George Foreman: Was Ali Ducking a Rematch?

[BoxBuzz]

round' an round' it goes on this subject. Foreman was perfect for Ali, it was a style discrepancy and George would most always end up at the losing end of it. A bit like Foreman Frazier where Foreman becomes the beneficiary in the style matchup dept. Ali ducked no one. If he would have ducked a few he would be in a better place today. Ali was the "Anti Duck" of all time. He ran directly into all oncoming traffic, in the honest belief that he would end up forcing everyone else off the road.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Foreman was beaten convincingly and knocked out.

- Ali has more high profile controversies of almost every imaginable sort starting early in his career and finishing with the Neon Leon series.

Foreman was one of the controversies. Tampering with the ropes, placing his head 2' out of the natural perimeter of the ropes, not fighting back for long extended periods, rabbit punching George after he lunged in off balance with neck resting on the ropes which started the classic combo highlight everyone raves about. Finally, George on his feet half way up at the count of 9 in a slightly short count before being waved off.

Not gonna complain about a decent count, it was very close, but George had never been down in his life and was up and looking at Clayton when waved off. Ali collapses seconds later, and when asked about the rematch in the post fight interview threatens to retire. Foreman is ready to rumble again and give props to Ali as the better man THAT NIGHT. Review the 2004 Ring Anniversary edition of Ring for all the interview particulars, including a Big George update interview. Obviously Ali was unable for interview.

There have been much worse in the ring controversies, but it's more than that, it was the conditions leading up to the fight that all favored Ali. George was a ship lost at sea before ever stepping into the ring, and Ali could never duplicate those unusual conditions again.

Yes, full credit for Ali during a down time of his career, even beating a poorly prepared Foreman a huge achievement, but clearly Ali ducks the rematch, and was ducking Norton and Young mandatories as well. Spinks, Dunn, Coopman, Alfredo, ect, were not contenders. He followed up Foreman with Wepner and Lyle with Lyle a big unproven slugger coming off a loss to Young. Ali runs around and ropa dopes Lyle, not winning a single round, barely throwing a punch. He suddenly surprises Lyle with a right that hurts him and flurries as Lyle decides to ropa a dope Ali and the fight called off for Ali.

It's easy to say Ali would beat Foreman, but the evidence shows he was quite fortunate in a number of his wins, propped up by the powers that be. I was reviewing the early Logan fight where he and Logan are getting it on. Logan is in the middle of really taking it to Ali on the ropes when his corner throws in the towel. Logan is disgusted, and you can bet your booties his corner bet on Ali and decided to cash in in case things got out of hand. Banks stopped for no reason in Ruby Goldstein's last fight directly after his botch of the Griffith/Paret rematch, the Jones and Cooper controversies, not to mention the Liston fiascoes, controversies never stop with this kid.

Ali seemed to be protected by a magic amulet, and who knows, he might have been and it's tragic he never listened to the calls for retirement until too late. He was very vulnerable all through his career, even during his post Liston prime when Chuvalo gave him all he could handle and Mildy had him in more than a spot of trouble, a brilliant finish for Ali, but what had that been Sultan Ibragimov in there, a vastly larger, stronger, more credentialed southpaw?

Or Michael Moorer, or Corrie Sanders, or Chris Byrd? This is nonsense just dismissing Foreman by saying Ali would beat him. Talk is cheap and the rematch the largest purse in boxing history to that point and the record shows George moving heaven and hell trying to get it made and Ali admits in his Playboy interview he'd been offered by a "black" oilman in the middle east to stage the rematch in Indonesia for $5 mil apiece.

Ali ducked. Maybe he was entitled to coast after Foreman, but that's another subject.

[HomicideHenry]

round' an round' it goes on this subject. Foreman was perfect for Ali, it was a style discrepancy and George would most always end up at the losing end of it. A bit like Foreman Frazier where Foreman becomes the beneficiary in the style matchup dept. Ali ducked no one. If he would have ducked a few he would be in a better place today. Ali was the "Anti Duck" of all time. He ran directly into all oncoming traffic, in the honest belief that he would end up forcing everyone else off the road.

I just dont agree. The evidence is all there that Foreman was the top man for Ali to defend against, and within that ninety day clause, he ups and retires. Foreman is left with no choice but to arrange other fights to become champion again. The once those arrangements were made, Ali came back and defended against 16-0 Alfredo Evangelista. The Foreman rematch would have been, as Broughton said, the biggest fight in history up until then, if it was so easy a fight for Ali to take, he would have and pocketed another win over George. I think the BOXING NEWS articles I showed pretty much shows this to be true, with Ali saying he'd fight Foreman, only to say he was retired a week later.

