George Foreman: Was Ali Ducking a Rematch?

[HomicideHenry]

"Tell him to stop fighting Chuck Wepner! I knocked him out in three rounds, knocked Joe Frazier out in two rounds, knocked out Ken Norton in two rounds, Jerry Quarry never had enough heart to fight me, Ron Lyle was still just a kid, I am the best around, theres no way he can go around fighting these guys and say he's the best in the world when George Foreman is still alive!"

Gerge Foreman, following the five exhibitions he done against Terry Daniels, Charlie Polite, Jerry Judge, Boone Kirkman and Alonzo Johnson, 4/26/1975...


The question I still cannot fathom in my mind is why Foreman never got a title shot return against Muhammad Ali. Yes he was inactive for all of 1975, but up until 1977 he was knocking out Ron Lyle, Scott LeDoux, Joe Frazier, the undefeated Dino Dennis and Pedro Agosto!

I know this has been done to death here, but I still can't picture it, there just isnt no excuse big enough, for why Ali never rematched George Foreman. He could have fought Foreman when he instead chose to face off against Coopman and Dunne. There's just no excuse.

[Quixall]

"Tell him to stop fighting Chuck Wepner! I knocked him out in three rounds, knocked Joe Frazier out in two rounds, knocked out Ken Norton in two rounds, Jerry Quarry never had enough heart to fight me, Ron Lyle was still just a kid, I am the best around, theres no way he can go around fighting these guys and say he's the best in the world when George Foreman is still alive!"

Gerge Foreman, following the five exhibitions he done against Terry Daniels, Charlie Polite, Jerry Judge, Boone Kirkman and Alonzo Johnson, 4/26/1975...


The question I still cannot fathom in my mind is why Foreman never got a title shot return against Muhammad Ali. Yes he was inactive for all of 1975, but up until 1977 he was knocking out Ron Lyle, Scott LeDoux, Joe Frazier, the undefeated Dino Dennis and Pedro Agosto!

I know this has been done to death here, but I still can't picture it, there just isnt no excuse big enough, for why Ali never rematched George Foreman. He could have fought Foreman when he instead chose to face off against Coopman and Dunne. There's just no excuse.

I think the simple answer is that he knew he would lose to Formen in a re-match and did'nt want to undermine the legacy and reputation that he got from that fight alone...

I still can't beleive how Foreman lost the first fight. People talk about "rope a dope", but the only dope that night was Foreman, because Ali was there for the taking IMO

[Robinson]

Why face Foreman when you can have a Dunn, Wepner, etc

[Collins2000]

Here we go. The Revisionists are out again.

[Ambling Alp]

I thought Homocidehenry was done with starting Anti-Ali posts. This isn't even the first time he has brought this subject up.
What happened is pretty simple.
Foreman did not fight at all in 1975. Therefore by 1976, he wasn't the #1 contender. Ali did defend the title the #1 contender and the #2 contender in 1976.
In early 1977, Foreman lost to Jimmy Young. End of story.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Interesting topic I like delving into.

Will submit my 0.02c when time permits

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Gerge Foreman, following the five exhibitions he done against Terry Daniels, Charlie Polite, Jerry Judge, Boone Kirkman and Alonzo Johnson, 4/26/1975...

- Yeah, Cosell and Ali were both there ragging on Big George. It had a WWE overtone to it it was so outrageous with George scrapping with a couple of guys he KOed after words exchanged in between dancing and prancing around.

Ferdie Pacheco mentions on one of the 5 dozen books on Ali out there that Ali took such bad punishment that fight that the team ruled out the rematch in spite of it being the biggest money fight of all time. Also Ali couldn't stand George and rather enjoyed rubbing his nose in it. Don King was minting money on Ali's stiff of the month tour, and the WBA/WBC were happy to be rid of the surly monster who was ruining the best heavies from his brutal KOs. With Ali the fights were gonna go deep with some good promotional footage before and after between Ali and Cosell.

Ducking a powerful word, but appropriate here because George campaigned so hard for the rematch before and after his fights and was front cover on Sports Illustrated calling Ali out, unprecedented publicity for the loser of a title fight and indicative of what the media and public wanted.

[Collins2000]

Gerge Foreman, following the five exhibitions he done against Terry Daniels, Charlie Polite, Jerry Judge, Boone Kirkman and Alonzo Johnson, 4/26/1975...

