Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson

[yiddo14]

Ps Tyson-Ruddock II was 12-rounds not 10, a qualifier I think.

yep.

tyson was no1 with all 3 sanctioning bodies at the time.

then he goes and rapes the beauty queen.

and does his back in before fighting evander.

my one big regret in boxing history is never getting tyson-holyfield in 1991. :(

Such a shame it did not happen.

Holyfield would have rapped Tyson at any point in his career.
Simply too tough.

Then we would not be having this silly discussion.

[yiddo14]

Seriously, if you love Tyson then fair play....he was my hero back in the day(still have a signed pic hanging in the room back home)

BUT, if you rate him ahywhere near the top 10 all time, go back and try to learn what Boxing is all about. You obviously know nothing.

He was not even the best of his generation...

[Goz]

Tyson had such a short peak but watch him blowing away even such a poor crop that he did - I think during that peak he was worth a place in an all time Heavy top 10.

Amazing we are even discussing it if you cast your mind back to those times - the only question back then was whether he would become the greatest.

But I think Leiws and Holyfield always give him problems and as such have their own place in the top 10 too. Exactly where is all about when they fought etc etc, arguments could rage for all time.

[yiddo14]

Holy and Lewis are above Tyson, without doubt.

Bowe had the talent to be above him too, but never managed it.

Tyson makes top 15...and he is lucky to do so.

Old man Formeman would beat his prime ass out on the street, and even Tyson knew it and kept away...

[Poncey]

Holy and Lewis are above Tyson, without doubt.

Bowe had the talent to be above him too, but never managed it.

Tyson makes top 15...and he is lucky to do so.

Old man Formeman would beat his prime ass out on the street, and even Tyson knew it and kept away...

No way, Tyson would of beat them all.

Why do you think so?

[Poncey]

For me, prime for prime, Tyson wouldn't hold a candle to Holyfield, Lewis or Holmes. As exciting as he was to watch in the 80s, Holyfield would grind out a decision, Lewis would stop him late and Holmes would probably do the same. The latter two had a jab as good as "Keep away" sign.

Tyson makes top 15 for me, but not top 10. He isn't even the most intimidating HW of all time.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Terry D, its that i think he would be too quick and powerful in the opening exchanges to catch lewis clean and send him down and out. Why you have to be a dick is beyond me.

I agree, I think prime to prime; I think Tyson would have won against Lewis, but Lewis is still the better champion no matter what I think.

[observer1]

Well seeing as he looked like a completley different fighter when Rooney left, and especially Post-Prison, even then he managed to obtain a lot of success. I have no doubt in my mind had Tyson gone through the 90's with the same mind-set and team as in the 85-88 period, Tyson would have remained unbeaten.

[Rocky Balboa]

Acheivement - Tyson - 21yr HW champ

Prime - Howvever Brief - Tyson

Take their primes and match them man for man - Only One winner

I second that! Tyson, at his peak, is one of the most complete HW's ever. Even when they did actually meet, Tyson got lumps beaten out of him, he took some mega punches from Lewis. If it was the other way around, Lewis' chin would fail him.

Speed kills. Tyson would be too ferocious, too quick of hand & foot for Lewis.

[Grilling Machine]

Still going then?!

I don't want to bore anyone, so I'll try to keep to points I haven't seen covered.

Firstly, I consider Lewis' prime to be '91-93, which goes against the general feeling. He was at his sharpest then, with great movement, speed and timing. His power was the lone improvement beyond this time, in my opinion. Most importantly though, he wasn't over-confident/arrogant. McCrory's late, last-ditch rally made Lennox hold the centre and cover up. The win was as guaranteed as it comes in boxing, yet he still had the sense to show respect to the opponent.

Another bad habit was the outstretched left hand. He usually had a significant reach advantage (this is very important regarding Tyson), which he used to line-up the hard right with. In the early days, his nervousness prevented him from lazily dangling that left. In the McCrory fight, he only does it when Glenn's on the ropes and not in a position to move forwards quickly.

Tyson never did much running in training, even for a heavy. The moment he took a breather against Lewis, he would've risked letting the tide turn. But he had (in '88) every skill to give Lewis nightmares in the opening two rounds.

Watch the McCall rematch on YouTube, and you'll witness a man being momentarily stunned by a couple of Oliver's punches, completely losing his boxing brain in the process. The hands come down just as Bruno's did; the difference was that Lennox needed to be toppled in a small window before recovering his confidence. Poor Frank didn't have a way back. Look at Len's eyes as he's hurt with an overhand right; that's pure fear (I don't blame him).

Prime Tyson would catch and floor the post-'95 Lewis on most nights. That shocked, abandoned defence is the key. He was often careless, as Jim Watt used to point out. The really interesting debate, I believe, is '88 Tyson vs. '91 Lewis. That's the one meeting I wouldn't like to bet on.