People dont wish to belittle Ali these days because of the Parkinson's, he's become this sympathetic figure where its unsaid but made up in peoples minds to defend his honor because he obviously cant any more. Its easy to say he could defeat Foreman, because of the Parkinson's he has today, which in peoples minds makes him the toughest of the 1970's cus he took the best from the best. Fact of business is, by late 1976-1977 he was on a slippery slope that even the slow moving (but hard hitting) Earnie Shavers managed to almost knock him out in the second round. Foreman was faster, more formidable than Shavers, so who knows.

Like I said, whether George could have won a rematch or not is not up for debate, but the facts remain: Foreman beat two of the top four contenders in 1976, was voted FIGHTER OF THE YEAR, having the FIGHT OF THE YEAR, THE ROUND OF THE YEAR, and managed to secure a WBC mandatory shot at the winner of Norton-Ali 3, which Ali won. Within those 90 days, Ali retires, makes a biopic of himself, appears in comic books, has a 'fight' with Antonio Inoki, does rasslin' matches, exhibitions and right when Foreman books another fight....he returns to the ring, having never quite finished the paperwork for retirement and declares himself still the champion, that the WBC didnt tell him what to do, and he goes straight after Evangelista.

Foreman, then loses to Jimmy Young, who would later "lose" to Ali. Then Ali announces he'll fight the winner of Norton-Bobick, but Norton demolishes Bobick. Ali reshuffles his cards and announces he'll fight the winner of Norton-Young, and again Norton wins. Then comes Leon Spinks who wants to fight Ali, and he gets a deal that if he can defeat the mediocre Alfio Righetti he'll get Ali. Spinks defeats Righetti, then defeats Ali. Spinks refuses Norton, the WBC automatically strips Spinks of the crown, evidentially tired of years and years of so-called champions dismissing their mandatories.

[observer1]

IF you watch the bout, Ali beat him soundly. he was actually winning all 3 judges scorecards too.

IMO, Ali would have beaten him in a re-match easily. He showed in their bout that he could out-box Foreman and take his biggest blows.

[HomicideHenry]

I have watched the bout. Round one was Foreman's, but from then on out, it was Ali. I'm not diminishing Ali's win over Foreman, had it been any other heavyweight in history, I dont think any of them would have survived, but, I've said it once and I'll say it again:

Whether Ali would defeat Foreman again in a rematch or not, isnt what is up for debate.

The evidence is all there, that the fight should have taken place. Ali didn't take his mandatory in Foreman, nor did he in 1977 take on his mandatory in Norton.

[Ambling Alp]

I thought Homocidehenry was done with starting Anti-Ali posts. This isn't even the first time he has brought this subject up.
What happened is pretty simple.
Foreman did not fight at all in 1975. Therefore by 1976, he wasn't the #1 contender. Ali did defend the title the #1 contender and the #2 contender in 1976.
In early 1977, Foreman lost to Jimmy Young. End of story.

After Foreman destroyed Lyle and Frazier, Ali kept making excuses. His continuing argument, which there wasn't even a basis for it, was "One more fight, and I'll fight him."

Don't also forget, when Foreman gatecrashed a press conference once, Ali said "Two more fights" when Foreman asked him when he was going to get a rematch. The date assigned for this fight was supposedly in November of 1976, then Ali out of the blue said he was retiring. Foreman then starts in negotiations to line up a few fights, and then all of a sudden Ali said he never was retiring and instead of fighting Foreman, he chose Alfredo Evangelista, in what was considered the worst heavyweight title fight of all time.

Foreman, in desperation, then fought Jimmy Young in a title eliminator, and lost. Not long after that Jimmy Young would 'lose' a controversial decision to Muhammad Ali who never took Young seriously, figuring him for another Evangelista. By 1977 the top contenders were guys like Mike Schutte, Bobick and of course Evangelista. Ali had no intentions of fighting anyone difficult unless he absoloutely had to.

How many former champions can you name who either got returns off the bat, or returns after defeating at least one top contender? I can throw many names from Dempsey to even Muhammad Ali himself getting returns either off the bat or within reason. Foreman defeated two of the top four contenders in 1976 in Frazier and Lyle, but was passed over.

