Hang On a minute Here!!

[Carbo]

Are we all not just a bit guilty of jumping the gun here?

Yes Ricky was beaten but let's get one or 2 things in perspective before we are all screaming for him to retire and shouting he's shot to bits / or crap.

1. ANYBODY can get caught. That is boxing. Ricky got caught very early in the fight and was never able to recover. Was he over eager? Probably. Did he neglect his defence? Probably.
BUT... a boxer needs to warm up to it and Ricky simply never got the chance. He was caught cold early on and that's that.
It's happened before to big name fighters and you know what? It will happen again. That's what this sport is about!

2. He's crap. He lost to Mayweather and got sparked by Pac. He's crap he was never any good! Woooaahhh there boys.
Yes he lost to Maywether. Hmmm, Who hasn't?
Yes he was caught out by Pacs speed and power. Hmmm who hasn't been.

Would you rather he never took these fights in the first place?
It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all!

Admittedly Hatton has been matched extremely well in his career but, he still has to get the win.
Just like Man U are playing Wigan or Fulham etc, yes there easy games for them but, they still have to win them.

Hatton should sit down and reavaluate his career.

BUT last nights result does not mean he's shot. Was it a bad performance and niave? You betch ya!

Anyway, you have to admit.... Pac is awesome!

Great post.

Getting beaten by those two doesn't mean you're not elite or world class; it just means you're not one of the best fighters of your generation (or all time).

Hatton was carefully matched, note the lack of punchers in their ptime on his record and lack of young fresh fast guys with ambition and power.

He has had 3 fights hat he was not favoutite to win, 3 out of 40 plus fights and he is 1-2 and kncked ot in 2 of them.

If the KT fights was not in England he would not have been allowed to wrestle the way he did.

2 fights against Prime Elite fighters and he was destroyed in both and hardly landed a punch in 12 rounds.

Never prepared to beat the best, after he lost to PBF he fought 'Lazcano and PM?? - how did that prepare him for Pacman?

He won world titles against KT - good win against a past it fighter.

He beat Maussa - Urango and Collazo for belts when he could have easly fought 'Witter - Cotto - SSM - Judah - Holt - Torres - Bradley - Margarito etc, he took the easy route before KT then after KT he continued that way.

He fought 2 prime elite fighters ad was beaten easliy in both of them.

Outclassed.

Hatton is has fought three elite fighters and won one out of those three. The two he lost were against all time greats -- kind of super-elite guys. Hatton also fought against one elite fighter who was past his prime and seemingly on the slide, and that was Castillo.

[DG.]

Hatton has shown in the past that he does have punch resistence. Now,
It MAY be that Hatton's resistence has plunged, but you have NO POINT OF REFERENCE to carry this point if we're using logic in any form.

The wear and tear on Hatton has contributed to his 'resistance' being ground down to not much on the World Stage.

Pacman has not stretched anyone out like that before, 7 years since he had a quick win like that.

If Hatton had the resistance he had pre KT then he would ave ;asted until the later rounds.





Carbo do you read my posts?

I stated WHY Hatton has lost his punch resistance. I have xome to the conclusion that you can not read .

Not very bright? Me?

Your poor deluded bastard.

[DG.]

Hatton is has fought three elite fighters and won one out of those three. The two he lost were against all time greats -- kind of super-elite guys. Hatton also fought against one elite fighter who was past his prime and seemingly on the slide, and that was Castillo.

Castillo was a very good foghter, 5 years before hatton fought him.


Now we have a nEw level SUPER ELITE?

You are deluded.

So. SRL is SUPER DUPER BOOPER LOOPER?

You should invent ANOTHER title for the WBC

[Carbo]

Hatton has shown in the past that he does have punch resistence. Now,
It MAY be that Hatton's resistence has plunged, but you have NO POINT OF REFERENCE to carry this point if we're using logic in any form.

The wear and tear on Hatton has contributed to his 'resistance' being ground down to not much on the World Stage.

Pacman has not stretched anyone out like that before, 7 years since he had a quick win like that.

