George Foreman V Joe Frazier

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Joe Frazier would have been a great champion in any era...His only four losses came against one of the greatest boxers and one of the greatest punchers of any era...

However it is unfair to George Foreman to denigrate his victory by saying Joe Frazier was old or out of shape. He wasn't old (twenty nine years old) or particularly out of shape (214 pounds).
George Foreman just had his number;he feasted on pressure fighters...

Big George has five losses;two losses as a young man (Young and Ali) and three losses as an old man (Morrison, Briggs, and Holyfield)...None of them won by taking the fight to George...They won by avoiding him and letting himself tire out...Holyfield was somewhere in the middle and expressed a willingness to trade at times...

Maybe a way to look at is Joe was a great swarmer, Ali was a great boxer/tactician, and Foreman was a great slugger...

[Knucklez]

The three way rivallery perfectly sums of the mantra "styles make fights".

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The three way rivallery perfectly sums of the mantra "styles make fights".

Big George was so strong... I don't see how you can ever beat him by taking the fight to him...

[My2Sense]

However it is unfair to George Foreman to denigrate his victory by saying Joe Frazier was old or out of shape. He wasn't old (twenty nine years old) or particularly out of shape (214 pounds).

I think 214 pounds is particularly out of shape for Frazier, whose best fighting weight was around 200-205. Even before the Foreman fight, most people generally acknowledged that Frazier was detrimentally overweight against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. He also didn't fight anything remotely resembling a rated contender for close to two years after Ali. He basically let himself go and never really regained his form (although shades of it did reappear against Bugner).

The reason I don't believe Foreman should be denegrated is simply because Frazier came into the fight as a sizeable favorite (at least 3-1) and no one in their right minds ever thought he could do what he did to Frazier, out of shape or not.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

However it is unfair to George Foreman to denigrate his victory by saying Joe Frazier was old or out of shape. He wasn't old (twenty nine years old) or particularly out of shape (214 pounds).

I think 214 pounds is particularly out of shape for Frazier, whose best fighting weight was around 200-205. Even before the Foreman fight, most people generally acknowledged that Frazier was detrimentally overweight against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. He also didn't fight anything remotely resembling a rated contender for close to two years after Ali. He basically let himself go and never really regained his form (although shades of it did reappear against Bugner).

The reason I don't believe Foreman should be denegrated is simply because Frazier came into the fight as a sizeable favorite (at least 3-1) and no one in their right minds ever thought he could do what he did to Frazier, out of shape or not.

Having lived through that era ( a kid that loved boxing) I never thought Stander and Daniels were worthy challengers...Going from the likes of them to a monster like Foreman is like going from dating Kathy Bates to Scarlett Johansson...

[raylawpc]

However it is unfair to George Foreman to denigrate his victory by saying Joe Frazier was old or out of shape. He wasn't old (twenty nine years old) or particularly out of shape (214 pounds).

I think 214 pounds is particularly out of shape for Frazier, whose best fighting weight was around 200-205. Even before the Foreman fight, most people generally acknowledged that Frazier was detrimentally overweight against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. He also didn't fight anything remotely resembling a rated contender for close to two years after Ali. He basically let himself go and never really regained his form (although shades of it did reappear against Bugner).

The reason I don't believe Foreman should be denegrated is simply because Frazier came into the fight as a sizeable favorite (at least 3-1) and no one in their right minds ever thought he could do what he did to Frazier, out of shape or not.

Having lived through that era ( a kid that loved boxing) I never thought Stander and Daniels were worthy challengers...Going from the likes of them to a monster like Foreman is like going from dating Kathy Bates to Scarlett Johansson...

Except it would be a good thing to go from Kathy Bates to Scarlett Johansson. (Nothing against Kathy Bates, who is probably a real sweet lady with a great personality - - - but, after all, Scarlett Johansson . . . ! !)

I like how Stander's then-wife Darlene described the match. She said matching Ron with Frazier was akin to putting a Volkswagen in the Indy 500.

[Seamus]

Frazier had one huge win in his career, and that's the fight almost everybody rates him on. His title defenses against Daniels and Stander were ridiculous, and then alot of people cut him slack for not being in the best of shape vs Foreman. Wonder how many are as forgiving for Lennox Lewis getting KO'd at 35 in his 41st pro fight as opposed to Frazier getting destroyed at 29 in his 30th bout.

