhibitions, had somewhere around 500 fights; once he had a 50 fight tour knocking out all 50 men. James Figg for all intents and purposes mainly did exhibitions but for over 20 years he was considered the first heavyweight champion.How many 100+ fights did
Jack Broughton
John L Sullivan
James Figg
John Jackson
Benjamin Brain
and so on have ?
what bare knuckle fighters had 100+ fights ?
I guess the rub against the modern guys is, they are not active anymore. They will fight once or twice a year, and take the money, stop training, pig out and get hog fat and then re-train again. If you asked Jake LaMotta, he would say, that whether you won or lost a fight you was still in shape and only a fool would have to retrain themselves all over again, when you could pack in another pay day or two inbetween the bigger fights. There was a more clearer picture back then as to who was better than who; how many men could you name who could have beaten Robinson or Armstrong when they were at their peak? Very, very few.
Today you have guys on the up and up, doing alot of fights, while the 'top' guys get fat and get rich, and the inactivity takes away the question of could he/she beat this person or that person? Back then, there was no question, there was no shadow of doubt, of who would could beat the champion or not.
Quaint and interesting as it may sound, I don't think it will ever happen to any real degree.
There would be too many lawsuits resulting from fights to the finish, too much real police persecution and too many legal headaches involved..
Ironically fights to the finish even back then always had on fighters records "bout stopped by police"...
I suppose modern champions are not as active as past champs such as
Dempsey, Willard, Jefferies, Corbett, etc
The trouble I have with alot of the older Prize rule matches is what is considered professional sportsmanship and what is considered tough guy competition fighting.
Going around and boasting your greatness and licking 50 men is great, but of these men how many are above that of tough guys, bar room louts and loud mouths ? How many are prize fighters.
Bare fist fighting would also limit the longevity of a fighter as the hands as we all know are some what brittle after years of bone and skulls smacking.
I agree that today with big money fights guys lose interest. BUT I do think that if anyone is going to make money from the sport, it should be the athlete.
If a PPV-event earns say $20million profit. Where should the bulk of that go to ?? Why not the athletes ? why should a promoter, manager, judge, round card girl, MC, official, etc get more of that cake than the actual guy that the fans are paying to see.
A modern faggy pop musician makes more these days than say a Bach, Mozart, Gershwin or even a Muddywaters. That does not mean that they are more talented than the past greats. If there is more money in that industry then it should by all means go to the talent ! after all that is what we are paying for.
I have no problem when a Prize fighter makes a lot of money. I would rather it go to them, than say a golfer or cricketer who in my opinion play a recreational game...as opposed to a sport.
Dempsey, Willard, Jefferies, Corbett, etc
The trouble I have with alot of the older Prize rule matches is what is considered professional sportsmanship and what is considered tough guy competition fighting.
Going around and boasting your greatness and licking 50 men is great, but of these men how many are above that of tough guys, bar room louts and loud mouths ? How many are prize fighters.
Bare fist fighting would also limit the longevity of a fighter as the hands as we all know are some what brittle after years of bone and skulls smacking.
I agree that today with big money fights guys lose interest. BUT I do think that if anyone is going to make money from the sport, it should be the athlete.
If a PPV-event earns say $20million profit. Where should the bulk of that go to ?? Why not the athletes ? why should a promoter, manager, judge, round card girl, MC, official, etc get more of that cake than the actual guy that the fans are paying to see.
A modern faggy pop musician makes more these days than say a Bach, Mozart, Gershwin or even a Muddywaters. That does not mean that they are more talented than the past greats. If there is more money in that industry then it should by all means go to the talent ! after all that is what we are paying for.
I have no problem when a Prize fighter makes a lot of money. I would rather it go to them, than say a golfer or cricketer who in my opinion play a recreational game...as opposed to a sport.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I agree with the financial/business side to what you are talking about. And I guess you have a good argument against the London Prize Ring rules with your "dont know if its boxing or a tough guy competition" logic...but you have to understand one thing here...
Back then it was all about who really was better than who. There could be NO doubts about it. I mean hell, imagine if some fights were just a few seconds longer, few rounds more, etc. the results very well could have been vastly different.
The London Prize Rules eliminated such a thought. You could only win via KO, literally knocking a man out, or that man and his seconds called the fight off, more or less quitting; and as well all know it is more honorable and more proper to lose out right than to quit and disgrace not only the title but the sport. There was no inbetweens. It all came down to, who was the king of the mountain, and who had the greater will, and in essence, who truly deserved that championship.
Back then it was all about who really was better than who. There could be NO doubts about it. I mean hell, imagine if some fights were just a few seconds longer, few rounds more, etc. the results very well could have been vastly different.
The London Prize Rules eliminated such a thought. You could only win via KO, literally knocking a man out, or that man and his seconds called the fight off, more or less quitting; and as well all know it is more honorable and more proper to lose out right than to quit and disgrace not only the title but the sport. There was no inbetweens. It all came down to, who was the king of the mountain, and who had the greater will, and in essence, who truly deserved that championship.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43