If Hatton had the resistance he had pre KT then he would ave ;asted until the later rounds.





Carbo do you read my posts?

I stated WHY Hatton has lost his punch resistance. I have xome to the conclusion that you can not read .

Not very bright? Me?

Your poor deluded bastard.

No, no. Again, you're missing the point.

You can make an argument for it, but you can't present it as fact, because the only frame of reference you have is that one fight.

It's just as plausible, based on that one fight, to say the Pacquiao punch was perfect -- or that 140 maximizes his strenght and speed like no other division -- as it is to say that Hatton has no punch resistence.

You're thinking about this from an argument point of view, but you need to look at the actual logic.

OK, let me try to explain it by analogy. I usually hate to do this, because people always pick holes in the analogy, or think of their own, less valid analogy, and one ends up having an argument of analogies, but I just want to demonstrate how you're missing my point.

Let's say Usain Bolt races on a new track, and runs a slow time. We may make an argument that he is passed his prime, or we may say that that particular track was just slow. Now, each might be well argued, but without seeing Bolt race again, on a track which has known qualities, or without seeing other top sprinters race on the new track, we can't make that judgement.

You can't say that Hatton's chin is shot, you can just make an educated guess. I would argue that it's not too educated looking at the way that final punch landed (I have rarely seen such perfection or power) and how open Hatton was compared to Pacquiao's recent foes -- but either way, and even if I agreed with you, it's STILL A GUESS, because you don't have enough points of reference to make that argument convincingly.

Like I said, I would have no problem if all you did was present it as an opinion -- but you don't: you defend it as FACT, which requires a whole different level of justification, on the meta-level, to carry the case.

[Carbo]

Hatton is has fought three elite fighters and won one out of those three. The two he lost were against all time greats -- kind of super-elite guys. Hatton also fought against one elite fighter who was past his prime and seemingly on the slide, and that was Castillo.

Castillo was a very good foghter, 5 years before hatton fought him.


Now we have a nEw level SUPER ELITE?

You are deluded.

So. SRL is SUPER DUPER BOOPER LOOPER?

You should invent ANOTHER title for the WBC

I'm sorry, I don't recognise many of the words there, but the point is that if we look at the current elite, the pound for pound top ten, lets say -- which is a pretty damn high level to set for elitep4p top thirty would be more realistic -- are you really saying that Vic Darchinyan, Celestino Caballero or Rafael Marquez are on the same level are Mayweather or Paqcuiao?? Are you REALLY SAYING THAT? Now, Caballero would certainly be considered elite, unless you have the most ridiculously high bar for "elite" in the history of the world ever, but I seriously doubt people would consider him a figure who transcends his own time and qualifies as elite from ANY ERA. It's the difference between, say Cuevas and Duran, you see.

Now, I’m not trying to invent extra levels, but if you can’t see that Mayweather and Pacquiao were the elite of the elite when Hatton took them on, guys who don’t just figure in arguments relating to pound for pound today, but pound for pound ever, then you really don’t know your boxing.

Try this as a thought experiement: What if Hatton had won both matches? We would be talking about the guy as not just elite, but one of the GREATS EVER.

Hatton doesn't have to win these matches to be considered elite. Marquez held him close, but Marquez is the perfect stlye to counter Paqcuaio and is also an all time (not just current) great. You know, Tommy Hearns was KTFO against Leonard, but it didn't make him "non elite". Benitez lost to both Hearns and Leonard, but likewise, he was just an elite guy who came short against men who weren't just elite in their own era, but elite compared to every great fighter in history.

[DG.]

In the sport of Boxing we have the p4p fighters list, the elite fighters in some peoples minds.

We have a ranking of 1-10 in the P4P TOP 10.

1 Mayweather
2 JMM
3 Pacman etc

In their own divisions Caballero etc are the elite - but put them up agaisnt PBF and JMM they are lower down the list in the P4P top 10 - te rankings of the elite in the sport.

