Lennox Lewis... All Time Rating.

Scrap · Post by **Scrap** » 27 Dec 2007, 17:04

When I think of Sonny Liston I always think of Marty Marshall

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 27 Dec 2007, 17:05

fozzy wrote:I would always put Lennox and Holyfield in my top 5.

Seing Holyfield as a boxing legand in my eyes!!

This seems a big rich. Who do you take out of the top 5 then from Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Johnson, and Larry Holmes?

Scrap · Post by **Scrap** » 27 Dec 2007, 17:13

I think fighters pre war deserve respect, But it ends with the Heavys. Lewis always struggled with speed in distance,beside Ali and Holmes I cant see anybody else beating him. Believe me Im not a fan its how I see it

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 27 Dec 2007, 18:48

Scrap wrote:I think fighters pre war deserve respect, But it ends with the Heavys. Lewis always struggled with speed in distance,beside Ali and Holmes I cant see anybody else beating him. Believe me Im not a fan its how I see it

Ever saw Joe Louis' combination punching in action?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kzpECJjefI

Skip the beginning -- the fight starts at about 6:30. At 6:50 and 7:10 Louis throws the first fast and precise combos. And then see what he does around 8:05.

Scrap · Post by **Scrap** » 27 Dec 2007, 19:20

Sorry whats your point, you rate Lewis the same level as Baer. Louis was a great fighter but open to the right over the top. Lewis best shot. You never got distance of Lewis jab he got his.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 27 Dec 2007, 20:48

I think Lewis is probably No 1 if you were to put them all into a ring with each other at their best with their exact physical attributes etc..

But in the context of their time he probably ranks 3 for me, behind Ali and Louis, possibly behind Marciano too....

I think above Holmes because the Easton Assasin was unlucky for his peak to fall in an absolutely shite period of Heavyweight boxing and between the Golden and Silver ages of Heavyweight boxing...

But I think Lennox was the first genuine mammoth Heavyweight to retain some natural athleticism/fluidity. He looked cumbersome when off-form or indeed in his last fight against Vitali but on his day he was pretty slick for a big guy.

Tykemania · Post by **Tykemania** » 28 Dec 2007, 05:58

billy bessey wrote:i dunno how people can say lewis was chinny cos he got stopped by 2 second class heavyweights as you call them. his mind obviously wasnt fully on the job as it was in the rematches. that he won comfortably and heavyeight unlike most other weights when a B or even C class fighter lands a decent punch. which the punches that knocked lewis out certainly were they become a class fighters for that split second and its game over take our enry in world class terms he was no more than average but when he landed that punch on ali which dropped him he suddenly bacame A class for that split second just as sonny banks would have when he dropped ali too although ali got back up to win these fights would he have if they were landed by the size of todays heavyweights(i know some of his opponents were as big as todays) but most werent and surely todays heavyweights with the training methods and supplements available can hit harder faster and more frequently on the whole and as for skill lewis's jab must be up there with the very best heavyweights of all time and he was very skillfull for a heavyweight and dominated throughout most of his fights i wouldnt nesecerily say he would beat ali but to have him outside the 10 is ludicrous in my eyes

I don't think Lewis was chinny - it is simply a fact of life that defeats by knockout are exponentially more likely at the higher weights. However, there is a question mark hanging over a guy who, in the prime of his career, managed to get dumped twice by guys he should rightly have boxed the ears off. Yeah, the first time you could argue it was just one of those things with poor preparation, low motivation and the like - but hell, why would he let it happen again? And lets be brutal here - McCall was a pretty damn reasonable fighter, whereas Rock sure as hell was not.

On their best days, I'd place Lewis third behind Ali and Louis, with Holmes and Foreman making up the five. Taking an overview of their prime years (ie discarding the latter day injustices perpetrated to the legacies of Ali, Holmes and Louis) I'd say he scores relatively lowly, behind Louis, Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Holmes and possibly a couple others.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2007, 06:49

Marciano, whilst undoubtedly a very hard and determined fighter with an almost inhuman ability to absorb punishment, also never had to face a big talented man in his prime like Lewis. He was given murders by older smaller men, (admitedly very skilfull) fighters in Charles and Walcott.

