George Foreman: Was Ali Ducking a Rematch?

[JC]

I think the simple answer is that he knew he would lose to Formen in a re-match and did'nt want to undermine the legacy and reputation that he got from that fight alone...

I still can't beleive how Foreman lost the first fight. People talk about "rope a dope", but the only dope that night was Foreman, because Ali was there for the taking IMO

What do you see Foreman doing differently in the second fight to what he did in the first, he was not the most adaptable fighter.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Okay, I just can't seem to find the moment to get into the swing of this, & now it's several pages long anyway, so I'll just condense my viewpoint into this...

They both share a large chunk of blame. Neither party is all that innocent in this tale.

[Ezzard]

I agree with GI.

I thought Ali verbally agreed to the rematch in 76 then announced his retirement, then came back against Evangelista?

Foreman by 76 had emphatic wins over 3 of the top 5 contenders.

I'm not polarised on this argument. George should have got the rematch without the need for the Young fight (and there are all kinds of theories on that fight). BUT Ali would have eventually given him the fight if he hadn't retired.

There are lots of ATG's who missed a fighter or who should have granted a rematch. It's hard to name one you can't name...

[Ambling Alp]

I still don't understand the relevance of Ali verbally retiring. I don't remember it, certainly it wasn't taken seriously. If it had been,than a tournament or elimination fight would have been set up and it wasn't.

It was March of 1977 that Foreman took on Young. So what if 2 months later Ali fought Evangelista?

Maybe Foreman shouldn't have fought Young. However it was his choice and he has to live with it. That's not Ali's problem.

What is wrong with a champion fighting a weak opponent as long as he is also fighting the top contenders?
Foreman himself defended the title against Jose Roman. Where is the outrage there?

Foreman was the top contender for a few months. So what.
Is Ali really expected to fight the #1 contender every 3 months?

Did Joe Louis fight the #1 contender every few months? No. Neither did just about every other heavyweight champion.

You can't seriously expect the champion to train for 10-12 weeks 4 times a year to fight the #1 contender. No one can and has done it.

Foreman didn't get a title shot after being the # contender for a few months. Big deal. Happens all the time.

Ali was the #1 contender for well over a year while Frazier was defending the title against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. Where is the outrage over this?

If this wasn't Ali, no one would take this seriously.

[The Great John L]

Ali used to mention retiring quite often, and given his schedule it's certainly understandable, although as I recall no one took him seriously.

And there are not many who lived through that period who felt that George had been ducked. George self destructed after the loss to Ali and was slapped around by Young while he was climbing out of his self dug whole. And there was certainly no huge public outcry for a rematch during this period. There were many magazine articles, but most boxing fans had a hard time taking him seriously after the embarrassing Toronto 5.

[Tantum]

Where's terap when you need him?

[HomicideHenry]

Ali was the #1 contender for well over a year while Frazier was defending the title against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. Where is the outrage over this?

If this wasn't Ali, no one would take this seriously.

It is pretty bad that Frazier chose Stander and Daniels over his #1 contender Ali. But the difference is, he did fight Ali, even if he did lose the crown to Foreman before doing so. By the time Foreman fought Frazier, the rankings were as follows:

Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Jimmy Ellis
Ron Lyle
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Jose Roman
Joe Bugner
Ken Norton
Jose Luis Garcia

So, yes, Frazier should be shamed as well. Hell, Daniels and Stander were nowhere in the top ten, yet he defended against them.

Also, according to RING magazine, in 1976 these were the top 10 men:

George Foreman
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young
Duane Bobick
Ron Lyle
Larry Holmes
Howard Smith
Johnny Boudreaux
Stan Ward
Joe Bugner

So, yeah, Ali's just as guilty, though, in all fairness, at least Ali defended the title by that time against 1975's #9 Chuck Wepner and Ron Lyle as well. Same could be said of Marciano, too, though the conviction may not be as great. Nino Valdes was the #1 contender for two years, and Marciano chose Cockell and Moore over the Cuban.

[HomicideHenry]

BUMP!!!

Where's Alp?

[Ezzard]

I still don't understand the relevance of Ali verbally retiring. I don't remember it, certainly it wasn't taken seriously. If it had been,than a tournament or elimination fight would have been set up and it wasn't.