As for Hatton and his punch resistance, I have watched the fight at least 15 times, Hatton was more shaken through that fight than Diaz was after taking several hard shots from Pacman, as soon as Hatton was even 1/2 clipped he was down.

The finisher was a great shot, but Pacman has never knocked anyone out like that, ever.

Against KT Hatton took harder shots and against Vince Philips - after all the wars making weoiht and being punched, Hatton has lost a lot of his resistance. He can take domestic level punches, but not World Class punches.

There is no Super Elite - the P4P is made up of the elite - 1-10.



Hatton is no Thomas Hearns.

Watch SRL Vs Leonard 1 to be sure of that!
Watch Duran Vs Hearns to see that.
Watch how Hearns and Hagler went at it.

My knowledge of the sport is better than your knowledge.

[Carbo]

In the sport of Boxing we have the p4p fighters list, the elite fighters in some peoples minds.

We have a ranking of 1-10 in the P4P TOP 10.

1 Mayweather
2 JMM
3 Pacman etc

In their own divisions Caballero etc are the elite - but put them up agaisnt PBF and JMM they are lower down the list in the P4P top 10 - te rankings of the elite in the sport.

What the hell does that mean? That second sentence is meaningless.

The point is that Hatton went up not just against two elite fighters, but against two all time greats. You must concede that there's a difference between fighting Castillo at light weight (who was elite there for a time) and fighting Duran there. Again, you must concede that there's a difference between a 122lb fighter facing someone of Caballero's quality (elite) and a 140 pound fighter facing Floyd Mayweather Jr. Surely you must.

As for Hatton and his punch resistance, I have watched the fight at least 15 times, Hatton was more shaken through that fight than Diaz was after taking several hard shots from Pacman, as soon as Hatton was even 1/2 clipped he was down.

The finisher was a great shot, but Pacman has never knocked anyone out like that, ever.

Against KT Hatton took harder shots and against Vince Philips - after all the wars making weoiht and being pnched, Hatton has lost a lot of his resistance. He can tke domestov level ounches, but not World Class punches.

You see, you've just IGNORED my point again.

It's just as valid, based on the points of reference we have, to say that Pacquiao is intrinsicly more powerful at 140, where he does not have to cut weight, than he is at 135, where he does, as it is to say that Hatton is shot.

Look: Hatton showed no real signs of losing his punch resistence before this fight, he hasn't fought again, so we have no idea how he would stand up to punches from a different opponent. All we know is that he was clocked several times on the chin by a known heavy hitter, the last of which, was perfect.

You can argue all you want, but, unfortunately, if you know ANYTHING about logical argument, and have the kind of brain that can look beyond your own nose and into the issue of logic, you can't say that Hatton's punch resistence is gone and call it fact. You can construct a case for it, but a weak one.

[Carbo]

Hatton is no Thomas Hearns.

Watch SRL Vs Leonard 1 to be sure of that!
Watch Duran Vs Hearns to see that.
Watch how Hearns and Hagler went at it.

My knowledge of the sport is better than your knowledge.

But when did I compare Hatton to Hearns? I've seen all three of those fights. But I also know that Benitez was an elite fighter, DESPITE losing to Hearns and Leonard. By your standards, Benitez was a bum who was knocked out by a jab and never belonged at elite level.

So what's your point -- expect to make inane, groundless statements designed to deliberately infuriate those who wish to have a sensible argument?

[DG.]

Hatton is no Thomas Hearns.

Watch SRL Vs Leonard 1 to be sure of that!
Watch Duran Vs Hearns to see that.
Watch how Hearns and Hagler went at it.

My knowledge of the sport is better than your knowledge.

But when did I compare Hatton to Hearns? I've seen all three of those fights. But I also know that Benitez was an elite fighter, DESPITE losing to Hearns and Leonard.

So what's your point -- expect to make inane, groundless statements designed to deliberately infuriate those who wish to have a sensible argument?

You made the point that Hearns was knocked out but it did not make him less then 'elite'.

Hatton has nothing like Hearns Vs Hagler - Hearns Vs Duran or Hearns Vs SRL on his record.