He was however the predominant fighter of his era, and deserves credit for that, but it was a weak field post-Louis, and this must also be taken into account.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Dec 2007, 08:22

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Marciano, whilst undoubtedly a very hard and determined fighter with an almost inhuman ability to absorb punishment, also never had to face a big talented man in his prime like Lewis. He was given murders by older smaller men, (admitedly very skilfull) fighters in Charles and Walcott.

He was however the predominant fighter of his era, and deserves credit for that, but it was a weak field post-Louis, and this must also be taken into account.

Yeah, I think Marciano opposition is why he is never ranked inside the top 3.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2007, 08:31

If Marciano's career had started 5 years ealier and he got to face a prime Louis, things might have been very different. Louis himself said that he would have hated to have Faced Marciano in his prime, as he hated being crowded by fighters.

Tykemania · Post by **Tykemania** » 28 Dec 2007, 08:56

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Marciano, whilst undoubtedly a very hard and determined fighter with an almost inhuman ability to absorb punishment, also never had to face a big talented man in his prime like Lewis. He was given murders by older smaller men, (admitedly very skilfull) fighters in Charles and Walcott.

He was however the predominant fighter of his era, and deserves credit for that, but it was a weak field post-Louis, and this must also be taken into account.

Possibly true, but there is a difference between Wladimir Klitschko being the best of a bad bunch now and Marciano being the best of a bad bunch then. Firstly, it wasn't THAT bad. Secondly, he beat plenty of good fighters on his way up. Thirdly - and this is something that I find it hard to get past - he had the class to retire unbeaten and in his prime.

Marciano would never make it as a heavyweight now - his pressure based style would be mincemeat against some of the 260lb behemoths - but he was a great champion in his own era.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2007, 10:23

I don't agree that retiring at the top makes you any greater a champion. Smart move? Yes. A sign of greatness? No.

Who knows what might have happened had the Rock not retired?

Often fighters past their prime produce one last great performance which adds to their legacy. Lennox Lewis' win over Vitaly K springs to mind.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2007, 10:35

Scrap wrote:Sorry whats your point, you rate Lewis the same level as Baer. Louis was a great fighter but open to the right over the top. Lewis best shot. You never got distance of Lewis jab he got his.

You said Lewis was vulnerable to speed from the distance. Speed from the distance was exactly one of Louis' main strenghts.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2007, 10:42

Yes, but Louis was pretty tall with a long reach in his own era.

He would have to get closer to Lewis to be effective, although it's quite possible he could have used to his jab to good effect, given that Mercer was able to match and even outjab him in their fight.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 28 Dec 2007, 11:05

At their respective bests, over 15 rounds, Lewis not only makes the top ten, he likely belongs in the top five. I'd put Joe Louis, Ali, Dempsey, and maybe Tunney ahead of Lewis. On a given night one or two others might pull off a win, because they were great fighters, but in a series of bouts I have to rate Lewis near the top.

Cap

Scrap · Post by **Scrap** » 28 Dec 2007, 11:17

On a good day where Lewis was after the jab was hard to judge Louis being a counter puncher and getting his distance from the other guys work would struggle as he did with smart fighters. Ali and Holmes had better jabs and smarts, I feel with those 2 he would struggle with there faster movement and feet. Joe was a shuffler and if the guy stood there having it the guy was in trouble, mobile fightres he struggled with big guys with slow feet were made for Joe. Big fighters with mobility and fast hands werent

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2007, 11:23

Terry D wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Sorry to say this, but Tyson was rather hard done by in the Douglas fight. Douglas was completely and utterly out of it, and barely made it up before the count. The count was definetly slow and had it been even 1 second quicker, NO WAY would Douglas have made it up.

Tyson's life was already in freefall by that point, he was out of control, unhappy and unravelling. The truth was, given his history, he always would have come apart at some point. Even if Cus stayed alive, the seeds of foment were there, and he and Cus would have parted company at some stage.