It was March of 1977 that Foreman took on Young. So what if 2 months later Ali fought Evangelista?

Maybe Foreman shouldn't have fought Young. However it was his choice and he has to live with it. That's not Ali's problem.

What is wrong with a champion fighting a weak opponent as long as he is also fighting the top contenders?
Foreman himself defended the title against Jose Roman. Where is the outrage there?

Foreman was the top contender for a few months. So what.
Is Ali really expected to fight the #1 contender every 3 months?

Did Joe Louis fight the #1 contender every few months? No. Neither did just about every other heavyweight champion.

You can't seriously expect the champion to train for 10-12 weeks 4 times a year to fight the #1 contender. No one can and has done it.

Foreman didn't get a title shot after being the # contender for a few months. Big deal. Happens all the time.

Ali was the #1 contender for well over a year while Frazier was defending the title against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. Where is the outrage over this?

If this wasn't Ali, no one would take this seriously.

The thread is about whether Ali ducked Foreman. So if Ali says he's retired and then comes back to fight a poor contender then that is evidence. It's not conclusive at all but in trying to get to the bottom of whether he ducked him or not it's a fair talking point.

Lyle and Evangelista both got rewarded for losing fights with a shot at the title. Foreman had blow-out wins over Norton, Frazier and Lyle who all got shots. So, perhaps Foreman deserved a shot at the title (but that's a different question). He remained #1 contender for a while after losing the title, others have been granted immediate rematches...

Anyway... whilst I think all these points are valid I don't think Ali ducked him.

Let's not get back to a polarised forum. We can make critiques of almost every fighter. It's a free board. It's a fair question...I don't agree with it... but I'm willing to hear what others have got to say on it.

[Ambling Alp]

Ali was the #1 contender for well over a year while Frazier was defending the title against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander. Where is the outrage over this?

If this wasn't Ali, no one would take this seriously.

It is pretty bad that Frazier chose Stander and Daniels over his #1 contender Ali. But the difference is, he did fight Ali, even if he did lose the crown to Foreman before doing so. By the time Foreman fought Frazier, the rankings were as follows:

Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Jimmy Ellis
Ron Lyle
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Jose Roman
Joe Bugner
Ken Norton
Jose Luis Garcia

So, yes, Frazier should be shamed as well. Hell, Daniels and Stander were nowhere in the top ten, yet he defended against them.

Also, according to RING magazine, in 1976 these were the top 10 men:

George Foreman
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young
Duane Bobick
Ron Lyle
Larry Holmes
Howard Smith
Johnny Boudreaux
Stan Ward
Joe Bugner

So, yeah, Ali's just as guilty, though, in all fairness, at least Ali defended the title by that time against 1975's #9 Chuck Wepner and Ron Lyle as well. Same could be said of Marciano, too, though the conviction may not be as great. Nino Valdes was the #1 contender for two years, and Marciano chose Cockell and Moore over the Cuban.

The rankings you listed are year end rankings by Ring Magazine.
Foreman was #1 at the end of 1976, but during most of the year, Norton was. Ali fought Norton who was #1 at the time in September 28 of 1976.
Foreman didn't become #1 until after that fight in late September.

Foreman was only the #1 contender from the end of 1976 until early 1977. Only about 6 months.

Take at look at every heavyweight champion from John L. Sullivan to Ali. During every single title reign, there was a #1 contender who had to wait longer than the 6 months that Foreman was waiting. Name a heavyweight champion from Sullivan to Ali and I will tell you a #1 contender who had to wait longer than Foreman did, if he ever got a shot.

So there is no reason to be singling out Ali here.

Ezzard- It's clear Ali didn't really retire after fighting Norton. If he had, there would have been a tournament or elimination fight set up before Foreman fought Young.
As for the criticism of Ali that's fine if it's legitimate, which this case it's is clearly not. There is no gray area here. Ali didn't duck Foreman, period. If someone wants to point out his poor performances in the first Norton fight or the Lyle fight, fine.
Even that shouldn't be done a daily basis. Let's stop pretending that he doesn't get a ridiculaus amount of criticism on this forum.