Without those fights then maybe Hearns getting knocked out would mean he was less than elite.

Hatton has been knocked out twice and outclassed at the elite level.

Hatton has no other victories to tell he he is elite.

As for the 2nd sentence, I have to make thngs very simple for you - P4P Top 10 is a list of 10 fighters.

Accept it, Hatton is not elite and there is no Super Elite.

Hatton is a B Level fighter.

[Carbo]

There is no Super Elite - the P4P is made up of the elite - 1-10.

Mwwwwaaahahahahaha

I've just noticed this. HHHHAAAAAAA hahahahaha.

You're now saying that elite is only the pound for pound top ten.

SO, David Haye, I suppose isn't fighting an elite heavyweight. And there are really no elite middleweights or light middleweights.

Perhaps it is true that empty vessels make the most noise.

[DG.]

There is no Super Elite - the P4P is made up of the elite - 1-10.

Mwwwwaaahahahahaha

I've just noticed this. HHHHAAAAAAA hahahahaha.

You're now saying that elite is only the pound for pound top ten.

SO, David Haye, I suppose isn't fighting an elite heavyweight. And there are really no elite middleweights or light middleweights.

Perhaps it is true that empty vessels make the most noise.

Read my words.

When ranked against their OWN DIVISIONS - fighters can be the best or ELITE in that division, but when ranked against other champions,the P4P list, they may not get the same high ranking.

The best fighters matched against the best, that is the P4P list.

Are you drunk?

[Carbo]

Hatton is no Thomas Hearns.

Watch SRL Vs Leonard 1 to be sure of that!
Watch Duran Vs Hearns to see that.
Watch how Hearns and Hagler went at it.

My knowledge of the sport is better than your knowledge.

But when did I compare Hatton to Hearns? I've seen all three of those fights. But I also know that Benitez was an elite fighter, DESPITE losing to Hearns and Leonard.

So what's your point -- expect to make inane, groundless statements designed to deliberately infuriate those who wish to have a sensible argument?

You made the point that Hearns was knocked out but it did not make him less then 'elite'.

Hatton has nothing like Hearns Vs Hagler - Hearns Vs Duran or Hearns Vs SRL on his record.

Yes, cabbage-brain, because they were fights between all time greats.

Hatton is best thought of as an elite fighter in his weight class who fell short against all time greats.

Like Benitez. I would guess that Benitez's win against Cervantez (spelling?) is roughly analagous to Hatton's win against Tszyu, who was a top 10 (maybe top 5) all time 140 lb-er. Benitez's losses to Hearns and Leonard were roughly analagous to Hatton's against MAyweather and Paqciao. Benitez got KO-ed off a jab against Leonard (I seem to remember) and Hatton against a nasty little check hook on the counter he didn't see coming. Of course, NBenitez lasted the course against Hearns, but Hearns was in jab and move mode, rather than seek and destroy mood for that fight.

But, by YOUR reckoning, there would be VERY few elite fighters in history.

[Carbo]

There is no Super Elite - the P4P is made up of the elite - 1-10.

Mwwwwaaahahahahaha

I've just noticed this. HHHHAAAAAAA hahahahaha.

You're now saying that elite is only the pound for pound top ten.

SO, David Haye, I suppose isn't fighting an elite heavyweight. And there are really no elite middleweights or light middleweights.

Perhaps it is true that empty vessels make the most noise.

Read my words.

When ranked against their OWN DIVISIONS - fighters can be the best or ELITE in that division, but when ranked against other champions,the P4P list, they may not get the same high ranking.

So, a fighter can be considered both elite and not elite, is what you're saying?

[DG.]

Carbo,

I never thought I would say this, as I love the sport, but now I am bored.

Cabbage brain?

You have no knowledge of the sport, and for that I am very sorry.

Not every champion in a division makes the p4p top 10, there are more than 10 divisions, but I doubt you know that.


As for your 'fighter can be elite and not elite' comment

It's like being the best in Europe - but when matched against the best in the world, you might not even get into the top 10.