Frazier was always exciting and displayed alot of courage and stamina in his fights, but he was still overrated. Had it been for the 5 or 10 pt must system, he probably loses a SD to Bonavena in there first bout. I know it was Frazier's 12th fight, but Bonavena's biggest win at the time was a MD against George Chuvalo.

Against Foreman he was always going to get KO'd, because he didn't have the defense to avoid Big George's power. And his philosophy of "I'll always take a punch to land a punch" is a recipe for disaster against a big hitter. I think a guy like Earnie Shavers might have KO'd Frazier if they had met after the 1st Ali bout, AND if he landed first.

[The Great John L]

I grew up in the 60's and early 70's and attended a lot of fights with my father in addition to watching just about every fight I could on TV. I also used to think that Foreman had Frazier's number, but looking back it's not too difficult to imagine a peek in shape Frazier lasting long enough to wear down Foreman. He was pretty much obese and well past his peak wjhen he lasted into the 5th against Foreman, so a prime Frazier lasting a few rounds longer doesn;t seem too unlikely.

So while I would say that prime v prime Foreman would beat Frazier 3-4 times out of 5, Frazier probably could pulled off a few wins as well.

And no, Frazier isn't rated merely for his win over Ali. Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Mathis and Bugner is a very good resume, not including a host of other fringe contenders. You could argue any fighter being over rated, or under rated. It's just a matter of how you view his accomplishments. But Frazier certainly had a lot more than a win over Ali.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I grew up in the 60's and early 70's and attended a lot of fights with my father in addition to watching just about every fight I could on TV. I also used to think that Foreman had Frazier's number, but looking back it's not too difficult to imagine a peek in shape Frazier lasting long enough to wear down Foreman. He was pretty much obese and well past his peak wjhen he lasted into the 5th against Foreman, so a prime Frazier lasting a few rounds longer doesn;t seem too unlikely.

So while I would say that prime v prime Foreman would beat Frazier 3-4 times out of 5, Frazier probably could pulled off a few wins as well.

And no, Frazier isn't rated merely for his win over Ali. Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Mathis and Bugner is a very good resume, not including a host of other fringe contenders. You could argue any fighter being over rated, or under rated. It's just a matter of how you view his accomplishments. But Frazier certainly had a lot more than a win over Ali.

A few points...

After Ali beat Shavers there was talk of a Frazier-Shavers fight ...I don't know what happened...

I just don't see any boxer, living or dead, beating a prime George Foreman by taking the fight to him...Cus D'Amato specifically cited Frazier 's performance as the way not to beat George Foreman...

If there were no Ali, Frazier would have a great career until he met George Foreman...But what would his resume look like without the Ali win and with the Foreman losses...

Ditto for Norton...While he is not rated as high as Frazier if not for his lone win over Ali his career would be defined by blow out losses to George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, and Gerry Cooney, albeit at different stages of his career...

[Robinson]

I think one can take the fight to Foreman and live.

I just dont think that they should go about it flat footed
and face first.

You see Frazier was looking for that left hook to end
the night. It didnt happen and was not going to happpen.

Frazier of then, was not the same versatile slugger cum
pressure puncher that he was on his way up. It seems after
the 1971 win over Ali he figured he could just rely almost
exclusively on that left hook. It was an over used trump card
much like Ruddock years later with the 'smash'.

I mentioned it on another thread but I think Qawi's loss to
Foreman tends to illustrate that a small pressure guy can
give George alot of trouble.

I think nearly every time Frazier loses to Foreman and generally
other guys from this ilk, say a 1992 Bowe (sorry guys..) but
at the same time Frazier does better against guys that tend to
flick and run or jab and grab than Foreman does.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I think one can take the fight to Foreman and live.

I just dont think that they should go about it flat footed
and face first.

You see Frazier was looking for that left hook to end
the night. It didnt happen and was not going to happpen.

Frazier of then, was not the same versatile slugger cum
pressure puncher that he was on his way up. It seems after
the 1971 win over Ali he figured he could just rely almost
exclusively on that left hook. It was an over used trump card
much like Ruddock years later with the 'smash'.

I mentioned it on another thread but I think Qawi's loss to
Foreman tends to illustrate that a small pressure guy can
give George alot of trouble.

I think nearly every time Frazier loses to Foreman and generally
other guys from this ilk, say a 1992 Bowe (sorry guys..) but
at the same time Frazier does better against guys that tend to
flick and run or jab and grab than Foreman does.

Old George has three losses and Young George has two losses...What did the victors all have in common?

Joe has four losses...What did the victors have in common?

Not much, that suggests there was more than one way to beat Joe...

