Calzaghe-Toney. Prime?

[Rocky Balboa]

Match made at 168lbs, who gets your vote & why?

[hitman_hatton1]

cakzaghe on his workrate for me.

116-112 sort of scores.

[Coco]

JC for me too, he could do what Nunn did for most of the fight, but without fading and getting KO'd, 116-112 is about right

[hitman_hatton1]

i know theres this legend about toney.

but for me in his prime was well beatable by good fighters with a good workrate and tough enuff chin.

mike mccallum was unlucky in the 1st fight and absolutely robbed in the 2nd fight.

bare in mind he was in his mid 30's at the time.

and then that run he had between 96-2002.

all those cans he fought.

and people criticise ricky hatton.

[TerribleTerry]

The Toney who beat Barkley and McCallum would have beaten the piss out of Calzaghe.

[hitman_hatton1]

The Toney who beat Barkley and McCallum would have beaten the piss out of Calzaghe.

yeah and those guys aren't calzaghe.

and when did he beat the piss out of mccallum.

rd 12 of the 1st fight.

that was about it.

mccallum was out-jabbing his ass.

[TerribleTerry]

The Toney who beat Barkley and McCallum would have beaten the piss out of Calzaghe.

and when did he beat the piss out of mccallum.

re-read my post - I never said he did..

Doesnt change my opinion that he would have too much for JC though.

[hitman_hatton1]

The Toney who beat Barkley and McCallum would have beaten the piss out of Calzaghe.

and when did he beat the piss out of mccallum.

re-read my post - I never said he did..

Doesnt change my opinion that he would have too much for JC though.

thought toney was a bit average first time round against mccallum.

got away with it i thought.

unless ya mean that 3rd fight.

which i haven't seen.

[black panther]

If Toney did the weight alright I'd make him the favourite...but his lack of discipline was/is his downfall. Also I think Calzaghe in his pomp is a better puncher than he's given credit for. Without the problems with his left-hand Calzaghe had decent power - I could envisage Calzaghe outworking Toney but Toney making him miss and landing the cleaner shots. Toney by SD.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Calazage just doesn't have the defense or timing to beat Toney. Joe has always been open to right hands, Toney has 1 of the best slip and right hand counters ever, Toney is also ultra slippery and a big puncher at 168. Toney 116-112 - and it could be wider or a KO

[EddieShredder]

Joe's had a superb run recently... but prime Toney, and Jones for that matter, are a different league altogether....

Someone mentioned on the Naz thread the other day how much faith Warren had in him, because he'd put him in with the worlds best. I'm not going to go on another Calzaghe-bashing mission, but either he, or Warren, or both, didn't have the faith to put him in with Toney or Jones.

Does anyone have the quote where Joe says after winning the WBO (words to the effect of) "This is just a stepping stone to a real world title, I want to fight the best in the world" and goes on to mention Jones, I think. I'm not sure of the actual quote, but I do remember it..

Either way.... Joe's had a good recent run, and deserves his P4P ranking currently - but lets not forget the fact that for the majority of his career he's avoided the best fights out there (and is ducking Pavlik now, IMO). If anyone had asked about Joe vs prime Toney or Jones, prior to the Lacy fight most of us have rubbished his chances.... despite recent results, I still think his best years (athletically) were before Lacy - but he wouldn't go near them then, and we wouldn't have given him much of a shout if he did...

Calzaghe's good, very good and better than I usually give him credit for.... but Toney (and Jones) is a GREAT, and prime for prime, was a different league.

[Poncey]

JC based upon output.

[EddieShredder]

One more thing - Has Joe ever beaten anyone considered to be as good as a prime Toney?

Lacy - Good fighter, but not considered on that level
Kessler - again, very good fighter, genuine best challenger available, but nowhere near a prime Toney
Hopkins - Great boxing brain, subtle skills, no workrate, years past his prime - still managed to nearly grab the win.
Reid - good, but not elite
Eubank - very good, but past his prime, and nowhere near Toney's standard.

If all throughout his career, he's not beaten anyone as good as a prime Toney, how could we expect him to win?

Thats what annoys me about this Jones fight, and makes me want Jones to win so much - because if Calzaghe wins, all we'll hear is how Joe's beaten an all-time great, and his biggest rival from his era blah blah blah.... It'll make me sick, becuase I'll end up hearing from every man and his dog who takes a casual interest in the sport about how Joe's better than Jones etc...