[MR UNTOUCHABLE]

I have to say all of this 'shot/crap/no resistance' talk is UTTER GARBAGE.

Listen very carefully:

Boxers can be knocked out!!

It happens. It's part of the sport.

A boxer get's ko'd by probably the 1st or 2nd best boxer of this generation and you are all stunned.

WHY?

Pac is a very big puncher, huge in fact. He started as a puncher and he'll finish as one. Very few can carry their punch up through the weights. HE CAN! It's simple.

He's incredibly fast. Probably as fast as anyone I can remember watching.

He is a very strong man mentally. he goes all out from the 1st to the last.

Put all of this together and where doed the suprise come from?

It's boxing. Someone wins & someone loses. Sometimes on poins, sometimes by stoppage and sometimes by a KO. It happens.

If Hatton had caught Pac with a body shot in the 2nd. Should he retire??

If pac catches Mayweather in the 1st, will everyone be screaming RETIRE RETIRE. Will they billyo!!

Did everyone scream for Corrales & Castillo to retire after their 1st contest? Did you? No I though not. And believe me, those 2 took more punishment in that 1st fight than Hatton did in the Pac & Mayweather fights.

I'm not really even a big Hatton fan, but this is just people talking about something they have either no knowledge of or are just trying to make cruel and snide comments.

[DG.]

Hatton is not as resilent as he once was, he needs to retire.


My opinion.

[Carbo]

Carbo,

I never thought I would say this, as I love the sport, but now I am bored.

Cabbage brain?

You have no knowledge of the sport, and for that I am very sorry.

Not every champion in a division makes the p4p top 10, there are more than 10 divisions, but I doubt you know that.

So you give in?

MY point is that you have no evidence that can justify ssaying Hatton's chin has gone, other than conjecture. You have a (weak) agument, but not a fact. Second, there is a difference between your elites and your all time greats. Kid Gavilan -- elite; Sugar Ray Robinson -- something more; Castillo at 135 -- elite; Duran at 135 -- something more.

Now, if you want to get into semantics, and call those all time greats "elite" and call what I would call elites "B-Level" then I would say that Hatton most certainly does not belong there.

But then that's just semantics. You can call it a banana for all I care.

Now, since you've given up, I'll go and do some work, and you should be finishing your homework.

[Carbo]

I have to say all of this 'shot/crap/no resistance' talk is UTTER GARBAGE.

Listen very carefully:

Boxers can be knocked out!!

It happens. It's part of the sport.

A boxer get's ko'd by probably the 1st or 2nd best boxer of this generation and you are all stunned.

WHY?

Pac is a very big puncher, huge in fact. He started as a puncher and he'll finish as one. Very few can carry their punch up through the weights. HE CAN! It's simple.

He's incredibly fast. Probably as fast as anyone I can remember watching.

He is a very strong man mentally. he goes all out from the 1st to the last.

Put all of this together and where doed the suprise come from?

It's boxing. Someone wins & someone loses. Sometimes on poins, sometimes by stoppage and sometimes by a KO. It happens.

If Hatton had caught Pac with a body shot in the 2nd. Should he retire??

If pac catches Mayweather in the 1st, will everyone be screaming RETIRE RETIRE. Will they billyo!!

Did everyone scream for Corrales & Castillo to retire after their 1st contest? Did you? No I though not. And believe me, those 2 took more punishment in that 1st fight than Hatton did in the Pac & Mayweather fights.

I'm not really even a big Hatton fan, but this is just people talking about something they have either no knowledge of or are just trying to make cruel and snide comments.

Thank you.

[DG.]

Carbo,

I never thought I would say this, as I love the sport, but now I am bored.

Cabbage brain?

You have no knowledge of the sport, and for that I am very sorry.

Not every champion in a division makes the p4p top 10, there are more than 10 divisions, but I doubt you know that.

So you give in?

MY point is that you have no evidence that can justify ssaying Hatton's chin has gone, other than conjecture. You have an agument, but not a fact. Second, there is a difference between your elites and your all time greats. Kid Gavilan -- elite; Sugar Ray Robinson -- something more; Castillo at 135 -- elite; Duran at 135 -- something more.

