Prime Foreman VS. Prime Mike Tyson

[harley_man]

Ok, in a vacuum, time-warp, whatever, Tyson and Foreman would have torn up the same opposition as they ascended through the ranks, carving out fearsome reputations along the way.

As for Tyson's mentality, it would not be an issue if we're talking about '86-'88 Tyson. By most accounts (including Rooney, who would later split bitterly) he was a joy to work with - focussed, determined, pleasant. The interesting intanglibles are post-'88 - the Robin Givens fiasco, coupled with Jacobs death, and the influence of Don King. Even with all these distractions he still unified the titles, fought all comers and after his longest stretch of inactivity (8months) destroyed Michael Spinks in the biggest fight of his career. Would our fantasy vacuum eliminate these distractions?

Now, it may sound like I'm defending Tyson. But all I'm doing is giving this fantasy Foreman more credit. I think he still carried the bigger stick and his punches would have taken their toll. I think we would have seen a Douglas result - even from a prime Tyson - that much earlier in his career. Regardless of Tyson's speed, bobbing and weaving and, yes, cool headedness.

[dempseyfire]

Tyson by KO EASILY. Foreman is so damn overrated its ridiculous. Foremans record is built on beating old ex-light heavies. Tysons record is built on destroying guys twice his size and making it look easy. Its just a good thing they never met during their comebacks or Tyson would have gone to jail for manslaughter.

His biggest win is Peralta??? What are you smoking? And Tyson exactly didn't 'destroy' the skilled big men he fought (Tucker, Smith, and obviously Douglas). ESPN Classic showed some young George fights last night and his jab was KILLER-quick and hard as a rock. The only fighters who Tyson fought who had comparable jabs was Thomas (came into fight injured and still was giving Tyson all sorts of trouble until KO) Douglas (lost) and Lewis (lost).

[dan1030]

Good points of Tyson being a bit over-hyped against big men. If you ask me, he was damn lucky Tucker broke his hand in their fight, 'cause the first round and a half didn't look at all good for Mike. Even with only one good hand after the second Tucker didn't get blown out.

[Marciano Frazier]

Tyson by early ko.

Tyson too quick, too powerful and yes, too strong.

If Lyle could put Foreman down, Tyson would keep him there.

But if Buster Douglas could knock Tyson OUT, Foreman somehow couldn't?

[babulous]

Foreman had a great jab and uppercut. Add in his phenomenal power, and Tyson is toast.
Got any examples of a prime T

If you go as late as the first Razor Ruddock fight, which I'd argue is not prime Tyson anyway, Tyson swallowed some monster shots from a guy with very good KO power. Now, Ruddock was by that time totally one dimensional (worst thing to happen to that guy was to discover he could punch - goodbye boxing skills) and is a poor comparison to prime George - my apologies, boxing gods. Regardless, Tyson had to have some questions about his ability to withstand those shots, dispersed though they were over rounds. But he seemed content to wade back in time and again.

It seems to me it wasn't until Holyfield that Tyson wilted under pressure. A younger, undefeated Tyson might not have had that mind set against a contemporary Foreman.

Thoughts?

I feel that Larry holmes had a much better jab( when he fought Tyson) then Foreman had in his prime, Tyson destroyed him. Ruddick had a similar style like Foreman but w/ a much weaker chin. Tyson in his prime would have fought a good battle w/ Foreman, but Tyson was much smarter and more skilled than a prime Foreman. End result, Foreman would have tired his self out and Tyson would have landed one of them bombs, tko 4 tyson in the 7th round.

[dempseyfire]

Foreman had a great jab and uppercut. Add in his phenomenal power, and Tyson is toast.
Got any examples of a prime T

If you go as late as the first Razor Ruddock fight, which I'd argue is not prime Tyson anyway, Tyson swallowed some monster shots from a guy with very good KO power. Now, Ruddock was by that time totally one dimensional (worst thing to happen to that guy was to discover he could punch - goodbye boxing skills) and is a poor comparison to prime George - my apologies, boxing gods. Regardless, Tyson had to have some questions about his ability to withstand those shots, dispersed though they were over rounds. But he seemed content to wade back in time and again.