[Poncey]

Put it this way, Toney was the second best fighter in the world for me in his prime. Joe has never faced near that level. Hopkins was the closest.

[EddieShredder]

Put it this way, Toney was the second best fighter in the world for me in his prime. Joe has never faced near that level. Hopkins was the closest.

Bang on

You still think, prime for prime - Joe would beat him on output then?

[Poncey]

Put it this way, Toney was the second best fighter in the world for me in his prime. Joe has never faced near that level. Hopkins was the closest.

Bang on

You still think, prime for prime - Joe would beat him on output then?

Christ yeah. Toney was sublime, but, like Nunn, he didn't step it up at times as much as I'd like. I felt sometimes he held back a little.

[Carbo]

Anybody who saw Toney dismantle Barkley should have serious reservations about picking Calzaghe with any degree of confidence. Of course, Calzaghe is a league or two above the Claw, but there was another fighter with a high workrate picked apart in a savagely clinical exhibition of counter-punching. Further, Calzaghe has never liked counter-punchers, and I take my cues for this fight from the Reid bout in Newcastle. Toney wins by two.

[Captain Hook]

Toney - Calzaghe is a great fighter anmd I'm a huge fan but Toney in his prime was on another level.

[Matt Teague]

Toney is my pick, JC has an excellent workrate but look at the guys he is fighting compaired to Toney.

[overhand_right]

Does anyone have the quote where Joe says after winning the WBO (words to the effect of) "This is just a stepping stone to a real world title, I want to fight the best in the world" and goes on to mention Jones, I think. I'm not sure of the actual quote, but I do remember it..
.

This was in the May 1995 Boxing Monthly article on Joe Calzaghe.

He says he doesnt want to be just a WBO champion, thats too easy. He wants to be a real world champion, like Julian Jackson and Mike McCallum etc.

It took him a further 11 years to live up to that, finally facing Jeff Lacy who at least appeared a threat.

JT eats him up at super-middle.

[overhand_right]

Thats what annoys me about this Jones fight, and makes me want Jones to win so much - because if Calzaghe wins, all we'll hear is how Joe's beaten an all-time great, and his biggest rival from his era blah blah blah.... It'll make me sick, becuase I'll end up hearing from every man and his dog who takes a casual interest in the sport about how Joe's better than Jones etc...

That is a great concern of mine too.

He'll be the first ever fighter to benefit from ultra cautious match making without ever coming a cropper as they all always have done eventually.

Imagine JC and his wbo reign of feces being mentioned in the same breath as Joe Louis's 12 year reign as legit undisputed champ? *shudder*

[observer1]

One more thing - Has Joe ever beaten anyone considered to be as good as a prime Toney?

Lacy - Good fighter, but not considered on that level
Kessler - again, very good fighter, genuine best challenger available, but nowhere near a prime Toney
Hopkins - Great boxing brain, subtle skills, no workrate, years past his prime - still managed to nearly grab the win.
Reid - good, but not elite
Eubank - very good, but past his prime, and nowhere near Toney's standard.

If all throughout his career, he's not beaten anyone as good as a prime Toney, how could we expect him to win?

Thats what annoys me about this Jones fight, and makes me want Jones to win so much - because if Calzaghe wins, all we'll hear is how Joe's beaten an all-time great, and his biggest rival from his era blah blah blah.... It'll make me sick, becuase I'll end up hearing from every man and his dog who takes a casual interest in the sport about how Joe's better than Jones etc...

Agreed. some members here think i have something against Calzaghe, i don't. But i feel he has wasted his talent and years fighting sub-par fighters, over-rated fighters, and passed it legends. beating Jones will mean little to nothing, but no doubt the British will hype it up, and make Boxing in Britain look like a joke in the long run to the outisde world

[stujones]

Toney... comfortably, and so would have Hopkins and Jones.

[Roco]

Toney has too much skill for Calzaghe.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Toney - too good to be simply outworked, and he hit like a mule at 168 when he wasn't weight drained. Calzaghe wasn't slick enough to just pop and move for round after round, and with his aggressive style would have walked onto huge counters from Toney.

If Toney wasn't such a greedy bastard he would have been the goods at 168.