Prime Joe Frazier vs Prime Mike Tyson

[yiddo14]

Granted, but the likes of Frazier are another huge step up from the guys you list that Tyson went the distance with.

Frazier would have kept getting up against Foreman until he was eventually killed. Of course, I don't need to point to Frazier/Ali 3 to prove Joe's ridiculous toughness, you all know and have seen that fight many a time I guess.

I'am intrigued to know if anyone can count how many times Tyson hit the canvas in his career and managed to actually get up and fight on(let alone come back and win)

That's the reason why I would never back a prime Tyson against a prime Frazier, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Lewis, Marciano, Holyfield, Dempsey, Holmes or Liston.
He wasn't tough enough to stick it out against these ultra tough, intimidating bastards.

[Robinson]

Eventually the referee would step in, I guess if you get knocked down and get up thats fine.

But if your say trapped on the ropes getting blasted.

I think Frazier has a lot more heart and fought a better, classical list of guys. I even enjoy watching him fight more.

BUT..

I think Tyson still beats Frazier/

[Goodnight, Irene]

Frazier was a huge step-up in class for Foreman when they first met, but the fact was, Frazier couldn't handle the power. As I said, Foreman missed as many punches as he landed that night. Tyson wouldn't miss like that. True, Foreman's height & reach made it easier for him than it would be for Tyson, but I still don't see Frazier surviving the clean punches he would almost invariably be hit with.

Tyson never got off the canvas to win. Something to chew on.

[BoxBuzz]

Tyson never got off the canvas to win. Something to chew on.

It's all you need to know.....and no matter what your opinion of Tyson, that fact is as stunning as it is telling. Not once did he accomplish that feat.

In Tyson's career Down=Out....even if not immediately...it signaled game over. Frazier was NEVER truly stopped. And the only time he would have been stopped his corner knew he was going to go back in, and die if that was what was required of him. Thankfully his corner cared too much for him to let him continue on in that hopeless situation. That is one thing he and Ali had in common...hearts as big as the sport itself.

One has to wonder how many times Joe would have kept getting back up in those Foreman fights. Hell the fight might still be going on if there were no limits.

Tyson.....an entirely different kettle of fish on that subject.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"It's all you need to know.....and no matter what your opinion of Tyson, that fact is as stunning as it is telling. Not once did he accomplish that feat.

In Tyson's career Down=Out....even if not immediately...it signaled game over. Frazier was NEVER truly stopped. And the only time he would have been stopped his corner knew he was going to go back in, and die if that was what was required of him. Thankfully his corner cared too much for him to let him continue on in that hopeless situation. That is one thing he and Ali had in common...hearts as big as the sport itself.

One has to wonder how many times Joe would have kept getting back up in those Foreman fights. Hell the fight might still be going on if there were no limits.

Tyson.....an entirely different kettle of fish on that subject." - BoxBuzz

Foreman on Frazier: "This guy was a machine. He would eat you up. So, at that time, I figured I could become Heavyweight champion, if Joe Frazier would have an accident or something."

[I Feel Fine]

I wouldn't be surprised either way. And, either way, Frazier is the better fighter.

[Jaybee From The Castle]

The key here is the speed/strength ratio, for which (Prime) Tyson is still unmatched throughout the history of Boxing. Tyson was faster than Frazier and Foreman, and hit much harder than Ali. I have no doubt that he'd land more shots than Foreman could, and that those shots would be harder than those landed by Ali.

With that amount of Psi landed on Frazier's chin in a short period of time, we're taking it into uncharted waters. He'd be vbadly traumatised by the 5th, if he gets that far.

[Syntax Error]

Granted, but the likes of Frazier are another huge step up from the guys you list that Tyson went the distance with.

Frazier would have kept getting up against Foreman until he was eventually killed. Of course, I don't need to point to Frazier/Ali 3 to prove Joe's ridiculous toughness, you all know and have seen that fight many a time I guess.

I'am intrigued to know if anyone can count how many times Tyson hit the canvas in his career and managed to actually get up and fight on(let alone come back and win)

That's the reason why I would never back a prime Tyson against a prime Frazier, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Lewis, Marciano, Holyfield, Dempsey, Holmes or Liston.
He wasn't tough enough to stick it out against these ultra tough, intimidating bastards.

Spot-on.

This echoes my feelings about Tyson.

I believe that Tyson does not get rated like other fighters.

His devotees take a sweet-spot in his career & confidently say that nobody could have beaten him (why don't these people apply the same logic to Donald Curry, who at one point looked like he might become one of, if not, the best WW ever [speculative of course]?)

Whevener he lost, there was always an excuse, not an acceptance that the better man won on the night.

For me, an ATG has to fight back from adversity at some point in their career, otherwise you are into the realms of the unknown.

The only time Tyson prevailed in anything remotely resembling adveristy was against Ruddock in the rematch & even then, he could have lost with the amount of points he got docked & he was also extremely lucky that Ruddock was just as one dimensional was he was in '91, otherwise Razor (who is nowhere near to ATG status) could have taken him.