It seems to me it wasn't until Holyfield that Tyson wilted under pressure. A younger, undefeated Tyson might not have had that mind set against a contemporary Foreman.

Thoughts?

I feel that Larry holmes had a much better jab( when he fought Tyson) then Foreman had in his prime, Tyson destroyed him. Ruddick had a similar style like Foreman but w/ a much weaker chin. Tyson in his prime would have fought a good battle w/ Foreman, but Tyson was much smarter and more skilled than a prime Foreman. End result, Foreman would have tired his self out and Tyson would have landed one of them bombs, tko 4 tyson in the 7th round.

Razor Ruddock is a bad comparison-he wasn't as fast, tough, or versatile as Foreman in his prime.

Holmes in 1988 still had a snappy jab but was not nearly as accurate or active with the jab in that fight as he was in say 1978. Prime Foreman's jab was not only fast but HARD. Much harder then Larrys. Foreman's jab could knock any guy off of his game plan. The major reason I feel that Ali beat Foreman in Zaire was that Foreman for the most part competly ignored the jab, which before was a MAJOR part of his arsenal.

[Thinking_Hard]

Of course Foreman forgot his jab against Ali. Ali manipulated Foreman into using all his energy early(very smart in my opinion). I think if Foreman had got a come-back shot with Ali. That Foreman would have beaten him the second time around. This time haveing learned his lesson. It would still be one hell of a fight. I just think Foreman would have come out on top in a second confrontation. In my opinion.

[Eric the Viking]

Prime Foreman's jab was not only fast but HARD. Much harder then Larrys. Foreman's jab could knock any guy off of his game plan. The major reason I feel that Ali beat Foreman in Zaire was that Foreman for the most part competly ignored the jab, which before was a MAJOR part of his arsenal.

Good points. That's one of the reasons the rope-a-dope was so ingenious - Ali conned Foreman into ignoring fundamentals and just whaling away. Of course very few heavyweights in history could have taken the punishment that Foreman did dish out before running out of gas and still been able to return heavy, accurate fire during the lulls in the assault. To extend the military analogy, it was Foreman's imprecise saturation bombing vs. Ali's laser-guided munitions in that fight.

[dempseyfire]

Prime Foreman's jab was not only fast but HARD. Much harder then Larrys. Foreman's jab could knock any guy off of his game plan. The major reason I feel that Ali beat Foreman in Zaire was that Foreman for the most part competly ignored the jab, which before was a MAJOR part of his arsenal.

Good points. That's one of the reasons the rope-a-dope was so ingenious - Ali conned Foreman into ignoring fundamentals and just whaling away. Of course very few heavyweights in history could have taken the punishment that Foreman did dish out before running out of gas and still been able to return heavy, accurate fire during the lulls in the assault. To extend the military analogy, it was Foreman's imprecise saturation bombing vs. Ali's laser-guided munitions in that fight.

Exactly. Not to take away from Ali, cause' he fought a great fight.
But when people who only saw Foreman from the countless re-airings of the Rumble in the Jungle judge him, they haven't really seen the real 1970s George Foreman.
I think another problem George had in reference to his jab was that he had gotten SO confident about his punching power, he believed he didn't even need to set up his punches anymore-just flail away and they'd all fall down. And considering he'd just KO'd Norton and Frazier in two rounds apiece, I can understand where he got that big head.

[IronMikeTyson]

If Tyson came out and just tried to bomb away at it with Foreman, I don't know if he'd win. I mean, watch Foreman's fight with Holyfield from 1991. He got the living piss pounded out of him and he kept coming back for more and more, and this was against a PRIME Holyfield and Foreman was in his 40s. Imagine what he could take in his glory days. But, if Tyson came out and tried to box smart and used his quickness and agility to his advantage, I think he'd tire Foreman out. Foreman was sucking big wind against Ali after the third round in their fight, and Ali wasn't even trying to get away from him or anything.