To say Foreman didnt pay his dues, is bullshit. Who the hell cares whether he could or couldnt win a rematch with Ali, thats not the point. The argument here is, what more could Foreman have done, considering what he did in 1976 alone? He was a former champion, defeated two of the top four contenders in '76, was voted FIGHTER OF THE YEAR, in the FIGHT OF THE YEAR, and the 5th round in Lyle-Foreman was also voted ROUND OF THE YEAR as well. After demolishing Frazier, most magazine titles were like this (International Boxing issue): "BIG GEORGE FOREMAN, THE MAIN MAN IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT PICTURE AGAIN."

And dont use the excuse Foreman didnt want a rematch either with Ali, or that he squandered his own chances, because virtually off the bat Foreman tried like hell, even appearing in SPORTS ILLUSTRATED in 1975 saying he wanted Ali again and was planning his comeback in a big way. Hell he even said on November 8th, 1974 to the St. Petersburg Times he wanted to fight Ali again. Ali just didnt want none of it. BTW, the WBC had ordered that Ali had to fight the #1 contender George Foreman, following the Norton fight (September 28th, 1976) within 90 days. This was stated in August 20th, 1976.

Also:

BOXING NEWS November 20th, 1976 (cover) "ALI AGREES TO FOREMAN REMATCH"

BOXING NEWS November 27th, 1976 (cover) "ALI RETIRES".

That dont tell you anything, then I dont know what will.

Again total nonsense. Foreman quit, not Ali. If Foreman would have kept fighting and winning , he would have been the #1 contender again and would have got another title shot. Instead Foreman didn't fight at all in 1975.
Foreman saying he wanted another title shot doesn't mean anything. Of course he wanted another title shot. Wanting a title shot and deserving one are two different things.

Ali was always saying he was going to retire, it doesn't mean anything. (fighters do that all of the time.) Magazine say stuff all the time as well that isn't true. There are always rumours of upcoming fights that don't happen. If Foreman would have beaten Young, he probably would have been in line. Ali did defend the title against the #1 contender (Norton) and thats all he was obliged to do.

The champion isn't obliged to fight anyone that isn't the top contender. If you aren't the #1 contender, you have no reason to complain if you don't get a title shot.

Ali beat the #1 contender in 1975, and the #1 contender in 1976. Stop the anti-Ali BS. It has gotton really old.

[HomicideHenry]

I'll shut up. At least guys over at ESB have more of an open mind, rather than a closed view on everything Ali.

[Collins2000]

I'll shut up. At least guys over at ESB have more of an open mind, rather than a closed view on everything Ali.

No, what you really mean Rupert is that there are more haters over there.

[HomicideHenry]

Ionos Collins. Remember BrocktonBlockbuster? He left this site for ESB over the same shit, cus nobody here would agree with anything. I wont leave like Brocky did, but still, its a damn shame.

[Syntax Error]

If Foreman really wanted to be in the picture to have a rematch with Ali, he'd have had a fight in 1975!

[Collins2000]

Ionos Collins. Remember BrocktonBlockbuster? He left this site for ESB over the same shit, cus nobody here would agree with anything. I wont leave like Brocky did, but still, its a damn shame.

No, he left because people wouldn't worship at the same alter as him

[The Great John L]

There really wasn't a great clamor for a rematch after Ali beat Foreman. There were so many other good HWs at the time and Ali kept interest being very busy. I didn't remember exactly the order so I checked, and after he beat Foreman, Ali fought Wepner, Lyle, Bugner and Frazier before Foreman even stepped back into the ring. And after Foreman "destroyed" Lyle, he was so beaten up that he had to take off some more time before beating an obese shell of Frazier about 6 months later. And while he was recouping from the "destruction" of Lyle, Ali fought Coopman, Young and Dunn and then he fought Norton later in the year before taking a break while Foreman walked over the three stooges before Young slapped him around.

I was no big Ali fan at the time, but George pretty much blew his chances by not being active enough, and also by not exactly endearing himself to fans. George was not the loveable guy we now know that peddled grilles and waddled around the ring knocking over bums. He was rather surly and really didn't have the fan base that Ali, Frazier and even Norton had at the time. And he also lost a lot of the publics respect with all the claims of being drugged, ropes being tampered with, etc after Ali beat him.

While a rematch would have been good, it could hardly be considered an injustice.