- Yeah, Cosell and Ali were both there ragging on Big George. It had a WWE overtone to it it was so outrageous with George scrapping with a couple of guys he KOed after words exchanged in between dancing and prancing around.

Ferdie Pacheco mentions on one of the 5 dozen books on Ali out there that Ali took such bad punishment that fight that the team ruled out the rematch in spite of it being the biggest money fight of all time. Also Ali couldn't stand George and rather enjoyed rubbing his nose in it. Don King was minting money on Ali's stiff of the month tour, and the WBA/WBC were happy to be rid of the surly monster who was ruining the best heavies from his brutal KOs. With Ali the fights were gonna go deep with some good promotional footage before and after between Ali and Cosell.

Ducking a powerful word, but appropriate here because George campaigned so hard for the rematch before and after his fights and was front cover on Sports Illustrated calling Ali out, unprecedented publicity for the loser of a title fight and indicative of what the media and public wanted.

You missed the Jimmy Young fight then?

[Collins2000]

I thought Homocidehenry was done with starting Anti-Ali posts. This isn't even the first time he has brought this subject up.
What happened is pretty simple.
Foreman did not fight at all in 1975. Therefore by 1976, he wasn't the #1 contender. Ali did defend the title the #1 contender and the #2 contender in 1976.
In early 1977, Foreman lost to Jimmy Young. End of story.

I like Rupert better when he's talking about his fantasies...

[HomicideHenry]

I thought Homocidehenry was done with starting Anti-Ali posts. This isn't even the first time he has brought this subject up.
What happened is pretty simple.
Foreman did not fight at all in 1975. Therefore by 1976, he wasn't the #1 contender. Ali did defend the title the #1 contender and the #2 contender in 1976.
In early 1977, Foreman lost to Jimmy Young. End of story.

After Foreman destroyed Lyle and Frazier, Ali kept making excuses. His continuing argument, which there wasn't even a basis for it, was "One more fight, and I'll fight him."

Don't also forget, when Foreman gatecrashed a press conference once, Ali said "Two more fights" when Foreman asked him when he was going to get a rematch. The date assigned for this fight was supposedly in November of 1976, then Ali out of the blue said he was retiring. Foreman then starts in negotiations to line up a few fights, and then all of a sudden Ali said he never was retiring and instead of fighting Foreman, he chose Alfredo Evangelista, in what was considered the worst heavyweight title fight of all time.

Foreman, in desperation, then fought Jimmy Young in a title eliminator, and lost. Not long after that Jimmy Young would 'lose' a controversial decision to Muhammad Ali who never took Young seriously, figuring him for another Evangelista. By 1977 the top contenders were guys like Mike Schutte, Bobick and of course Evangelista. Ali had no intentions of fighting anyone difficult unless he absoloutely had to.

How many former champions can you name who either got returns off the bat, or returns after defeating at least one top contender? I can throw many names from Dempsey to even Muhammad Ali himself getting returns either off the bat or within reason. Foreman defeated two of the top four contenders in 1976 in Frazier and Lyle, but was passed over.

To say Foreman didnt pay his dues, is bullshit. Who the hell cares whether he could or couldnt win a rematch with Ali, thats not the point. The argument here is, what more could Foreman have done, considering what he did in 1976 alone? He was a former champion, defeated two of the top four contenders in '76, was voted FIGHTER OF THE YEAR, in the FIGHT OF THE YEAR, and the 5th round in Lyle-Foreman was also voted ROUND OF THE YEAR as well. After demolishing Frazier, most magazine titles were like this (International Boxing issue): "BIG GEORGE FOREMAN, THE MAIN MAN IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT PICTURE AGAIN."

And dont use the excuse Foreman didnt want a rematch either with Ali, or that he squandered his own chances, because virtually off the bat Foreman tried like hell, even appearing in SPORTS ILLUSTRATED in 1975 saying he wanted Ali again and was planning his comeback in a big way. Hell he even said on November 8th, 1974 to the St. Petersburg Times he wanted to fight Ali again. Ali just didnt want none of it. BTW, the WBC had ordered that Ali had to fight the #1 contender George Foreman, following the Norton fight (September 28th, 1976) within 90 days. This was stated in August 20th, 1976.

