How hard did Ali train?

[KOJOE90]

I've read a few books and articals on Larry Holmes and his time he spent in the Ali camp as his sparring partner in the early to mid 1970's. Holmes always gives the impression that Ali very often did not train that hard for most of his fights. Does anybody have anymore information or insights into this?

I've read many times that Ali always looked poor in sparring but would 'turn it on' for the fight itself. Does anybody know anything about Ali's training rituals at Dear Lake, did he do loads of bag work and running etc?

[saad]

I've always heard that he was lax on roadwork, but sparred a lot.
Did you read the story about Ali sparring with Roy Williams?

[KOJOE90]

Saad, yes I remember reading something once about the Ali-Williams sparring session but I can't remember the details. Was it the time (correct me if I'm wrong) that when they were sparring in Zaire Williams was annoyed with Ali over money/Henry Clark fight cancelation? So they had a few gym wars which were apparently very even, eventualy Ali fired him? I think it was something along those lines I am Right Saad?

I also recall that Roy Williams had a reputation of being very vocal and had a bit of an atitude in his fighting days, is this true? However he was a very very hard man and tough fighter. I've read that Larry Holmes and Earnie Shavers had a lot of respect for his fighting ability, and neither were in a great rush to fight him, although they both defeated him, some reports said Holmes was lucky to get the decsion.

[saad]

Saad, yes I remember reading something once about the Ali-Williams sparring session but I can't remember the details. Was it the time (correct me if I'm wrong) that when they were sparring in Zaire Williams was annoyed with Ali over money/Henry Clark fight cancelation? So they had a few gym wars which were apparently very even, eventualy Ali fired him? I think it was something along those lines I am Right Saad?

I also recall that Roy Williams had a reputation of being very vocal and had a bit of an atitude in his fighting days, is this true? However he was a very very hard man and tough fighter. I've read that Larry Holmes and Earnie Shavers had a lot of respect for his fighting ability, and neither were in a great rush to fight him, although they both defeated him, some reports said Holmes was lucky to get the decsion.

That's exactly right. I read it in Homes book. Williams fight got cancelled because Ali was late getting to the arena. Williams blamed it on Ali, it was supposed to be Roy's biggest payday yet, $5,000. Williams wouldn't quit complaining and demanding his money back at Deer Lake so Ali ordered ten rounds of sparring. Homes said it was a hell of a session, with Ali trying unsuccessfully to rope-a-dope and each guy giving as good as he got. Williams was cussing at Ali the whole time. Williams was still calling Ali a pussy afterwards, so Ali called for another 10 rounds the next day. Williams came out and they repeated the intense session. Ali paid the $5,000 and fired him.

Holmes says his fight with Roy Williams was really the beginning of his career as a legitimate heavyweight. He took the fight on 8 days notice, broke his thumb early in the fight and got rocked right at the end of the final round, but he came away with the decision by using his jab and movement.

The best story Holmes had about Williams was when they were both working as sparring partners at Deer Lake. Williams had gotten a fight and Holmes went and sat ringside to cheer him on. Roy turned to him in the middle of the fight and shouted "Shut the f*** up!"

[gensu3k1]

In his later years, reportedly, he trained primarily by letting people beat him up on the ropes. But he seemed to always look fabulous in training pre-'67.

[KOJOE90]

I recall reading years ago that Ali sparred with a young Jeff Simms, I seem to recall that Simms cut and/or floored Ali badly. Can anybody else remember this?

[KOJOE90]

Interesting stuff about Roy Williams.

I saw the Roy Williams--Larry Holmes fight at the Capitol Centre in Landover, Maryland.

It was on the undercard of the Jimmy Young--Ali fight.

I thought Williams was the better fighter. He was stronger than Holmes---hit much harder than the Holmes of that time.

I would have given the decision to Williams---and also predicted a better future for Williams than for Holmes.

I talked to Williams after the Young-Ali fight was over.
He was sitting on a folding chair outside the dressing rooms.
He was a huge guy.

He said Young did very well, and that he thought Young won.

A very short older white guy (probably his manager or a trainer) was screaming at Williams about what he "should have done" against Holmes.
Williams sat there passively as the midget yelled at him, with a hurt look in his eyes.
I interrupted and said I thought Williams deserved the decision.
Williams commented to me that he thought Holmes was a good fighter.
Williams seemed very cowed, quiet, almost afraid to speak up.

I also heard from people from Philly that Williams gave Jimmy Young a hard time in sparring at Frazier's gym in Philly before Young left for the Ali fight.

Some time after that I heard from Philly people that Williams killed another man (shot him, I think they said) in a jealous situation involving a female---as was put away for many years.

That didn't make sense to me.
As big as he was---all he had to do was give the guy a push.

Interesting stuff, thanks.

[john garfield]

When I saw this thread, it instantly carried me back to the 5th St. Gym in Miami, when I used to train there.

An almost gangly, non-stop talking Cassius Clay was working out there too. I remember thinking: Olympic medal or not, this kid has no future at all; he slaps when he punches and he doesn't look big enough boned to grow into a legitimate heavyweight. And compared to Cleveland Williams who was training there at the same time, they'd have arrested you for murder for even thinking of matching the two up at the time.

Williams looked like a super hero from one of Stan Lee's comic strips and Clay looked like a boy in comparison. Also, Clay was being pushed around easily in sparring with Mike Dejohn. Ironic that latter on, Ali should blitz both guys.

Willie Pastrano and Clay were devils in the gym. They laughed and laughed and slapped the heavy bags and had Angelo at the end of his patience.

Early on, no savvy fight guy in the gym would have predictated what Clay accomplished.

john garfield