Lennox Lewis... All Time Rating.

[Dancing Destroyer]

[/quote]

Ali handled Foreman, who is stronger man than Lewis.

Ali would have been way too quick and too savvy for Lewis, who was never able to fight at the pace Ali did.

Ali dominated the heavyweight division every bit as much as Lewis, and never lost to fighters of the calibre of Rahman or McCall.[/quote]


I disagree that Foreman is stronger than Lennox. The tale of the tape is as such:

Lennox:
256lbs v Klitschko
6,5 " tall
84 " reach

Foreman:
220lbs for Rumble in the Jungle
6,3 " tall
82 " reach

Lennox is by far the bigger man and in my opinion the stronger. Agree with your comments re. McCall and Rahman, but Lewis did also turn around and spark both of those out when he was focussed.

As I said prevously, I don't really think you can compare era's.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Just because Lewis is bigger, does not mean he was stronger than foreman.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Ali handled Foreman, who is stronger man than Lewis.

Ali would have been way too quick and too savvy for Lewis, who was never able to fight at the pace Ali did.

Ali dominated the heavyweight division every bit as much as Lewis, and never lost to fighters of the calibre of Rahman or McCall.[/quote]


I disagree that Foreman is stronger than Lennox. The tale of the tape is as such:

Lennox:
256lbs v Klitschko
6,5 " tall
84 " reach

Foreman:
220lbs for Rumble in the Jungle
6,3 " tall
82 " reach

Lennox is by far the bigger man and in my opinion the stronger. Agree with your comments re. McCall and Rahman, but Lewis did also turn around and spark both of those out when he was focussed.

As I said prevously, I don't really think you can compare era's.[/quote]

You are also not comparing like for like.

Foreman's last fight before his first retirement he was 28 years old and weight 229.

Lewis was 37 when he beat Vitali. When he was 28 he weighed 229 against Frank Bruno.

[Tantum]

I think it depends on what criteria you are judging this on.

Would Lennox have beaten Ali? In my opinion, yes. He would have been far too big and strong for Ali. Did Lennox dominate his division to the same degree as Ali? Probably more so. Were there any real challengers or top-class heavyweights in Lennox's era. Possibily not, but there definitely was in Ali's era.

My point is that its very hard to give a definitive answer to this question when there are so many factors to be considered.

Ali handled Foreman, who is stronger man than Lewis.

Ali would have been way too quick and too savvy for Lewis, who was never able to fight at the pace Ali did.

Ali dominated the heavyweight division every bit as much as Lewis, and never lost to fighters of the calibre of Rahman or McCall.

Ali lost to Leon Spinks... :P

[Ezzard]

The heavyweight division more than any other is very difficult to rate in this manner because of the weight changes.

I mean there is no way a 190 pound Dempsey, Tunney, Patterson, Marciano etc etc would have had a chance against Lewis if you just pulled them out exactly as they were then.

Even Ali would in my opinion have been soundly beaten by the huge Lewis. I mean Ali was a whisker from being Ko'd by a 190 pound, fairly average Henry cooper, was put over heavily by 201 pound Joe Frasier, not to mention being rocked by a breadstick thin Bob Foster....he also struggled or went the distance with some awful heavies such as Chuck Wepner.

Of course had he boxed these days, he would have had the benefit of a strong weights programme, a better diet, not to mention the possibility of steroids and would have been an excellent fighter.

But if you just dragged Ali out of the 70s and put him in against Lewis it would be a no-contest.

It is probably more useful to look at historical significance and how they competed against the best of their time.

In which case Lewis would be top 15 / top 10 in my humble opinion.

In the 2nd fight Holyfield (essentially a 190 guy pumped up by modern methods) gave Lewis a hard time so it's not hard to imagine Dempsey and Frazier doing the same.

I agree with James that Lewis could not have fought for long at the kind pace Ali, Frazier, etc, would set

[jamesmcdonnell]

The heavyweight division more than any other is very difficult to rate in this manner because of the weight changes.

I mean there is no way a 190 pound Dempsey, Tunney, Patterson, Marciano etc etc would have had a chance against Lewis if you just pulled them out exactly as they were then.

Even Ali would in my opinion have been soundly beaten by the huge Lewis. I mean Ali was a whisker from being Ko'd by a 190 pound, fairly average Henry cooper, was put over heavily by 201 pound Joe Frasier, not to mention being rocked by a breadstick thin Bob Foster....he also struggled or went the distance with some awful heavies such as Chuck Wepner.

Of course had he boxed these days, he would have had the benefit of a strong weights programme, a better diet, not to mention the possibility of steroids and would have been an excellent fighter.

But if you just dragged Ali out of the 70s and put him in against Lewis it would be a no-contest.

It is probably more useful to look at historical significance and how they competed against the best of their time.

In which case Lewis would be top 15 / top 10 in my humble opinion.

In the 2nd fight Holyfield (essentially a 190 guy pumped up by modern methods) gave Lewis a hard time so it's not hard to imagine Dempsey and Frazier doing the same.