In summary:
Pre-jail Tyson beats any Lewis after '95.
Any Lewis beats post-jail Tyson.
Prime Tyson vs. the young LL: dunno. I'd slightly favour Mike on account of his head movement and footwork, but think Lewis might be able to tie-up and win at range. The latter could only happen when Lewis was fast (and he definitely was back then, people forget).

[Grilling Machine]

Yes, and the Moon would now be overbooked with Haye on the case.

[overhand_right]

Whilst its tempting to think oh well Tucker, Green and Bonecrusher messed up his work so Lewis and Bowe obviously could, lets not forget those three guys had to take some incredible whacks to the jaw.

Whilst i think Lewis and Bowe are better fighters, i doubt they could swallow those sledge hammer shots like Green and co did.

Tony Tubbs, Spinks and Carl Williams all of whom had equal or more talent to those guys were demolished once hit.

Holyfield though is always a safe bet over any version of Tyson.

[observer1]

Whilst its tempting to think oh well Tucker, Green and Bonecrusher messed up his work so Lewis and Bowe obviously could, lets not forget those three guys had to take some incredible whacks to the jaw.

Whilst i think Lewis and Bowe are better fighters, i doubt they could swallow those sledge hammer shots like Green and co did.

Tony Tubbs, Spinks and Carl Williams all of whom had equal or more talent to those guys were demolished once hit.

Holyfield though is always a safe bet over any version of Tyson.

I, amongst others, would differ..

[Loftgroov]

In a nutshell, Lewis was never "beaten" in the ring was he?

By that I mean, nobody he ever faced actually outclassed and got the better of him. Nobody had too good a jad for him, too strong a chin, too good ringmanship, or beat him over the distance or whatever..... Lewis only lost two fights because of two lucky punches (McCall even had his eyes closed when he slung a single big right that just so happened to land).

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Holyfield though is always a safe bet over any version of Tyson.

I watched this fight a while back and had Tyson winning most of the first 5 rounds and Holyfield taking over after that, Holyfield was hurt at 1 point too, I think in his prime Holyfield doesn't take over as easily and Tyson may stop him or grind out a decision. BUT then again Holy probably wasn't in his prime, just nearer too it than Tyson and nearer to 12round shape than Tyson

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

As for Lewis and Tyson prime for prime its a very tough call. Tyson wasn't the same BOXER post-1988 after Rooney left. But Tyson was also never given a run for his money in his prime.

Would Tyson always have faded down the stretch? His early pace is frantic and the Cus Demato style is the most physically demanding and draining of any style so it takes a fighter to be both in his prime and amazing condition to pull it off for 12rounds. Also a fighter as short as Tyson in the world of Super Heavies will always have problems as he tires, as long as hes bobbing and weaving and pressuring its fine, the moment he takes a breather hes buggered.

The thing about Tyson is his style is the hardest to pull off yet the most spectacular and dominating when pulled off to perfection

[Coco]

Tyson would have a punchers chance, but the jab is the most important and best weapon in the game.
Lewis has the best jab out there better than Holmes, Tyson would never get past it.
Both Holmes and Lewis would beat him

[overhand_right]

(McCall even had his eyes closed when he slung a single big right that just so happened to land).

By saying that you're implying McCall didn't know what he was doing.

McCall knew exactly what he was doing, he and Manny Steward planned for weeks to counter inside Lennoxs long telegraphed lazy right with his own right.

Hes even in the Boxing Monthly preview SAYING how we would do this to knock Lennox out, and he was comp-letely right.

I have all of McCalls televised fights dating back to David Jaco, he always closes his eyes when a punch is coming at him, its even been noted by commentators more than once.

[overhand_right]

Holyfield though is always a safe bet over any version of Tyson.

I watched this fight a while back and had Tyson winning most of the first 5 rounds and Holyfield taking over after that, Holyfield was hurt at 1 point too, I think in his prime Holyfield doesn't take over as easily and Tyson may stop him or grind out a decision. BUT then again Holy probably wasn't in his prime, just nearer too it than Tyson and nearer to 12round shape than Tyson

34 year old Holyfield with brutal taxing fights against Bowe, Mercer, Qawi under his belt still had more than enough left to deal with Tyson.

Theres no evidence to support Tyson beating a man the quality and status of Holyfield, let alone coming through a tough grinding fight and winning, he never did, he lost all of those by stoppage.