[Datsue]

Ionos Collins. Remember BrocktonBlockbuster? He left this site for ESB over the same shit, cus nobody here would agree with anything. I wont leave like Brocky did, but still, its a damn shame.

No, he left because people wouldn't worship at the same alter as him

We have our winner...!

[My2Sense]

It was both their faults.

Foreman chose to take a year or so off after losing to Ali (who seemed to be willing to give him a rematch at that time) and of course that cost him his #1 ranking.

Then Foreman made a comeback, beat Lyle and Frazier to put himself back atop the rankings and eventually make him a mandatory challenger. Now the situation was reversed, with Foreman calling for the fight and Ali seeming reluctant to take it. Ali basically kept putting the fight off, saying "One more fight...", until Foreman lost to Young and that was that.

[Ambling Alp]

At what point can you say Ali was ducking Foreman?
In 1975, Foreman didn't fight at all.
Obviously he wasn't the number #1 contender when he came back and shouldn't have been.
Ali beat the #1 contender in 1976. Foreman lost to Young in April of 1977. At no point could you say that Ali was "ducking" Foreman.

Homocidehenry said "BTW, the WBC had ordered that Ali had to fight the #1 contender George Foreman, following the Norton fight (September 28th, 1976) within 90 days. This was stated in August 20th, 1976."

Really? If that's true, then the WBC certainly changed their mind.
Why on earth should a contender be entitled to fight the winner of the champion and the #1 contender with in 90 days?

Is that fair? Should the champion have to defend the title against the #1 contender every 90 days? That 4 times a year. No other champion fighter in any weight class ever did that.
Why is Ali expected to Foreman so soon after he beat the # 1 contender?
You are supposed to get 12 months after beating the #1 contender to fight a #1 contender again.

Who else but Ali could beat #1 and #2 contender within 5 months and get accused of ducking someone?

[HomicideHenry]

It was both their faults.

Foreman chose to take a year or so off after losing to Ali (who seemed to be willing to give him a rematch at that time) and of course that cost him his #1 ranking.

Then Foreman made a comeback, beat Lyle and Frazier to put himself back atop the rankings and eventually make him a mandatory challenger. Now the situation was reversed, with Foreman calling for the fight and Ali seeming reluctant to take it. Ali basically kept putting the fight off, saying "One more fight...", until Foreman lost to Young and that was that.

About the most intelligent post I seen thus far.

[BoxBuzz]

Foreman always had a punchers chance, but you have to place the odds against him. He always had problems with a good slick style, almost any version of a good slick style. Peralta, Ali, Young.......If you didnt' stay put, you stood a chance. And if you didn't stay put and you were excellent....well George just didn't have an answer for that. The odds would not be in Foreman's favor in any rematch with Ali.

But your right about one thing, Young's equally (or Terap would say superior) slick style put an end to the drama. But it had nothing to do with any hesitation on Ali's part. It wasn't like Ali ever had a confidence problem....at least after the first Liston fight. From that point on whether it was because he was like the character that Peter Seller's played in "Being There" or whether on his own genuine merit, he always figured (and usually did) face and defeat anyone in front of him. Even if he had to come back a second time to get it right. He just did not see himself losing to another homo sapien. AND He did not run from a challenge. (Except for perhaps the battlefields of North Vietnman) It just was not what he was made of.

[Ambling Alp]

It was both their faults.

Foreman chose to take a year or so off after losing to Ali (who seemed to be willing to give him a rematch at that time) and of course that cost him his #1 ranking.

Then Foreman made a comeback, beat Lyle and Frazier to put himself back atop the rankings and eventually make him a mandatory challenger. Now the situation was reversed, with Foreman calling for the fight and Ali seeming reluctant to take it. Ali basically kept putting the fight off, saying "One more fight...", until Foreman lost to Young and that was that.

About the most intelligent post I seen thus far.

Again, give me the month and year when you could legitimately say Foreman had been the #1 contender long enough that it's clear that Ali was ducking him?

[Collins2000]

Foreman always had a punchers chance, but you have to place the odds against him. He always had problems with a good slick style, almost any version of a good slick style. Peralta, Ali, Young.......If you didnt' stay put, you stood a chance. And if you didn't stay put and you were excellent....well George just didn't have an answer for that. The odds would not be in Foreman's favor in any rematch with Ali.