Also:

BOXING NEWS November 20th, 1976 (cover) "ALI AGREES TO FOREMAN REMATCH"

BOXING NEWS November 27th, 1976 (cover) "ALI RETIRES".

That dont tell you anything, then I dont know what will.

[HomicideHenry]

I thought Homocidehenry was done with starting Anti-Ali posts. This isn't even the first time he has brought this subject up.
What happened is pretty simple.
Foreman did not fight at all in 1975. Therefore by 1976, he wasn't the #1 contender. Ali did defend the title the #1 contender and the #2 contender in 1976.
In early 1977, Foreman lost to Jimmy Young. End of story.

I like Rupert better when he's talking about his fantasies...

Why thank you Collins btw read my post!

[ringsider]

Ali would have beaten his ass again. Ali was just a quicker better fighter. He was the boxing wizard. Anytime you hit a guy with right hand leads like Ali hit Foreman, you know who is the better fighter. The same would have happened in a remath. Ali knew Foreman could not hurt him, because Foreman could not hit Ali flush.

[HomicideHenry]

Thats not the point though Ringsider. Who cares who would have won, Ali had no excuse big enough, for not fighting Foreman again.

[HomicideHenry]

And, Alp, I'm not bashing Ali. I'm just merely looking at facts. It more than appears to me that Ali "retired" so he could get out of his 90 day clause to face Foreman again. IMO, Ali probably could have beaten Foreman again, had they rematched, but considering how hard it was getting for Ali to get by guys like Frazier and Norton again, a man can understand side stepping someone as murderous as Foreman, since George easily dispatched of Frazier and Lyle, who was ahead on cards when he fought Ali until he was stopped in the 11th.

Not to put more salt into the wounds here, but a similar thing happened in 1977 as well with Ali. He was signed on to face the winner of Norton-Bobick, but imo the wrong man won, and then Ali said he'd fight the winner of Norton-Young, and again, the wrong man managed to win. Ali then side stepped that, fighting the rather inexperienced Leon Spinks, and of course, amazingly, lost to the kid with only seven pro bouts.

[Collins2000]

I thought Homocidehenry was done with starting Anti-Ali posts. This isn't even the first time he has brought this subject up.
What happened is pretty simple.
Foreman did not fight at all in 1975. Therefore by 1976, he wasn't the #1 contender. Ali did defend the title the #1 contender and the #2 contender in 1976.
In early 1977, Foreman lost to Jimmy Young. End of story.

I like Rupert better when he's talking about his fantasies...

Why thank you Collins btw read my post!

I did, mate. It was well, amusing, shall we say. All piss and wind, as usual.



PS Have you started on that video yet? Stacy aint gonna let you into the TPS until you make that video.

[HomicideHenry]

Usually I do talk with piss and vinegar, this time I did it with more evidence.

Lol, funny you should say that Collins, the other day I was trying to arrange for me to film a video, and I was going to crush an apple in one hand like I said I'd do (just for you since you hound me on it, that and breaking pliers), but shit came up. I'll get it though. I am not gonna have much of a choice soon, either I've gotta make it or I'm gonna be shit out of luck completely. I cant afford the internet.

[Collins2000]

Usually I do talk with piss and vinegar, this time I did it with more evidence.

Lol, funny you should say that Collins, the other day I was trying to arrange for me to film a video, and I was going to crush an apple in one hand like I said I'd do (just for you since you hound me on it, that and breaking pliers), but shit came up. I'll get it though. I am not gonna have much of a choice soon, either I've gotta make it or I'm gonna be shit out of luck completely. I cant afford the internet.

Ah, Rupert, you never fail to amuse me, mate.

Do you remember that time you were calling out in the other forum for someone to get you a fight? You told us all about what a tough fellow you were and even that story about how you got your nickname. You were willing to travel anywhere and fight anyone between 140 and 175 now you had your 'federal licence'.

Then that fellow appeared, as if by magic, looking for someone to appear on a show in your home town. A fighter had dropped out a week before the show and they were looking for a replacement around 160 pounds.

We all thought "Wow, Rupert's dreams have come true!". Several people mentioned you were looking for a fight and the fellow kept asking and said he'd PM'd you when someone said you had a licence and wanted to fight.

But there was no reply from you.

A moderator said the last time you'd logged in was 10 minutes after the dude posted looking for a fighter. Then nothing for 2 weeks.

Finally the show came and went without a peep from you.