[stujones]

I watched this fight a while back and had Tyson winning most of the first 5 rounds and Holyfield taking over after that, Holyfield was hurt at 1 point too, I think in his prime Holyfield doesn't take over as easily and Tyson may stop him or grind out a decision. BUT then again Holy probably wasn't in his prime, just nearer too it than Tyson and nearer to 12round shape than Tyson

Yes, surprisingly I think myself, and Jim Watt had the fight closer than the judges did. I think I can remember someone from the commentary team / analysis claiming that Holyfield would probably need a KO to win especially at the time it wasn't known that King had options on Holyfield.

Lets not forget it took Holyfield a few years to fill out to Heavyweight, I don't think Bert Cooper would have hurt the 1996 version of Holyfield and Holyfield showed between 1992 and 1993 how much he had got his "man" strength at heavyweight. In the first fight with Bowe, it was Bowe sheer strength that won the day. In the rematch, Holyfield at times pushed Bowe back. That was prime Holyfield.

However, when Tyson and Holyfield were slated to fight in early 1991 (and often discussed way before that) then I think Tyson would have been too big physically..... Holyfield post 1993 - mmm... toughie to call.

[overhand_right]

Right a 6'3'' 260lb Foreman wasn't too big for Holy, nor a 245lb 6'4'' Douglas, but Tyson at this same time in 90/91 at 218lb and 5'10'' is going to be 'too big' for Holyfield?

That doesnt add up.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Right a 6'3'' 260lb Foreman wasn't too big for Holy, nor a 245lb 6'4'' Douglas, but Tyson at this same time in 90/91 at 218lb and 5'10'' is going to be 'too big' for Holyfield?

That doesnt add up.

Obviously its Skill+Size/Strength - Foreman was a beached whale in the 90s, Douglas just didnt show up against Vander, who is currently having his mansion repo'd

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Tyson would have a punchers chance, but the jab is the most important and best weapon in the game.
Lewis has the best jab out there better than Holmes, Tyson would never get past it.
Both Holmes and Lewis would beat him

Actually LEwis did not have the best jab, the technique wasnt particularly impressive, he had a massive reach though. yson was the best slipper of the jab and slipped far better jabs than Lewis and came out on top

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Holyfield though is always a safe bet over any version of Tyson.

I watched this fight a while back and had Tyson winning most of the first 5 rounds and Holyfield taking over after that, Holyfield was hurt at 1 point too, I think in his prime Holyfield doesn't take over as easily and Tyson may stop him or grind out a decision. BUT then again Holy probably wasn't in his prime, just nearer too it than Tyson and nearer to 12round shape than Tyson

34 year old Holyfield with brutal taxing fights against Bowe, Mercer, Qawi under his belt still had more than enough left to deal with Tyson.

Theres no evidence to support Tyson beating a man the quality and status of Holyfield, let alone coming through a tough grinding fight and winning, he never did, he lost all of those by stoppage.

All besides the point, which is Tyson was further past prime, had been out the ring for 4years, had only fought 8 rounds in 6years, not been past the 3rd round in 6years and no longer had his stamina, and stamina is the most important thing in boxing with all else being equal.

Tyson has beat men of the 'qaulity and status of Holyfield' he just made them look ordinary. Its a myth Tyson hasn't been in taxing fights against, what about Rudduck?Bruno?

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I watched this fight a while back and had Tyson winning most of the first 5 rounds and Holyfield taking over after that, Holyfield was hurt at 1 point too, I think in his prime Holyfield doesn't take over as easily and Tyson may stop him or grind out a decision. BUT then again Holy probably wasn't in his prime, just nearer too it than Tyson and nearer to 12round shape than Tyson

Yes, surprisingly I think myself, and Jim Watt had the fight closer than the judges did. I think I can remember someone from the commentary team / analysis claiming that Holyfield would probably need a KO to win especially at the time it wasn't known that King had options on Holyfield.

Lets not forget it took Holyfield a few years to fill out to Heavyweight, I don't think Bert Cooper would have hurt the 1996 version of Holyfield and Holyfield showed between 1992 and 1993 how much he had got his "man" strength at heavyweight. In the first fight with Bowe, it was Bowe sheer strength that won the day. In the rematch, Holyfield at times pushed Bowe back. That was prime Holyfield.

However, when Tyson and Holyfield were slated to fight in early 1991 (and often discussed way before that) then I think Tyson would have been too big physically..... Holyfield post 1993 - mmm... toughie to call.

Holyfield was definately a bigger stronger man against Tyson, gaining 10-12lbs of solid ripped muscle mass, I think both fighters were roiding for this 1 though, both had been involved with known steroid specialists.

I wouldn't say a smaller Holyfield was worse, he had a higher workrate and was probably quicker. If Holyfield brawled like he did against Bowe in the first fight Tyson would pull out the win, he learnt allot from that fight technically and came back smarter outboxing Bowe in the rematch