But your right about one thing, Young's equally (or Terap would say superior) slick style put an end to the drama. But it had nothing to do with any hesitation on Ali's part. It wasn't like Ali ever had a confidence problem....at least after the first Liston fight. From that point on whether it was because he was like the character that Peter Seller's played in "Being There" or whether on his own genuine merit, he always figured (and usually did) face and defeat anyone in front of him. Even if he had to come back a second time to get it right. He just did not see himself losing to another homo sapien. AND He did not run from a challenge. (Except for perhaps the battlefields of North Vietnman) It just was not what he was made of.

North Vietnam?

Which US combat divisions fought in North Vietnam?

[BoxBuzz]

Foreman always had a punchers chance, but you have to place the odds against him. He always had problems with a good slick style, almost any version of a good slick style. Peralta, Ali, Young.......If you didnt' stay put, you stood a chance. And if you didn't stay put and you were excellent....well George just didn't have an answer for that. The odds would not be in Foreman's favor in any rematch with Ali.

But your right about one thing, Young's equally (or Terap would say superior) slick style put an end to the drama. But it had nothing to do with any hesitation on Ali's part. It wasn't like Ali ever had a confidence problem....at least after the first Liston fight. From that point on whether it was because he was like the character that Peter Seller's played in "Being There" or whether on his own genuine merit, he always figured (and usually did) face and defeat anyone in front of him. Even if he had to come back a second time to get it right. He just did not see himself losing to another homo sapien. AND He did not run from a challenge. (Except for perhaps the battlefields of North Vietnman) It just was not what he was made of.

North Vietnam?

Which US combat divisions fought in North Vietnam?

From what I heard he wasn't afraid of what was going on in the South, but he was greatly concerned about what might have happened had we started taking it to them further North.

Ok...Collins you got me on that one. Did I say NorthPaw? I meant BearClaw.

[Collins2000]

Foreman always had a punchers chance, but you have to place the odds against him. He always had problems with a good slick style, almost any version of a good slick style. Peralta, Ali, Young.......If you didnt' stay put, you stood a chance. And if you didn't stay put and you were excellent....well George just didn't have an answer for that. The odds would not be in Foreman's favor in any rematch with Ali.

But your right about one thing, Young's equally (or Terap would say superior) slick style put an end to the drama. But it had nothing to do with any hesitation on Ali's part. It wasn't like Ali ever had a confidence problem....at least after the first Liston fight. From that point on whether it was because he was like the character that Peter Seller's played in "Being There" or whether on his own genuine merit, he always figured (and usually did) face and defeat anyone in front of him. Even if he had to come back a second time to get it right. He just did not see himself losing to another homo sapien. AND He did not run from a challenge. (Except for perhaps the battlefields of North Vietnman) It just was not what he was made of.

North Vietnam?

Which US combat divisions fought in North Vietnam?

From what I heard he wasn't afraid of what was going on in the South, but he was greatly concerned about what might have happened had we started taking it to them further North.

Ok...Collins you got me on that one. Did I say NorthPaw? I meant BearClaw.

The 'acceptable' version of terap said the term we are scrabbling around for is 'pawpaw'.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

At what point can you say Ali was ducking Foreman?
In 1975, Foreman didn't fight at all.
Obviously he wasn't the number #1 contender when he came back and shouldn't have been.
Ali beat the #1 contender in 1976. Foreman lost to Young in April of 1977. At no point could you say that Ali was "ducking" Foreman.

- Classic case of convenient rationalized thinking. When you pound the squared peg into the round hole, why that's proof it was really a round peg all along!

Try to pay attention and follow the sequential events. Post fight Zaire, Ali is asked about rematch and threatens to retire. George ready to rerumble. Playboy interview months later and Ali admits he already has an offer of the largest purse in boxing history to that point, but is non committal as to his future, preferring to wax philosophical about life, politics and his place in boxing.

Meanwhile, as Ali "rebecame" the biggest sensation of the century, George, according to him, there is no other source available since he was so quickly dropped by the boxing establishment and media, George was busy going in and out of a funk, obsessing over the loss of his title and wanting to get it back. Don't recall if he ever mentions getting an offer in his year of meditation in the wilderness, but we know that fighters of this class routinely field many more offers than they ever accept, so it's reasonable to think he got offers, but we don't know what he was open to or what his promoter, KING would accept.