A couple of days later, who should re-appear but HomicideHenry.

I cracked up with your "Oh, Damn, I lost my internet connection for 2 weeks." "Man, I would have taken that fight in a heartbeat!" stories.

Some cruel posters suggested you'd lost your nerve when you saw that original post. I was never one of that gang, Rupert. I know the man you really are. A bloke who can crush an apple and destroy a pair of pliers with one hand that's who!

[HomicideHenry]

Now, while I did fail to get ahold of armageto for the Chris Fitzpatrick fight, which would have been in Akron, Ohio I believe and at 175, he tried to get me two other fights as well, which, I'm glad to say wasnt because I disappeared inconveintly, but because Rayshawn Meyers (a cruiserweight) actually backed out from the negotiations that armageto was offering and actually took a tougher fight than I would have been. The other was against Will Rolinsky, but the fight was two-three days away when I offered, and armageto said it was impossible for me to get up to New York, get the tests done and be licensed to fight and then get into the ring with Rolinsky.

armageto is a good guy. I just think sometimes, because of the Fitzpatrick fight never happening, that he went out on a limb for me when no one else would, and I wasnt able to get back with him, he lost faith in me. I dont blame him, though.

[Collins2000]

Now, while I did fail to get ahold of armageto for the Chris Fitzpatrick fight, which would have been in Akron, Ohio I believe and at 175, he tried to get me two other fights as well, which, I'm glad to say wasnt because I disappeared inconveintly, but because Rayshawn Meyers (a cruiserweight) actually backed out from the negotiations that armageto was offering and actually took a tougher fight than I would have been. The other was against Will Rolinsky, but the fight was two-three days away when I offered, and armageto said it was impossible for me to get up to New York, get the tests done and be licensed to fight and then get into the ring with Rolinsky.

armageto is a good guy. I just think sometimes, because of the Fitzpatrick fight never happening, that he went out on a limb for me when no one else would, and I wasnt able to get back with him, he lost faith in me. I dont blame him, though.

You ever show him the apple trick?

Seriously, though. If you want to get into that TPS thing then you have to make a video. If you aren't in a wheelchair (are you?) you should be able to destroy Zelenoff, that blowhard Kronkpride (who I am sure if gonna pull out close to his first fight) and little gay Striggy on the same night.

Even in a wheelchair (as long as your arms still work) I reckon you'd be favourite over Zelenoff and no worse than evens against Kronkpride.

[HomicideHenry]

Nah I'm not wheel chair bound.

As far as the TPS is concerned, I'd like to start out in it, but soon afterward I would like to face guys not associated with it. I dont want to be stuck in a particular mold and be typecasted. I know thats a phrase used in Hollywood, but, I think if someone stays too long on a certain level, people typecast them as 'tomato cans', 'club fighters', 'journeymen', etc

As far as me beating those guys in the TPS....meh, ionos, I've always been a believer of never under-estimating someone, shit can happen any time....I think Marciano said it best: "I can only try to win." As for Messer, if he pulls out (again), imo, he'll never have a place at TPS again, and will be considered even far more a coward than Chuckles ever was.

[Robinson]

I always thought Foreman vs the Toronto 5 was a pretty impressive feat.

The commentating was tacky. Not a Cossel fan and Ali was in one of
his moods.

[ringsider]

Thats not the point though Ringsider. Who cares who would have won, Ali had no excuse big enough, for not fighting Foreman again.

Oh BS.....Ali beat him and KO'd him decisively in their first meeting. What more did he need to do or prove?

[HomicideHenry]

So, whats his excuse for facing Norton and Frazier three times, or facing Bugner twice, or Cooper twice, or Patterson twice, or Liston twice, when he either won every time out against them, or split wins with them?

[Flump]

So, whats his excuse for facing Norton and Frazier three times, or facing Bugner twice, or Cooper twice, or Patterson twice, or Liston twice, when he either won every time out against them, or split wins with them?

You could argue that apart from Bugner or Chuvalo there was something still to prove against the others, Frazier and Norton beat him, Cooper floored him and was only stopped on cuts, Patterson's back was put out, Liston quit with an apparent shoulder injury, whereas Foreman was beaten convincingly and knocked out.

[belowthebelt]

truth is in boxing you dont always get what you deserve.

big george wouldnt of won a 2nd fight anyway in my oppinion anyway but you could say he earned the shot at it