Since some of us were talking about the best fighters from Kid Gavilan's era, who do you think was the 2nd best fighter in that era after Gavilan? Who do you think would've been the welterweight champ from '51 to '54 if Gavilan wasn't around?
I figure it was most likely one of these three guys here. I'm not quite as impressed with Bratton as a lot of others were, I think Graham and Turner were probably both better than him. So for me it would be either Graham or Turner, and I'm not quite sure who to pick there. Turner had a fairly short prime, and didn't have as much experience in that time as Graham. Graham had a long career and great numbers, but his record was somewhat padded. Still, right now I think I'd go with Graham to outbox and outsmart Turner if they had fought.
Anyone else have opinions on this?
Johnny Bratton vs. Gil Turner vs. Billy Graham??
Graham would take Turner, and I don't under estimate Turner. But with that charge forward machine gun style of his, and Graham's chin and smarts, Billy would outpoint him.
Turner vs. Bratton? It would all depend on which Bratton would show up. I think Bratton at his best might would take Turner because Turner was easy to hit and Bratton could throw bombs. I don't know that Bratton would decision him though. If Turner could stay active at that pace he usually set it would mean that my Honey Boy would be getting hit and the fragile jaw and hands could give out.
plus..doesn't Basilio belong in the mix here somewhere?
Turner vs. Bratton? It would all depend on which Bratton would show up. I think Bratton at his best might would take Turner because Turner was easy to hit and Bratton could throw bombs. I don't know that Bratton would decision him though. If Turner could stay active at that pace he usually set it would mean that my Honey Boy would be getting hit and the fragile jaw and hands could give out.
plus..doesn't Basilio belong in the mix here somewhere?
I saw both Basilio Graham fights on live tv. i thought Basilio deserved the decision he got over Graham in their first fight and was impressed by how much he had improved over previous ones. I thought Graham deserved the decision in their rematch, which was called a draw.
In a post career interview about the guys he fought, Basilio said "Gavilian was the quickest,Graham the smartest and Robinson the hardest puncher."
Yeah, I'm off on my time table, as Basilio did come into his own a little later, though he did beat Turner in 1955...but I think Turner was past his peak by then. I have a hard time keeping trackof all these years that buzz around in my head.
In a post career interview about the guys he fought, Basilio said "Gavilian was the quickest,Graham the smartest and Robinson the hardest puncher."
Yeah, I'm off on my time table, as Basilio did come into his own a little later, though he did beat Turner in 1955...but I think Turner was past his peak by then. I have a hard time keeping trackof all these years that buzz around in my head.
Graham and Basilio also fought once before that, and Graham won a decision which I heard was controversial.Jaclem wrote:I saw both Basilio Graham fights on live tv. i thought Basilio deserved the decision he got over Graham in their first fight and was impressed by how much he had improved over previous ones. I thought Graham deserved the decision in their rematch, which was called a draw.
In a post career interview about the guys he fought, Basilio said "Gavilian was the quickest,Graham the smartest and Robinson the hardest puncher."
Yeah, I'm off on my time table, as Basilio did come into his own a little later, though he did beat Turner in 1955...but I think Turner was past his peak by then. I have a hard time keeping trackof all these years that buzz around in my head.
Turner was of course younger than Basilio when they fought, but Turner had been considered a has-been for quite some time. Turner had had too many back-to-back wars early in his career. After losing to Gavilan, Turner went up to middlweight and had a string of wars against guys that were probably too big for him, and that took a lot out of him.
right terap...Basilio did say Williams was the hardest puncher he faced. It was Robinson who he said was the hardest punching MIDDLEWEIGHT he fought.
Williams was never able to be as good when he went up to welter as he was as a lightweight. Guess by that time he was slipping...plus the Costner fight took a lot out of him.
Williams was never able to be as good when he went up to welter as he was as a lightweight. Guess by that time he was slipping...plus the Costner fight took a lot out of him.
Regarding Bratton/Turner/Graham: They shared only two common opponents....other than Kid Gavilan....the journeyman Sammy Mastrean, who was a knockout
victim of all three, and slick boxing Rocky Castellani.
Castellani scored two decisions over Johnny Bratton, beat Gil Turner over
10-rounds and fought a draw with Billy Graham.
If common opponents are a measurement....then a slight nod toward
Billy Graham as the best in the division.
victim of all three, and slick boxing Rocky Castellani.
Castellani scored two decisions over Johnny Bratton, beat Gil Turner over
10-rounds and fought a draw with Billy Graham.
If common opponents are a measurement....then a slight nod toward
Billy Graham as the best in the division.
I think Williams' problem was basically the same as Gavilan's when he tried to go up to 160, which is that he was too small. Gavy and Williams would usually only weigh about a pound or two over their division's limit in non-title fights. (When Williams fought Gavilan the first time, Ike was 136 to Gavy's 141.) By the time each had grown into the higher weight class enough, they were both past their primes.Jaclem wrote:right terap...Basilio did say Williams was the hardest puncher he faced. It was Robinson who he said was the hardest punching MIDDLEWEIGHT he fought.
Williams was never able to be as good when he went up to welter as he was as a lightweight. Guess by that time he was slipping...plus the Costner fight took a lot out of him.