Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson

[stujones]

Right a 6'3'' 260lb Foreman wasn't too big for Holy, nor a 245lb 6'4'' Douglas, but Tyson at this same time in 90/91 at 218lb and 5'10'' is going to be 'too big' for Holyfield?

That doesnt add up.

Foreman was 40! And Holyfield BOXED him, he never really backed him up, never had him hurt and simply was too quick for Foreman. Just like Morrison was, just like most of the times the big man came unstuck in his comeback.

There is only one fighter who used a jab tactics to beat Tyson and that was Lewis when Tyson was way out of shape. Holyfield beat Tyson the "right" way in 1996. Thats the way to do it, break his spirit by taking his best whacks and pushing him back. Would Holyfield have had the strength to do that in 1998-1991... I have some doubts. Holyfield fight the way he fought Foreman against Tyson - then Tyson would have won comfortably... playing into his hands.

Douglas was fat, diebetic and out of conditioning.

These fights were still 2 years into his Heavyweight run - the fight was first discussed in 1987/1988

[Coco]

Tyson would have a punchers chance, but the jab is the most important and best weapon in the game.
Lewis has the best jab out there better than Holmes, Tyson would never get past it.
Both Holmes and Lewis would beat him

Actually LEwis did not have the best jab, the technique wasnt particularly impressive, he had a massive reach though. yson was the best slipper of the jab and slipped far better jabs than Lewis and came out on top

I'm not going to quibble about who had the best jab, but my point remains, the jab being the best weopan and it is the best tool for offsetting the puncher by keeping him off balance.
I maintain Holmes and Lewis would have beaten Tyson, with the jab being the key to success. It was also the tool that Douglas won with, and fighters that did better against Tyson were good Jabbers.
The reason Bruno did as well as he did was beacause of his height and jab, but Tyson was quick enough to slip the robotic Bruno.
He wouldn't have done that against Holmes or Lewis IMO

[stujones]

Tyson fought other good jabbers, not in the same callibre as Holmes or Lewis, but I think the point is what the fighter did after the jab. Jab, grab, push back, Jab, grab, push back - is what Douglas did. It was the pushing him back, commanding the centre of the ring that was critical.

Jab and move like Thomas, Biggs valiantly tried to do - then I'm afraid its playing into Tyson's hands.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Right a 6'3'' 260lb Foreman wasn't too big for Holy, nor a 245lb 6'4'' Douglas, but Tyson at this same time in 90/91 at 218lb and 5'10'' is going to be 'too big' for Holyfield?

That doesnt add up.

Foreman was 40! And Holyfield BOXED him, he never really backed him up, never had him hurt and simply was too quick for Foreman. Just like Morrison was, just like most of the times the big man came unstuck in his comeback.

There is only one fighter who used a jab tactics to beat Tyson and that was Lewis when Tyson was way out of shape. Holyfield beat Tyson the "right" way in 1996. Thats the way to do it, break his spirit by taking his best whacks and pushing him back. Would Holyfield have had the strength to do that in 1998-1991... I have some doubts. Holyfield fight the way he fought Foreman against Tyson - then Tyson would have won comfortably... playing into his hands.

Douglas was fat, diebetic and out of conditioning.

These fights were still 2 years into his Heavyweight run - the fight was first discussed in 1987/1988

I always thought the same Stu, that Holyfield would have lacked the strength on the inside had they had their fight back the first time it was meant to happen.

Douglas actually used some illegal tactics in that fight to disrupt Tyson, and in truth, Tyson looked disinterested for that fight, he had none of the prowl or snarl were used to seeing. Even Bruno mentioned it during the commentary, he said something along the lines of 'Tyson doesn't look right' before the first bell had even sounded.

[jamesmcdonnell]

(McCall even had his eyes closed when he slung a single big right that just so happened to land).

By saying that you're implying McCall didn't know what he was doing.

McCall knew exactly what he was doing, he and Manny Steward planned for weeks to counter inside Lennoxs long telegraphed lazy right with his own right.