[elmersalsa]

I don't care what anybody says...If it were the great Joe Frazier that beat Ali in the Fight of the Century in Kingston, Jamaica would have been a different story.

Put the Foreman that demolished Joe in the night of March 8, 1971 and would have been another Smokin' Joe's victim in his list.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I don't care what anybody says...If it were the great Joe Frazier that beat Ali in the Fight of the Century in Kingston, Jamaica would have been a different story.

Put the Foreman that demolished Joe in the night of March 8, 1971 and would have been another Smokin' Joe's victim in his list.

He still would have walked into Big George's lumbering fists...Styles make fights and his style was all wrong for Big George...Cus D'Amato used to show Mike Tyson this film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7GHxyRx ... re=related

and told Mike this is the way you never fight Big George...

Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result...Joe knew how to fight one way and that was to swarm his opponent...With someone like George Foreman that is assisted suicide...

[elmersalsa]

I don't care what anybody says...If it were the great Joe Frazier that beat Ali in the Fight of the Century in Kingston, Jamaica would have been a different story.

Put the Foreman that demolished Joe in the night of March 8, 1971 and would have been another Smokin' Joe's victim in his list.

He still would have walked into Big George's lumbering fists...Styles make fights and his style was all wrong for Big George...Cus D'Amato used to show Mike Tyson this film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7GHxyRx ... re=related

and told Mike this is the way you never fight Big George...

Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result...Joe knew how to fight one way and that was to swarm his opponent...With someone like George Foreman that is assisted suicide...

I did not see Frazier's bobbing and weaving so effectively done with the likes of Quarry, Ali and Ellis. He looked very slow in Jamaica. In Jamaica he was an easy target for Foreman. In the fight of the century with Ali, Ali said that Frazier was harder to hit than he thought he would connect.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I don't care what anybody says...If it were the great Joe Frazier that beat Ali in the Fight of the Century in Kingston, Jamaica would have been a different story.

Put the Foreman that demolished Joe in the night of March 8, 1971 and would have been another Smokin' Joe's victim in his list.

He still would have walked into Big George's lumbering fists...Styles make fights and his style was all wrong for Big George...Cus D'Amato used to show Mike Tyson this film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7GHxyRx ... re=related

and told Mike this is the way you never fight Big George...

Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result...Joe knew how to fight one way and that was to swarm his opponent...With someone like George Foreman that is assisted suicide...

I did not see Frazier's bobbing and weaving so effectively done with the likes of Quarry, Ali and Ellis. He looked very slow in Jamaica. In Jamaica he was an easy target for Foreman. In the fight of the century with Ali, Ali said that Frazier was harder to hit than he thought he would connect.

Joe's bobbing and weaving made him incredibly hard to hit cleanly...But even glancing blows from Foreman will rock you...Plus, Joe was a swarmer in the fights you cited pressuring a boxer whose first instinct is to backpedal...Against George, his first instinct is to wallop you...

[Ambling Alp]

I grew up in the 60's and early 70's and attended a lot of fights with my father in addition to watching just about every fight I could on TV. I also used to think that Foreman had Frazier's number, but looking back it's not too difficult to imagine a peek in shape Frazier lasting long enough to wear down Foreman. He was pretty much obese and well past his peak wjhen he lasted into the 5th against Foreman, so a prime Frazier lasting a few rounds longer doesn;t seem too unlikely.

So while I would say that prime v prime Foreman would beat Frazier 3-4 times out of 5, Frazier probably could pulled off a few wins as well.

And no, Frazier isn't rated merely for his win over Ali. Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Mathis and Bugner is a very good resume, not including a host of other fringe contenders. You could argue any fighter being over rated, or under rated. It's just a matter of how you view his accomplishments. But Frazier certainly had a lot more than a win over Ali.

A few points...

After Ali beat Shavers there was talk of a Frazier-Shavers fight ...I don't know what happened...

I just don't see any boxer, living or dead, beating a prime George Foreman by taking the fight to him...Cus D'Amato specifically cited Frazier 's performance as the way not to beat George Foreman...

If there were no Ali, Frazier would have a great career until he met George Foreman...But what would his resume look like without the Ali win and with the Foreman losses...

Ditto for Norton...While he is not rated as high as Frazier if not for his lone win over Ali his career would be defined by blow out losses to George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, and Gerry Cooney, albeit at different stages of his career...

