Prime Joe Frazier vs Prime Mike Tyson

TigerMoth · Post by **TigerMoth** » 08 Mar 2008, 03:16

Please feel free to skip my boring intro:

Unfortunately Cus D'Amato and Jimmy Jacobs died as Mike reached championship caliber. I recall watching videos of Mike at home with Cus and his sister. Mike (I know he hadn't become Mister Perfect) was very respectful and appreciative to Cus and his sister. He used to watch Jacobs video fight collection with Cus (the largest in existence at the time) and revered the old time fighters. Mike wanted to become one of the greats.

After Cus and Jimmy died he came under the influence of Don King (I am not a Don King expert - of course he has done bad things, but, has he done more good for boxing than bad - I don't know). And, Mike was bewitched by Robin Givens (a money seeker in my opinion). And, at what should have been his physical peak he was sent to prison for rape (should have had Kobe Bryant's advisors and lawyers).

Mike, it seems has degraded as a person as well as a boxer without the good influence of Cus and Jimmy. I am no longer a fan of Mike.

But, when he was up and coming, I used to compare him with Joe Frazier (a fighter I admire greatly). Mike, it seemed to me, was a bigger, better version of Joe. Both were small in stature but had devastating power. However, in peak condition, Mike was 10 - 15 lbs heavier. Mike was more two fisted than Joe. Mike, I believe was a bit faster and a bit more skilled (head movement, body attach, and so on).

I believe that if Cus and Jimmy had lived another 10 years Mike would have been the greatest ever. But, they did not. So, Mike, I believe became a kind of lost soul. If you look at his early fights, I think you will agree that Buster Douglas (who fought a great fight - nothing should be taken away from his effort) did not fight Mike Tyson. This was already a guy who had lost his skills - head movement is a good example.

Having said all the above, I recently watched some of Joe Frazier's fights. Joe had incredible heart, stamina, will to win.

Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson - 2 of my favorite fighters.

My prediction - Joe by KO in the final round.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 08 Mar 2008, 03:48

Larry Merchant said it best...

"Frazier was a mile wide and a mile deep...Tyson was a mile wide, and an inch deep"

No one in Mike's corner could have instilled the unparalleled fight and courage needed to meet Smoking Joe Frazier head on and be victorious.

Frazier beats the fight out of Mike within 7 or 8 rounds, in a pretty explosive match up.

Jaybee From The Castle · Post by **Jaybee From The Castle** » 08 Mar 2008, 06:38

yiddo14 wrote:Larry Merchant said it best...

"Frazier was a mile wide and a mile deep...Tyson was a mile wide, and an inch deep"

No one in Mike's corner could have instilled the unparalleled fight and courage needed to meet Smoking Joe Frazier head on and be victorious.

Frazier beats the fight out of Mike within 7 or 8 rounds, in a pretty explosive match up.

Explosive, yes, which in my opinion could SO easily go either way in the first half of the fight. If it gets to the 7th, I'll take Frazier.

banjo · Post by **banjo** » 08 Mar 2008, 10:41

i agree with Jaybee. if it goes more than halfway i'd take frazier.

early on though anything can happen

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 08 Mar 2008, 10:50

Hmmm would be a very intresting Fight...

But i think Tyson Would take it.. Seeing as how Frazier had no answer for Foreman's Bombs..

I feel Tyson would have sent in a few Fast powerful Uppercuts to render Frazier in Panic and out of Control...

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 08 Mar 2008, 14:06

Foreman missed as many punches as he landed in his first fight with Frazier. Tyson hits similarly hard, but his punch delivery is shorter, more precise, & a hell of a lot faster. I don't see how the slow-starting Frazier can possibly get out of the way of Tyson's best shots, & I do not believe he could absorb the power. Three or four knockdowns seem likely to me. Frazier wasn't physically strong, & he could in no way tie Tyson up in close. This fight is stopped somewhere in the first three or four rounds. Don't think for a second Tyson's power wouldn't hurt Frazier. It surely would. About the only way Frazier could win in my view is if Tyson unravelled at the prospect of facing such a formidable foe (it's possible, you've got to say) & missing his opportunity to bust Frazier up in the early going. Still, I don't see it.