I agree with James that Lewis could not have fought for long at the kind pace Ali, Frazier, etc, would set

Yes and a 205 lb Holyfield gave a 240 lb Bowe all he could handle, and despite what people say, during his peak, Bowe was an exceptional heavyweight.

[Deserter]

The heavyweight division more than any other is very difficult to rate in this manner because of the weight changes.

I mean there is no way a 190 pound Dempsey, Tunney, Patterson, Marciano etc etc would have had a chance against Lewis if you just pulled them out exactly as they were then.

Even Ali would in my opinion have been soundly beaten by the huge Lewis. I mean Ali was a whisker from being Ko'd by a 190 pound, fairly average Henry cooper, was put over heavily by 201 pound Joe Frasier, not to mention being rocked by a breadstick thin Bob Foster....he also struggled or went the distance with some awful heavies such as Chuck Wepner.

Of course had he boxed these days, he would have had the benefit of a strong weights programme, a better diet, not to mention the possibility of steroids and would have been an excellent fighter.

But if you just dragged Ali out of the 70s and put him in against Lewis it would be a no-contest.

It is probably more useful to look at historical significance and how they competed against the best of their time.

In which case Lewis would be top 15 / top 10 in my humble opinion.

In the 2nd fight Holyfield (essentially a 190 guy pumped up by modern methods) gave Lewis a hard time so it's not hard to imagine Dempsey and Frazier doing the same.

I agree with James that Lewis could not have fought for long at the kind pace Ali, Frazier, etc, would set

Yes and a 205 lb Holyfield gave a 240 lb Bowe all he could handle, and despite what people say, during his peak, Bowe was an exceptional heavyweight.

Well said James. Bowe remains an utter enigma to me. At his peak he really was something special, but he went so, so spectacularly off the rails. We often talk about 'what could have been' with regards to Ike Ibeauchi (sure that's spelt incorrectly but can't be arsed to look it up!), but frequently gloss over the tragedy that is Bowe's career. Nobody handled Holyfield quite as well as he did and at his peak I'd have favoured him over the Lewis of that same period (at that stage Lewis appeared to have retained too many amateurish traits if memory serves me correctly).

[Dancing Destroyer]

Ali handled Foreman, who is stronger man than Lewis.

Ali would have been way too quick and too savvy for Lewis, who was never able to fight at the pace Ali did.

Ali dominated the heavyweight division every bit as much as Lewis, and never lost to fighters of the calibre of Rahman or McCall.

I disagree that Foreman is stronger than Lennox. The tale of the tape is as such:

Lennox:
256lbs v Klitschko
6,5 " tall
84 " reach

Foreman:
220lbs for Rumble in the Jungle
6,3 " tall
82 " reach

Lennox is by far the bigger man and in my opinion the stronger. Agree with your comments re. McCall and Rahman, but Lewis did also turn around and spark both of those out when he was focussed.

As I said prevously, I don't really think you can compare era's.[/quote]

You are also not comparing like for like.

Foreman's last fight before his first retirement he was 28 years old and weight 229.

Lewis was 37 when he beat Vitali. When he was 28 he weighed 229 against Frank Bruno.[/quote]

I am comparing the example you gave ie. Ali handled Foreman and at that time Foreman's TOTT was as per my post.

[E]

The heavyweight division more than any other is very difficult to rate in this manner because of the weight changes.

I mean there is no way a 190 pound Dempsey, Tunney, Patterson, Marciano etc etc would have had a chance against Lewis if you just pulled them out exactly as they were then.

Even Ali would in my opinion have been soundly beaten by the huge Lewis. I mean Ali was a whisker from being Ko'd by a 190 pound, fairly average Henry cooper, was put over heavily by 201 pound Joe Frasier, not to mention being rocked by a breadstick thin Bob Foster....he also struggled or went the distance with some awful heavies such as Chuck Wepner.

Of course had he boxed these days, he would have had the benefit of a strong weights programme, a better diet, not to mention the possibility of steroids and would have been an excellent fighter.

But if you just dragged Ali out of the 70s and put him in against Lewis it would be a no-contest.

It is probably more useful to look at historical significance and how they competed against the best of their time.

In which case Lewis would be top 15 / top 10 in my humble opinion.

In the 2nd fight Holyfield (essentially a 190 guy pumped up by modern methods) gave Lewis a hard time so it's not hard to imagine Dempsey and Frazier doing the same.

I agree with James that Lewis could not have fought for long at the kind pace Ali, Frazier, etc, would set

Yes and a 205 lb Holyfield gave a 240 lb Bowe all he could handle, and despite what people say, during his peak, Bowe was an exceptional heavyweight.

Good point and Chris Byrd has done well.

However I don't buy this belief that at heavy weight makes little difference.

Why is it that at l;ower weights 2lbs is considered a big weight advantage but 35 lbs at heavy is not such a big deal???

Let's look at this mathematically:

205 is 35lbs lighter than 240 lbs = 14.6% lighter

The equivalent at eg 140 lbs would be 119lbs (14.6% lighter) yet this would be considered an insurmountable obstacle.

In every sport athletes are bigger, faster and achieving progressively more impressive milestones (speed, strength events, throwing events etc.)

Why does it seem that boxing should be exempt from this?