We do know he comes back with a huge splash, the big 5 consecutive fights exhibition in Canada to publicize his return and challenge to Ali as well as being featured on the cover of Sports Illustrated highlighting his challenge. Gauntlet is officially thrown by George, but Ali won't pick it up as the guest commentator for Cosell at the Canadian exhibition. He's fresh off wins over Wepner, Lyle, Bugner, and Frazier. We know that the 1st 3 were nowhere near #1, and each and everyone gave Ali a huge struggle. Frazier was coming off 2 losses in his last 5 to Ali and Foreman.

So, who are the fighters Ali faces in the period of George's comeback until his retirement? Rubs George's nose in it with Coopman, Young, Dunn and Norton. Young credible in retrospect but not sure if he was even ranked at that point, and Norton at top, and both rabidly disputed decisions. Seems pretty apparent that you needed not to be even a ranked fighter to fight Ali, but he does in his fashion take care of the top guy.

Enter 77 with a fight against Teo being considered as George has already knocked the snot out of the two guys who punched up Ali pretty good, Lyle and Frazier. He fights Agosto, why, not sure, only George and King know the reasons, and then Young in an "unofficial" eliminator and retires on the Young loss. Ali fights Evanglista a couple of months later, obviously not the top guy in the division, struggles, and then Shavers, again, not the top guy, and struggles.

Where did this notion that a fighter had to be top guy to fight Ali come from? All of these fights, even the Frazier fight weren't as big a money fight as what Ali claims was offered him in the Playboy interview. Out of the 8 fights Ali has before Foreman retires, 6, possibly 7 weren't against the top guy. After Foreman retires, 2 fights, none the top guy and on to 78, same deal, same struggle.

Forget about being #1, that has almost no bearing on who Ali fought, however, FACT: Foreman/Ali rematch was the biggest purse in boxing history to that point by all indications.

George ends up biting his tail off trying to chase it down. Maybe he could've done more to make it happen, he had 6 fights in a 15 month period. Maybe could've squeezed 7 or 8 in, or 9-10, fought Norton for free, had a 10 man exhibition, but I don't see that improving his chances of landing Ali. Clearly the press wanted it. George wanted it in every interview granted. Doesn't matter what the label is, Ali wasn't keen on the rematch for whatever reason.

I call it ducking, you can call it duking it out against other fighters, at any rate, the whole thing never even got to the stage of being called off.

[Ezzard]

Foreman should have gotten a rematch. Beating Lyle and Frazier was better than anything any of the other contenders did to get their shots.

Didn't Ali say he was retired in 76 only to later change his mind?

Ali did nothing that hasn't been done by a hundred other great fighters. I think he stalled the fight and eventually it went away when Foreman misjudged Young. Had George not gone into meltdown after losing that one he would have eventually got his shot and probably won (if we're thinking about the Ali in the Shavers fight).

Ducking is probably a bit strong. I think Foreman would have got the fight had he not retired BUT he should have got his shot. In the end the blame lies a little with both of them but probably more with George as his career is not Ali's responsibility.

[Ambling Alp]

Yes Ali did say he would retire in 1976. And he did after he beat Foreman in 1974. And he did after he beat Frazier in 1975. He said it all the time, like many fighters do.

If you just pretend that it's Champion X not fighting for Contender Y, then there is no reason to think the Champion was ducking a fighter who had been the top contender for such a short short time.

All the champion is obliged to do is fight the #1 contender once a year. If he wan't to fight lesser fighters as well, thats up to him.

However, since it's Ali we are talking about, people bend over backwards to find reasons to rip him when they wouldn't have done this with anyone else.
For example, Marciano went a 12 month period where the only fight he had was against Don Cockell. Where is the outrage about this?


Foreman didn't fight at all in 1975.
When he came back in 1976, he had to prove that deserved to be #1. Ali did fight the top contender (Norton) in 1976.

Foreman in April of 1977. Had he kept winning he was going to get a title shot.

[BoxBuzz]

If only Foreman had beaten Young, then we could be going over a completely different set of theoretical hypothetical imaginings. And of course maybe in that case there would have been an Ali Foreman II for us to discuss. And maybe Terap would not be singing the praises of Jimmy Young to quite such an extent. But it's all whimsical illusionary hobgobblery.

And what if the Patriots would have won that last ball game in that "Almost perfect" Season.

And another thing..... "if only politicians would do what they say they would do..... We'd all be drinkin' that free Bubble Up and a eatiin' that Rainbow Stew." (Merle Haggard)