[Loki]

In 1986 Iron Mike, in my humble opinion, would have beaten most HW's prime for prime. Tyson would have come about blazing and steamrolled Smokin Joe early. Frazier's only chance would to hurt Tyson on way in with a left hook, but Tyson was so quick on the attack with his peek-a-boo style.

Frazier was in his prime in 71, but I fail to see anything in his arsenal to trouble Tyson. It would be dis-similar to Foreman's win over Frazier in 73.

Tyson TKO 4 Frazier.

So who, then, are the great Heavyweights that would have beaten that Tyson?

Long time to wait for reply, but here it goes. Only 1 for sure; Joe Louis. Ali, Marciano, Dempsey and possibly Lewis (all in there primes).

[Gino Dragon]

Mike Tyson by KO in the first round...

[dr_devious]

One of Tyson's biggest weapons was intimidation, and in no way would he intimidate Smokin Joe. Frazier in 7 or 8 brutal rounds imo

[Knucklez]

"...Most people say he was shot when he lost to Douglas, but I'm not so sure...." - Syntax

Who says that!? Slap them across the face, if you ever hear someone utter something so ludicrous. It's one (silly) thing to say Tyson was past his prime when he faced Douglas (shortly before his 24th birthday, LOL), but to say he's shot!? Absurd excuse-making.

He wasn't shot, & he wasn't past his best. Under-prepped? Yeah, that I could see. He sure was living the high life at this point. Even so, that was still the same Mike Tyson who decimated Berbick, Holmes & Spinks. There are only excuses for the loss to Douglas --- nothing legitimate.

So every fighter's prime HAS to be between the ages of 25-29? Absurd. Prime is defined by what a fighter did during a certain period, not by his age. Tyson's prime was 86-88, when he was early twenties. This is simple fact, I'm not sure why you can't grasp this.

[BoxBuzz]

I think Archie Moore would have had some interesting things to say about when a fighter's prime might happen to be. Every fighter is different, though you can argue pretty well that there are "typical" scenarios that hold true for the majority. There are also some glaring exceptions.

[Diamond WEAPON]

I think Archie Moore would have had some interesting things to say about when a fighter's prime might happen to be. Every fighter is different, though you can argue pretty well that there are "typical" scenarios that hold true for the majority. There are also some glaring exceptions.

Exactly, I mean fighters may have a physical prime, a time where physically they were at their best and most enduring and an actual prime which may come later with more experience even with some slight physical decline (i.e. Bernard Hopkins) as well as the fact that different fighters reach each of those (though often times they coincide) at different times in their lives. Some fighters soar in their early 20's only to fall from grace by their late 20's/early 30's and crash (i.e. Tyson, Fernando Vargas, Ray Mancini, Most 105-118 lbers) and some don't even get to their full glory until their mid-30's and beyond (Antonio Tarver, Winky Wright, Joe Calzaghe, Bernard Hopkins, etc.).

[elmersalsa]

The great Joe Frazier that beat the great Muhammad Ali in The Fight of the Century was unbelievable. Not too many fighters would have beaten him that night. Not even a PRIME Tyson or Ali.

Smoking Joe was relentless. The longer the fight, the warmer he gets. He was like a machine. After the Ali I fight, he was not the same. But Frazier, circa 1968-71, was awesome.

I could not see Tyson beating him.

[observer1]

Some people do not understand the term Boxing Prime.

A guys Boxing Prime can be when he is 20-25, it can be when he is 10-13, it can eveb be when he is 49-50. That is Boxing Prime, and a completley different thing to Physical Prime.

Reason why they say Tyson was as a good as shot around the Douglas fight and afterwards was due to his chaotic life, tragic deaths, and losing his hunger for the sport. His Boxing Prime was gone at this point.

You can argue Tyson was in his physical Peak Post-Prison, since he was around 28-30. However, as fantastic as he was ast this period, it was clear he was not even half the elusive fighter he was back when he bcame undisuputed champion the 1st Round in 88.

[cultus]

Frazier style was made for Tyson. He didn't have a good defence and his chin could not have filled the gap. That bobbing and weaving might seem elusive to you uneducated folk .. but in reality he was SO predictable.

Tyson KO3

Plus a Prime Ali stops him too. Whoever says older Ali was better are wrong.

[cultus]

You can argue Tyson was in his physical Peak Post-Prison, since he was around 28-30. However, as fantastic as he was ast this period, it was clear he was not even half the elusive fighter he was back when he bcame undisuputed champion the 1st Round in 88.

your so right. Elusive is the term.

[Ambling Alp]

Elusive in the Spinks fight? The fight took 91 seconds. Tyson proved he was elusive because of that? How many times did Spinks even try to hit him in that short of period of time?

Frazier had great head movement and was harder to hit than Tyson.