Tyson was enormously physically gifted, with incredible speed and agility, as well as almost peerless power, and an incredible ferocity, matched by his ability to take punishment. Tyson was a very hard man to hurt, and it was easier to frustrate him than punish him.

Even past his best, Tyson was still a formidable fighter, but by the time he got to Lewis, he had no chance.

I think a prime Tyson against a Prime Lewis would have been one hell of a fight, but their primes were almost a decade apart, Tyson was at his best around the age of 22, and Lewis about 32-36.

I think Tyson had he got Lewis in his pomp, when Lewis was still green, would have made mincemeat of him, because Lewis had flaws that Tyson would definetly have exposed.

Having said that, Tyson rates lower than Lewis on my list, as his peak was too brief, and he never won a rematch.
I disagree. All Douglas could do was pay mind to the count that was presented. He did this and got up at the right moment so any error went out of his hand. If Tyson has turned the fight so how did Mike end-up not taking advantage?

Douglas went down and got up to slap the living piss out of Tyson. Mike went down, then got up to hide behind his promoter who tried to politrick the title back to Tyson.

Lots of fighters are physically gifted but boxing is as much a mental sport and Tyson would be hammered by guys like Lewis, Holyfield, Foreman, Frazier, Louis, Liston (who would scare the shit out of Tyson) and especially Holmes, when Holmes was in his pomp.

Even Tyson's winning rematch, Ruddock, showed his as a fighter incapable of learning from the first bout.

Cus or no Cus he was always going to struggle and fell at the hurdle of faded and flawed fighters. Imagine him going into the Bowe-Holyfield-Lewis age? He'd have been hammered even more thoroughly.

The round ended not long after the knockdown otherwise Douglas would never have finished the fight.. Douglas could barely even see straight as he hauled himself off the canvas with drool hanging out of his mouth. It wasn't Douglas' fault the count was slow, but neither was he in any state to get up sooner. I used to share your point of view until I rewatched the fight a few months back Terry. Douglas was utterly fecked.

Tyson was already a lesser fighter by the time of the Douglas fight, his peak came and went within a few years, it was the nature of his psyche to implode and reject what made him great for that brief period.

Interesting you mention Liston, I've wondered about this fight myself. My dad, who lived through the Louis and Liston eras, and is a big boxing fan, with a pretty good instinctive take, said he thought Tyson would have shocked Liston, himself a bully, with this speed, power and accuracy.

Not saying I agree per se.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 28 Dec 2007, 11:23

Cap wrote:At their respective bests, over 15 rounds, Lewis not only makes the top ten, he likely belongs in the top five. I'd put Joe Louis, Ali, Dempsey, and maybe Tunney ahead of Lewis. On a given night one or two others might pull off a win, because they were great fighters, but in a series of bouts I have to rate Lewis near the top.

Cap

Just can't see the big deal about Tunney. Yes, he brought science to the sport but he fought an overage Dempsey twice, one of which was dubious because time stood still. Not really any other credible opponents are on his records, maybe Greb and Carpentier.

I go back to my previous post that I just can't see how you can put Johnson or Tunney for that matter so highly above Foreman and Frazier, even Holyfield and Lewis.

I find it annoying that US boxing journalists look at historical fighters as unbeatable, when some of them were just champions of that division.

Maybe I need to be older. I dunno.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Dec 2007, 11:25

Even though Tyson was rushed pretty quickly - I often wonder would Tyson have dethroned the non Holmes champion on his pro debut.... He was that good.

Dancing Destroyer · Post by **Dancing Destroyer** » 28 Dec 2007, 11:53

I think it depends on what criteria you are judging this on.

Would Lennox have beaten Ali? In my opinion, yes. He would have been far too big and strong for Ali. Did Lennox dominate his division to the same degree as Ali? Probably more so. Were there any real challengers or top-class heavyweights in Lennox's era. Possibily not, but there definitely was in Ali's era.