Let me say this, though --- I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 08 Mar 2008, 14:23

Tyson was simply all wrong for Frazier in my view! Tyson is probably the fastest starter in boxing history, Frazier was notoriously a slow starter.

I can't see Joe getting through the onslaught he would face in the first few rounds. There's always a chance he could & then perhaps it would become a different bout. The longer the fight goes, the better chance Joe would have.

That said, Tyson at his best, could finish a fight at any time in any round. I just don't see the bout getting past three rounds. Tyson by KO for me.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 08 Mar 2008, 14:28

Rocky Balboa wrote:Tyson was simply all wrong for Frazier in my view! Tyson is probably the fastest starter in boxing history, Frazier was notoriously a slow starter.

I can't see Joe getting through the onslaught he would face in the first few rounds. There's always a chance he could & then perhaps it would become a different bout. The longer the fight goes, the better chance Joe would have.

That said, Tyson at his best, could finish a fight at any time in any round. I just don't see the bout getting past three rounds. Tyson by KO for me.

Are you saying KO as in Tyson would floor Frazier for a ten-count? Because, IMO, that is a very bold call. Or are you stating KO in the generic sense of the word, i.e. KO/TKO same thing?

tennessee · Post by **tennessee** » 08 Mar 2008, 14:47

easy prediction. joe could be hurt early, and mike hurt most everyone early. if it went a few rounds and smokin joe got going, it would be an easy win

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 08 Mar 2008, 17:13

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Rocky Balboa wrote:Tyson was simply all wrong for Frazier in my view! Tyson is probably the fastest starter in boxing history, Frazier was notoriously a slow starter.

I can't see Joe getting through the onslaught he would face in the first few rounds. There's always a chance he could & then perhaps it would become a different bout. The longer the fight goes, the better chance Joe would have.

That said, Tyson at his best, could finish a fight at any time in any round. I just don't see the bout getting past three rounds. Tyson by KO for me.
Are you saying KO as in Tyson would floor Frazier for a ten-count? Because, IMO, that is a very bold call. Or are you stating KO in the generic sense of the word, i.e. KO/TKO same thing?

I'm just using KO in the generic sense of the word! I don't think Frazier would stay down for the complete count of ten. Guys like Foreman couldn't do it to him, so I cannot see Tyson being able to. Frazier was durable & tough.

Frazier would come to win against Tyson, but I just think that Joe would get hit too often. Tyson would be too quick for Frazier.

However ong the fight would have lasted, what a bout it would have been! There would have most certainly been fireworks!

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 08 Mar 2008, 20:06

In 1986 Iron Mike, in my humble opinion, would have beaten most HW's prime for prime. Tyson would have come about blazing and steamrolled Smokin Joe early. Frazier's only chance would to hurt Tyson on way in with a left hook, but Tyson was so quick on the attack with his peek-a-boo style.

Frazier was in his prime in 71, but I fail to see anything in his arsenal to trouble Tyson. It would be dis-similar to Foreman's win over Frazier in 73.

Tyson TKO 4 Frazier.

Jaybee From The Castle · Post by **Jaybee From The Castle** » 09 Mar 2008, 05:50

Rocky Balboa wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Rocky Balboa wrote:Tyson was simply all wrong for Frazier in my view! Tyson is probably the fastest starter in boxing history, Frazier was notoriously a slow starter.

I can't see Joe getting through the onslaught he would face in the first few rounds. There's always a chance he could & then perhaps it would become a different bout. The longer the fight goes, the better chance Joe would have.

That said, Tyson at his best, could finish a fight at any time in any round. I just don't see the bout getting past three rounds. Tyson by KO for me.
Are you saying KO as in Tyson would floor Frazier for a ten-count? Because, IMO, that is a very bold call. Or are you stating KO in the generic sense of the word, i.e. KO/TKO same thing?