[Seamus]

I've never seen any evidence that Joe Frazier had good defense. In his own words he said "I'll always take a punch to land a punch". So he slipped alot of Ali's jabs in the 71 fight, but he also got hit consistently that night as well. Tyson on the other hand had excellent head movement in his prime. Just watch him slip Carl "The Truth" Williams' (an excellent jabber) jab and knock him out with a counter to the head.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened, had Frazier defended his title against Lyle or Shavers instead of Daniels and Stander. In 72-73 I think there's an outside chance either guy might have KO'd Frazier had they landed first.

Against Tyson, I doubt anyone would ever question Frazier's courage, but with Iron Mike's power, accuracy and handspeed, I think it's just a matter of how many times the referee lets Frazier go down before he stops it. My guess is that it would last about as long as the first Foreman fight.

[Ambling Alp]

Fighters of this basic style (You could add Dempsey and Marciano) aren't going to have great defenses. However, Frazier usually showed great head movement and didn't get hit a lot for a fighter of this style.

Ali was of course a very accurrate puncher and he missed a lot more than he did in most of his fights.

I though Frazier looked fine against Daniels and Stander. As usual, he started off slow in the first couple fo rounds, but then he was in control. Neither fight lasted too long.

He would have been a little sharper had he been going up against a better fighter like Shavers or Lyle. He probably would have lost the first couple of rounds, but he would come back to win.

The Carl Williams fight was 1 round against a guy with glass jaw. Not only did Douglas hit Tyson a lot, but so did Tony Tucker. Ruddock, Bruno, got to him some a swell. And of course Holyfield hit him a lot. The main reason that Tyson didn't get a more was that he usually was on the offense against an oppenent who wasn't fighting back.

Tyson was also very overrated at fighting inside. Often he would do almost nothing. Frazier would make him pay for that. Holyfield beat up Tyson inside and Frazier could as well.

[observer1]

Elusive in the Spinks fight? The fight took 91 seconds. Tyson proved he was elusive because of that? How many times did Spinks even try to hit him in that short of period of time?

Frazier had great head movement and was harder to hit than Tyson.

Im reffering to the period when he won the fight.

I mean if you watch Prime Frazier Fights and Prime Tyson Fights.

Watching Frazier looks like a Box-Standard ATG Heavyweight.

Watching Tyson looks like a friggin video game, i mean the Knockouts were not just random hayemakers, and Brutal combo's.

Tyson was also very overrated at fighting inside. Often he would do almost nothing. Frazier would make him pay for that. Holyfield beat up Tyson inside and Frazier could as well.

Holyfield beat a Post Prison Tyson. It was only a matter of time Tyson was going to lose and his Circus-esque Maniac tale was to end. I cannot understand why boxers are rated for beating Tyson after Prison, Pre-Prison Tyson and Post-Prison Tyson were almost two different fighters, im sure you wuld be able to convince someone who has no idea about Tyson and Boxing that their two different people.

I refuse to believe for even a second Prime Tyson would struggle against any version of Holyfield.
As for Frazier, IMO Tyson > Frazier > Holyfield.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Observer...

"...I mean if you watch Prime Frazier Fights and Prime Tyson Fights.

Watching Frazier looks like a Box-Standard ATG Heavyweight.

Watching Tyson looks like a friggin video game, i mean the Knockouts were not just random hayemakers, and Brutal combo's..."



"...I refuse to believe for even a second Prime Tyson would struggle against any version of Holyfield..."

I am one of the relative few who believe, pomp-for-pomp, Tyson bests Holyfield, but this kind of love for Tyson is laughable, & typical of his wildly delusional fans. The man just does not have the wins to justify his talent. It's that simple.

[Ambling Alp]

I also think that some people underrate Tyson. He had great power, speed, tenacity. Certainly one of the Top 10-15 heavyweights of All-time.
However, some people go way over the top with the "Prime Tyson" crap.
He is suddenly past his prime at the age of 23? How convenient. That just happens to be when he lost to Douglas.
You could do that with anyone. Just say they are past their prime when they had their first loss and no losses count against them.

Of course Tyson had some devastating knockouts. However, it's not like he blew out everyone right away. He had a lot of trouble with Tony Tucker and James Tillis. Razor Ruddock gave him some trouble. He didn't exactly look awesome against James Smith. All four went the distance with Tyson.
Pinklon Thomas did make it to the the 6th round and was somewhat competitive. Even Tyrell Biggs made it to the 7th round. Yet somehow people think it's out of the question for Joe Frazier possibly make it past the 3rd round.

As for Frazier's getting blown out by Foreman. Some people seem to think that is embarrrassing. Well Foreman blew almost everyone out. Tyson got knocked out by Buster Douglas. (Who esle worth mentioning did douglas ever stop?) What is more embarrassing, getting knocked out by Foreman or Buster Douglas?

[Ezzard]

The Tyson myth is the bugbear of all internet boxing forums.

How many times in boxing history have we seen a big puncher look unbeatable only to lose to someone with a defence who stood their ground? Why is the example of Tyson any different?