Now, if you want to get into semantics, and call those all time greats "elite" and call what I would call elites "B-Level" then I would say that Hatton most certainly does not belong there.

But then that's just semantics. You can call it a banana for all I care.

Now, since you've given up, I'll go and do some work, and you should be finishing your homework.

Give in?



Never write a book, you are boring me to tears.

You can be elite in Europe, but on the world stage you can be a b-level fighter.

Even you can understand that. I hope.

[Carbo]

Carbo,

I never thought I would say this, as I love the sport, but now I am bored.

Cabbage brain?

You have no knowledge of the sport, and for that I am very sorry.

Not every champion in a division makes the p4p top 10, there are more than 10 divisions, but I doubt you know that.

So you give in?

MY point is that you have no evidence that can justify ssaying Hatton's chin has gone, other than conjecture. You have an agument, but not a fact. Second, there is a difference between your elites and your all time greats. Kid Gavilan -- elite; Sugar Ray Robinson -- something more; Castillo at 135 -- elite; Duran at 135 -- something more.

Now, if you want to get into semantics, and call those all time greats "elite" and call what I would call elites "B-Level" then I would say that Hatton most certainly does not belong there.

But then that's just semantics. You can call it a banana for all I care.

Now, since you've given up, I'll go and do some work, and you should be finishing your homework.

Give in?



Never write a book, you are boring me to tears.

You can be elite in Europe, but on the world stage you can be a b-level fighter.

Even you can understand that. I hope.

Well, I suspect that I wouldn't need to crank up the intellectual level too far for your eyes to glaze over.

But, ok, let's take your definition, by which we would need to have elites for each level. You know, European elite, P4P elite, B-Level elite, Southern Area elite.

It's risible. There is no such thing as "European elite"! That's preposterous. What we do have is a "European level". But not European elite, any more than than there is a Northern Area elite or a B-level elite.

You're really making yourself look like a plonker.

[alexpaterson]

He was a decent fighter in his prime but just couldnt get to the great level its just like Jim Watt said before the fight his defence has never been the best but its his attack that got him to his level

[DG.]

You're really making yourself look like a plonker.

You really try to hard to appear bright, you are not.

I do not have to prove anything to you, I am comfortable with my things, plus I most lkely earn more than you, I bet that worries you!

Get back to work, you intellectual you!

[Carbo]

You're really making yourself look like a plonker.

You really try to hard to appear bright, you are not.

I do not have to prove anything to you, I am comfortable with my things, plus I most lkely earn more than you, I bet that worries you!

Get back to work, you intellectual you!

So, now you're completely ignoring the argument and resorting to pure Ad Hominum attacks.

Of course, I've indulged in such tactics my self, but always as part of an argument.

The consession has arrived, I guess.

And I am bright -- no two ways about it.

Smarter than the av-er-age bear.

[BABY BLUE]

i agree with quixall aswell

i hope he retires , the only big money making fight for hatton is khan

but hatton is not short of money

yeah but what would khan achieve by fighting hatton. yeah it boost his name in the states other than .that prob money.

[DG.]

Well, I suspect that I wouldn't need to crank up the intellectual level too far for your eyes to glaze over.

But, ok, let's take your definition, by which we would need to have elites for each level. You know, European elite, P4P elite, B-Level elite, Southern Area elite.

It's risible. There is no such thing as "European elite"! That's preposterous. What we do have is a "European level". But not European elite, any more than than there is a Northern Area elite or a B-level elite.

You're really making yourself look like a plonker.

You dumb bastard.

Ever heard of the phrase 'Big fish in a small pond?

Howard Eastman ruled Europe for ages and was head and shoulders above his domestic rivals.

You could call him the elite of the European fighters.

Danny Williams ruled the British Heavy scene for years, you could call him the King of the British Heavies, or the elite of the British Heavies.

Are you drunk?

Hatton in the MEN was a big fish in a small pond.

In the big p4p pond, he was really a small fish.