-After Ali beat Shavers (1977), there was talk of a Shavers-Frazier fight? I don't remember that myself. I don't Frazier wanted to fight anymore after the 2nd Foreman fight. (1976)

Well of course Frazier career wouldn't look as good without the Ali win. However, as John L mentioned he still beat a lot of very fighters. Outside of Ali himself and Louis, Frazier's "victim list" is probably as good as any other heavyweight champion, if you took out everyone elses biggest win as well.

As Norton, well he still the great fight with Holmes, and his wins over Young, Quarry and Bobick.

Saying the Cooney fight is important in defining Norton makes as much sense as saying the Berbick fight was important in defining Ali's career or the Jumbo Cummings fight is important in defining Frazier's career, or the Brian Nielson fight is an important fight of Larry Holmes career. They are all meaningless.

Take off the best win of anyone's career and they aren't going to look as good. Take out Foreman's win over Frazier, and he doesn't look quite as good either.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I grew up in the 60's and early 70's and attended a lot of fights with my father in addition to watching just about every fight I could on TV. I also used to think that Foreman had Frazier's number, but looking back it's not too difficult to imagine a peek in shape Frazier lasting long enough to wear down Foreman. He was pretty much obese and well past his peak wjhen he lasted into the 5th against Foreman, so a prime Frazier lasting a few rounds longer doesn;t seem too unlikely.

So while I would say that prime v prime Foreman would beat Frazier 3-4 times out of 5, Frazier probably could pulled off a few wins as well.

And no, Frazier isn't rated merely for his win over Ali. Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Mathis and Bugner is a very good resume, not including a host of other fringe contenders. You could argue any fighter being over rated, or under rated. It's just a matter of how you view his accomplishments. But Frazier certainly had a lot more than a win over Ali.

A few points...

After Ali beat Shavers there was talk of a Frazier-Shavers fight ...I don't know what happened...

I just don't see any boxer, living or dead, beating a prime George Foreman by taking the fight to him...Cus D'Amato specifically cited Frazier 's performance as the way not to beat George Foreman...

If there were no Ali, Frazier would have a great career until he met George Foreman...But what would his resume look like without the Ali win and with the Foreman losses...

Ditto for Norton...While he is not rated as high as Frazier if not for his lone win over Ali his career would be defined by blow out losses to George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, and Gerry Cooney, albeit at different stages of his career...

-After Ali beat Shavers (1977), there was talk of a Shavers-Frazier fight? I don't remember that myself. I don't Frazier wanted to fight anymore after the 2nd Foreman fight. (1976)

Well of course Frazier career wouldn't look as good without the Ali win. However, as John L mentioned he still beat a lot of very fighters. Outside of Ali himself and Louis, Frazier's "victim list" is probably as good as any other heavyweight champion, if you took out everyone elses biggest win as well.

As Norton, well he still the great fight with Holmes, and his wins over Young, Quarry and Bobick.

Saying the Cooney fight is important in defining Norton makes as much sense as saying the Berbick fight was important in defining Ali's career or the Jumbo Cummings fight is important in defining Frazier's career, or the Brian Nielson fight is an important fight of Larry Holmes career. They are all meaningless.

Take off the best win of anyone's career and they aren't going to look as good. Take out Foreman's win over Frazier, and he doesn't look quite as good either.

That's why I added , albeit at different stages of his career... It's like Tyson beating a past it Holmes or Camacho beating a well, well past it Leonard, the one sidedness of the fight is still remarkable...

Heck, Tommy Gunn beat George Foreman...If we dismiss that fight how do we account for him winning the championship in the fight after it...

And as for Foreman if Frazier beats Ali in Frazier-Ali ll, there might not be a Rumble In The Jungle and George Foreman retires undefeated...I don't think Jimmy Young beats Foreman if there is no Rumble In The Jungle...George still has his air of invincibility and doesn't worry about surviving until the twelfth or fifteenth round and knocks his opponent out in the first and second round...It's all conjecture but I don't see Larry Holmes beating a Rumbless George Foreman...

We could very well be talking about Big George as the GOAT...


You raise another point...I'm paraphrasing "if you remove a fighter's biggest win his resume doesn't look as impressive"...Hagler was Ray Leonard's biggest win but if you remove Hagler he still is the winner of three "super fights"- the Duran fight, the Hearns figfht, and the Benitez fight... If you remove Ali's win over Frazier he still has his big wins over Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, and George Foreman...

[Ambling Alp]

I do realize that you mentioned "albiet at different stages of his career". However, I just don't think it should be mentioned at all. It's 100% meaningless when rating either Cooney or Norton. ( For waht it's worth, I think Norton probably would have whipped him he been in his prime.)
All we can do is go by fights that that did happen when both fighters are close to their prime.