My point is that its very hard to give a definitive answer to this question when there are so many factors to be considered.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Dec 2007, 12:32

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Cap wrote:At their respective bests, over 15 rounds, Lewis not only makes the top ten, he likely belongs in the top five. I'd put Joe Louis, Ali, Dempsey, and maybe Tunney ahead of Lewis. On a given night one or two others might pull off a win, because they were great fighters, but in a series of bouts I have to rate Lewis near the top.

Cap
Just can't see the big deal about Tunney. Yes, he brought science to the sport but he fought an overage Dempsey twice, one of which was dubious because time stood still. Not really any other credible opponents are on his records, maybe Greb and Carpentier.

I go back to my previous post that I just can't see how you can put Johnson or Tunney for that matter so highly above Foreman and Frazier, even Holyfield and Lewis.

I find it annoying that US boxing journalists look at historical fighters as unbeatable, when some of them were just champions of that division.

Maybe I need to be older. I dunno.

The mannassa mauler is overated by some, but he was no average fighter.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 28 Dec 2007, 12:47

pundit wrote:#7 for me.

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Johnson
4 Holmes
5 Foreman

6 Liston
7 Lewis
8 Langford
9 Frazier
10 Tunney

11 Marciano
12 Dempsey
13 Tyson
14 Charles
15 Wills

16 Jeffries
17 Holyfield
18 Corbett
19 Schmeling
20 Walcott

Top 4 is the same as mine

After that I change my mind from list to list.

The only thing that jumps out at me is that Holyfield should be above Tyson but that's for another day...

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 28 Dec 2007, 14:17

When people jusge Lewis' all time standing in the HW mix, I find a lot of people place Lewis way down the list because they didn't like his style of boxing, or they just didn't like the man himself.

However, Lewis is right up there for me, & I'm not a big fan, but have grown to be more of a fan of Lewis' in recent years. I wanted Tyson to beat him when they fought, but knew it wouldn't happen, because one fighter was near his peak, while the other was years away from his!

Head-to-head, Lewis would have beaten many other great HW's that have come & gone. Lewis was very effective at what he did, was very strong, & had massive power in the right hand.

However, if you nail Lewis on the button, it's all over for him. There's no way back from there. His chin will always count against him.

As I say, Lennox is up there with the best, but I can't see him beating Louis, Ali, Holmes, Tyson (at his best) or Liston.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2007, 14:23

Ezzard wrote:
pundit wrote:#7 for me.

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Johnson
4 Holmes
5 Foreman

6 Liston
7 Lewis
8 Langford
9 Frazier
10 Tunney

11 Marciano
12 Dempsey
13 Tyson
14 Charles
15 Wills

16 Jeffries
17 Holyfield
18 Corbett
19 Schmeling
20 Walcott
Top 4 is the same as mine

After that I change my mind from list to list.

The only thing that jumps out at me is that Holyfield should be above Tyson but that's for another day...

Yep, I change my mind from time to time as well. This is a list I did several months ago; now Langford strikes me as too high and Holyfield maybe a a tad too low. But then, being sandwiched between Jeffries and Corbett isn't such a mean feat, is it. Also I'm not totally convinced Holy should be above Tyson. Tyson was a force of nature in the late 1980s that Holyfield wasn't, not even at his best.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2007, 18:19

Dancing Destroyer wrote:I think it depends on what criteria you are judging this on.

Would Lennox have beaten Ali? In my opinion, yes. He would have been far too big and strong for Ali. Did Lennox dominate his division to the same degree as Ali? Probably more so. Were there any real challengers or top-class heavyweights in Lennox's era. Possibily not, but there definitely was in Ali's era.

My point is that its very hard to give a definitive answer to this question when there are so many factors to be considered.

Ali handled Foreman, who is stronger man than Lewis.

Ali would have been way too quick and too savvy for Lewis, who was never able to fight at the pace Ali did.

Ali dominated the heavyweight division every bit as much as Lewis, and never lost to fighters of the calibre of Rahman or McCall.

Lennox Lewis... All Time Rating.

Lennox Lewis' all time heavyweight ranking.