Hes even in the Boxing Monthly preview SAYING how we would do this to knock Lennox out, and he whe bas comp-letely right.

I have all of McCalls televised fights dating back to David Jaco, he always closes his eyes when a punch is coming at him, its even been noted by commentators more than once.

Yes. The notion that McCall was lucky is sheer nonsense. Lewis was technically poor at that stage, relying in his power, and physical tools way too much.

McCall had the best training camp of his life, the best sparring partners, a long camp, and the full might of Don King's support staff behind him, whereas he was usually just treated as the camp sparring partner, for this one, Don pulled out all the stops to ensure he got control of the heavyweight title once more.

Neither McCall nor Rahman were lucky, in the first fight, McCall was coached to exploit Lennox's lazy defence, and McCall also had the chin to withstand Lewis' big shots early on.

In the second instance, Rahman simply outlasted Lewis, whose poor training depleted his stamina at altitude. Rahman saw the opening when the ass fell out of Lewis and he started gasping for air, and he hit the retreating Lewis with a peach of a punch.

The Lewis who lost to McCall would have been eaten alive by Tyson.

[observer1]

(McCall even had his eyes closed when he slung a single big right that just so happened to land).

By saying that you're implying McCall didn't know what he was doing.

McCall knew exactly what he was doing, he and Manny Steward planned for weeks to counter inside Lennoxs long telegraphed lazy right with his own right.

Hes even in the Boxing Monthly preview SAYING how we would do this to knock Lennox out, and he whe bas comp-letely right.

I have all of McCalls televised fights dating back to David Jaco, he always closes his eyes when a punch is coming at him, its even been noted by commentators more than once.

Yes. The notion that McCall was lucky is sheer nonsense. Lewis was technically poor at that stage, relying in his power, and physical tools way too much.

McCall had the best training camp of his life, the best sparring partners, a long camp, and the full might of Don King's support staff behind him, whereas he was usually just treated as the camp sparring partner, for this one, Don pulled out all the stops to ensure he got control of the heavyweight title once more.

Neither McCall nor Rahman were lucky, in the first fight, McCall was coached to exploit Lennox's lazy defence, and McCall also had the chin to withstand Lewis' big shots early on.

In the second instance, Rahman simply outlasted Lewis, whose poor training depleted his stamina at altitude. Rahman saw the opening when the ass fell out of Lewis and he started gasping for air, and he hit the retreating Lewis with a peach of a punch.

The Lewis who lost to McCall would have been eaten alive by Tyson.

Exactly.

Lewis was indeed good, But they forget, Lewis beat a very poor Tyson. im pretty sure Tyson would return the favour if it was a decent shape Tyson against a very poor Lewis.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Tyson would have a punchers chance, but the jab is the most important and best weapon in the game.
Lewis has the best jab out there better than Holmes, Tyson would never get past it.
Both Holmes and Lewis would beat him

Actually LEwis did not have the best jab, the technique wasnt particularly impressive, he had a massive reach though. yson was the best slipper of the jab and slipped far better jabs than Lewis and came out on top

I'm not going to quibble about who had the best jab, but my point remains, the jab being the best weopan and it is the best tool for offsetting the puncher by keeping him off balance.
I maintain Holmes and Lewis would have beaten Tyson, with the jab being the key to success. It was also the tool that Douglas won with, and fighters that did better against Tyson were good Jabbers.
The reason Bruno did as well as he did was beacause of his height and jab, but Tyson was quick enough to slip the robotic Bruno.
He wouldn't have done that against Holmes or Lewis IMO

Tyson fought some guys with great jabs an nearly always slipped it, Pinklon Thomas had a great jab arguably better than Lewis/Holmes, Holmes himself (slower but outboxed and taken apart like Holyfield would be unable to years later), Tucker and was it Biggs or Tubbs who did an impressive Ali stick and move impression? (always get those 2 mixed up)

[stujones]

It was Biggs, Tubbs did an excellent Butterbean impression (but Tubbs could fight).