I'm not sure what your point was about "Tommy Gunn" (Morrison) beating Foreman and how do we account for foreman winning the title back in his next fight. I don't see how the Morrison fight had anything to do with the Moorer fight.

I agree that if Frazier would have won the 2nd fight with Ali than there wouldn't have been a third Ali-Frazier fight. Frazier would have been 2-0 and there probably wouldn't have been much interest in a 3rd fight.

I'm not sure about Foreman retiring undefeated if Ali would have lost to Frazier the 2nd time. Maybe, but there are a lot scenarios that could have unfolded. He certainly wouldn't have had to fight Ali in 1974. We can only speculate. Ali would have went down in the rankings and he may have even retired.

Foreman probably would have defended the title a couple of times a year for the next few years.
He wouldn't have disappeared for a year like he did. He probably would have fought Frazier again in late 1974 instead of Ali.
Foreman probably wins within 5 rounds, but maybe Frazier gets lucky and lands a left hook early. Who knows?

He may have lost to Jimmy Young anyway.
Maybe he would have fought Earnie Shavers in say 1977. Shavers certainly would have a punchers chance against Foreman. Certainly would be fun to watch while it lasted.
Maybe Ali rebounds from the 2nd Frazier fight, wins several fights in a row and gets a chance against Foreman in 1976 or 1977 and beats him. (he would have more gas in the tank because he woudn't have had the 3rd Frazier fight).
By 1978, Holmes would be on the scene.

All you can really do is judge people on the relevant fights that did happen.

[Robinson]

Lets not over look the fact that big George nearly had Young out
in that fight. Young did a tremendous job of engaging and dis-engaging
to win that fight.

The Morrison fight was testimony to Morrsion being disciplined
and showing he can 'box' and stick to a game plan. He won that
decison clearly and impressively. The Moorer fight was going just
as bad for George until he landed that mighty battering ram.

The Frazier of 1973, like I have said before was a man in love with
his own power. This in my opinion cost him the second Ali fight in
1974, and most certainly the Foreman fight.

Frazier showed glimpses of his late 1960s style against Bugner when
he used all of his tools and attacked the body.

I think Foreman had he faced a better version of Frazier would have
won less decisevley, but may very well have won all the same. I do
tend to believe that Foreman had his number, BUT I am not convinced
that this is an absolute.

[p4p1]

foreman stunned frazier real early which made frazier look vunerable he stunned ken norton ear;y which had the same effect because of his power he could stun a fighter real early and beat on them for a while

[Robinson]

He had that numbing power even well into his later years..
just watch his come back fights he lands the jab squarely
on his opponents and you see them just stunned...

take a guy like Sekorski...not an ATG but he was a hard headed,
stiff jawed professional...yet Foreman, while not dropping him
clearly stunned him every single time that jab landed.

[p4p1]

He had that numbing power even well into his later years..
just watch his come back fights he lands the jab squarely
on his opponents and you see them just stunned...

take a guy like Sekorski...not an ATG but he was a hard headed,
stiff jawed professional...yet Foreman, while not dropping him
clearly stunned him every single time that jab landed.

the jab was a battering ram it hurt everyone in his comeback for the moorer fight he tried to stop putting power in the jab so he could land the right coz everytime he landed a good jab on holyfield he went back and george missed with the right but the power in his comeback really did look freakish

[Robinson]

P4P1 very true what you said about the Holyfield fight...

I think Foreman dedicated more time to strength and
power in the come back and focused less to a complete
boxing type regime.

While many regarded him as fat and over weight..he had
alot of hard functioning power popping muscle beneath that
burger meat.

I have to re-watch the Moorer fight now, and observe that...
I have not watched that fight for some time now.

[p4p1]

P4P1 very true what you said about the Holyfield fight...

I think Foreman dedicated more time to strength and
power in the come back and focused less to a complete
boxing type regime.

While many regarded him as fat and over weight..he had
alot of hard functioning power popping muscle beneath that
burger meat.

I have to re-watch the Moorer fight now, and observe that...
I have not watched that fight for some time now.

i have a dvd of foreman i think its called history in the making and on one of the first parts and he has a weigh-in and flexes his muscle and he woiuld have to have some of the biggest arms i have ever seen even in proportion to his body they are still huge ill look it up see if i can find the pic

[p4p1]

the pic should be here in the link http://www.jamd.com/search?assettype=g& ... reman+arms