I'm just using KO in the generic sense of the word! I don't think Frazier would stay down for the complete count of ten. Guys like Foreman couldn't do it to him, so I cannot see Tyson being able to. Frazier was durable & tough.

Frazier would come to win against Tyson, but I just think that Joe would get hit too often. Tyson would be too quick for Frazier.

However ong the fight would have lasted, what a bout it would have been! There would have most certainly been fireworks!

True, possibly juicier than Tyson Vs Ali

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 09 Mar 2008, 07:11

Tyson's one of those fighters that didn't necessarily achieve as much greatness and accomplishments as HWs ranked higher than him all-time in his class, but that could probably beat nearly any of them prime-for-prime. Tyson's speed and power combined would be enough to stop Frazier within 6 imo though that's not to say that Frazier wouldn't be able to stun or wobble Tyson as well, Frazier could hit very hard and I'd pick a prime Frazier to beat most any HW in history because his power, pressure, and skill were all at such a high level, but Tyson's style just seems wrong for him.

Tyson TKO6 for me, though I see both fighters hurting each other and Frazier flooring Tyson once.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 09 Mar 2008, 08:27

Loki wrote:In 1986 Iron Mike, in my humble opinion, would have beaten most HW's prime for prime. Tyson would have come about blazing and steamrolled Smokin Joe early. Frazier's only chance would to hurt Tyson on way in with a left hook, but Tyson was so quick on the attack with his peek-a-boo style.

Frazier was in his prime in 71, but I fail to see anything in his arsenal to trouble Tyson. It would be dis-similar to Foreman's win over Frazier in 73.

Tyson TKO 4 Frazier.

So who, then, are the great Heavyweights that would have beaten that Tyson?

HeavyHitters · Post by **HeavyHitters** » 09 Mar 2008, 17:32

yiddo14 wrote:Larry Merchant said it best...

"Frazier was a mile wide and a mile deep...Tyson was a mile wide, and an inch deep"

No one in Mike's corner could have instilled the unparalleled fight and courage needed to meet Smoking Joe Frazier head on and be victorious.

Frazier beats the fight out of Mike within 7 or 8 rounds, in a pretty explosive match up.

Ha Ha Ha!!!

How about after Foreman bounced Frazier around the ring!? Frazier's skin was like a .125" of rubber!!

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 10 Mar 2008, 03:25

Nice quote by Merchant, but jusrt because he said it dont mean it is true.

I think this is like alot of you guys have said, a bad match for Frazier. regardless of who is a better man, or nicer outside the rimg...I think Tyson wins by a TKO around round 4.

I am a bigger fan of Frazier than Tyson but I find it hard, at peak for peak that Frazier beats Iron Mike.

It'd be interesting while it lasted and trying to look at this without the perception of willing my favourite guy to win, I just see stylistically, attributes-weaknesses etc...that Tyson wins.

Kym

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 10 Mar 2008, 15:21

For once what Merchant says does have some merit.
In some ways they were similar fighters.

Tyson's did have have better handspeed and a more powerful right hand (though Frazier's is underrated). Tyson's biggest advantage was that Frazier was often a slow starter.
However, Frazier was much tougher, which means a lot in a fight like this. He also had better head movement, and a better chin.

However, if Frazier survives the early rounds (and he probably would) he would win this.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 10 Mar 2008, 16:05

This is a tough one for me.

Logic says that fast starting tornado style Tyson rips slow starting Frazier, but it's not quite that simple.

Joe Frazier had one of the biggest hearts in boxing history, whereas Tyson tended to fold like a newspaper when put under pressure.

I can envisage Tyson decking Frazier, but I can see Frazier getting up & that's where Tyson would have problems.

Tyson was not used to seeing opponents get up & fight back & Frazier probably would have done so.

I can't say with any conviction, but I think that Frazier rallies back after an early knockdown to wear down & break Tyson's heart in the 11th.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Mar 2008, 16:47

I used to think Tyson gets Frazier out early.

But now I've gotten smarter and realize Frazier would've prevailed and stopped Tyson late.

Tyson gets way too much credit for the possibility of early fight knockouts in fantasy fights. Look at who he actually took out in 1-3 rounds . . .plenty of fighters 10 times lesser than Smokin' Joe survived the early rounds vs Tyson.

Also, Foreman set up his first knockdown keeping Frazier at the end of a long range jab, something Tyson lacked (and also a little illegal shoving)

Frazier gets hurt and loses the opening rounds, but by the 5th is completly in control and ends up beating Tyson up in the later rounds to a 10th round TKO.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 10 Mar 2008, 17:17

dempseyfire wrote:I used to think Tyson gets Frazier out early.

But now I've gotten smarter and realize Frazier would've prevailed and stopped Tyson late.

Tyson gets way too much credit for the possibility of early fight knockouts in fantasy fights. Look at who he actually took out in 1-3 rounds . . .plenty of fighters 10 times lesser than Smokin' Joe survived the early rounds vs Tyson.

Also, Foreman set up his first knockdown keeping Frazier at the end of a long range jab, something Tyson lacked (and also a little illegal shoving)

Frazier gets hurt and loses the opening rounds, but by the 5th is completly in control and ends up beating Tyson up in the later rounds to a 10th round TKO.

Even though I'd go with Tyson, this is a very reasonable analysis. Tyson is not Foreman so he would most likely have to beat Frazier with an inside game, and that was pretty hard to do.

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 10 Mar 2008, 17:20

Indeed they would both have to Fight on the Inside, since they were those type of fighters...

I would say Tysons Speed would be enough for the inside fight.

Even though Tyson tended to be worried by resistance, he was not exactly useless. We're talking about a Prime Tyson here... Who can easily hold his own.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 10 Mar 2008, 23:54

Another Iron Mike rub out

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 11 Mar 2008, 05:52

observer1 wrote:Indeed they would both have to Fight on the Inside, since they were those type of fighters...

I would say Tysons Speed would be enough for the inside fight.

Even though Tyson tended to be worried by resistance, he was not exactly useless. We're talking about a Prime Tyson here... Who can easily hold his own.

But the problem with Tyson's so-called prime is that it seemed to end the first time he was met with real adversity, or so it seems.

Most people say he was shot when he lost to Douglas, but I'm not so sure.

It maybe that be didn't prepare properly or underestimated Douglas, but I find it hard to believe that he was past his best at 23; he probably hadn't even reached it yet!!!

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Mar 2008, 08:04

"...Most people say he was shot when he lost to Douglas, but I'm not so sure...." - Syntax

Who says that!? Slap them across the face, if you ever hear someone utter something so ludicrous. It's one (silly) thing to say Tyson was past his prime when he faced Douglas (shortly before his 24th birthday, LOL), but to say he's shot!? Absurd excuse-making.

He wasn't shot, & he wasn't past his best. Under-prepped? Yeah, that I could see. He sure was living the high life at this point. Even so, that was still the same Mike Tyson who decimated Berbick, Holmes & Spinks. There are only excuses for the loss to Douglas --- nothing legitimate.

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:17

I still think, even if Tyson went to the Douglas fight un-prepared as he was, if he actually had some decent corner men who knew what they were doing, Tyson would have won eventually...

To go as far as did in that state (i mean like that eye ffs) is beyond me....

I do agree Tyson did struggle against those opponents who looked dominant... But remember Tyson went the distance against some Solid opponents like BoneCrusher Smith and TNT Tucker, even Ruddock just before he got sent down...

Im saying, we are talking about Tyson here, not Audely Harrison

Prime Joe Frazier vs Prime Mike Tyson

What would the result be?

Prime Joe Frazier vs Prime Mike Tyson

A Rubber Ball!