[KOJOE90]

Another reason I think that Foreman would have beaten Tyson is because Tyson has never been able to fight on the back foot. I believe that Foreman had the strength and power to force Tyson onto the back foot.

Once this happened Tyson would be in trouble.

[zslayton]

Mike worked by intimidating fighters before the fight. That wouldn't work with George. He is bigger, and was just as mean as a prime Tyson.

Tyson would come in bombing and George would hit him with a hard jab then straight right hand. BANG! Tyson goes to sleep.

The way I see that fight going is the same way the Foreman/Frazier fight went, or in a worst case scenario the Foreman/Lyle fight. Either way, George knocks him out.

[Jaclem]

...so much discussion over an obvious result...foreman by kayo.

now that that's taken care of, let's go on to something else.

[Sweet Scientist]

Foreman - Foreman - Foreman....there's your winner if they fought three times....

[Sweet Scientist]

...and...if Mike ever bit George's ear...I'd fear for Tyson's life....

[jezzamundo]

Foreman, Tyson's style is perfect for him. Foreman was only ever KO'd late while exhausted, and I don't think Tyson could last long enough to do that. He would take a lot of big punches and deteriorate to be KO'd in the middle to late rounds.

The fighter I'd give the best chance of beating a prime Foreman, is of course a prime Ali (he did it past his prime IMO) followed by a prime Lennox Lewis. Plus Foreman ranks Lewis ahead of himself in terms of all time greats. I don't think Foreman would enjoy fighting someone at least as strong as himself, who is taller, has longer reach, and faster hands. Mind you, if Lewis wasn't using his jab properly (as he often didn't) Foreman would likely KO him.

[elmersalsa]

...so much discussion over an obvious result...foreman by kayo.

now that that's taken care of, let's go on to something else.

I agree with you. Foreman was too big and too strong. Probably the stongest heavyweight of all time. People and some boxing writers make Foreman of a LIMITED or DUMB FIGHTER, but when I saw his early bouts, I saw a George Foreman that was more intelligent than what the boxing writers have given him credit for. He had that potent left jab. Tyson was suceptible to jabs even when he used his peek-a-boo style of bobbing and weaving. Foreman could also hold your left arm with the glove and then give you jab right there-boom!!! He was a very smart fighter if you ask me. He KO'd Ken norton with only one hand--two right uppercuts!!!

Winner: George Foreman by KO in a classic!!! TU:

[knockout artist]

Tyson by early ko.

Tyson too quick, too powerful and yes, too strong.

If Lyle could put Foreman down, Tyson would keep him there.

Disagree. Lyle was BIG heavyweight, whereas Foreman would've had a major height and reach advantage over Tyson. And note that prime Tyson's win over the past-his-prime, out-for-2-years Holmes says nothing about how he would've fared vs. prime Foreman, who had the same kind of aura of invincibility as prime Tyson, but had it in spades, along with the imposing physical presence and Listonesque surliness (which George deliberatley cultivated from his sometime mentor) to sow the seeds of self-doubt in Tyson's mind. And with Tyson, the classic front-runner, it's always been more about the mental game than the physical assets when he's been in with a truly great fighter.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have landed a few big hots, possibly even put big George down - but against Lyle, Foreman took his best, got up off the deck and blasted him out. This would not have been like those 7 grueling rounds in the African heat vs. Ali, where Foreman's workrate and Ali's continual laser-like left-right combos wore George down.

It's well-known that Tyson was afraid (and I mean truly afraid, not just wary) to face Foreman even during Foreman's comeback. Tyson had watched Frazier's fights and especially Foreman/Frazier over and over on tape and apparently (and quite correctly) seen himself as a younger, slightly beefier (but even shorter) version of Smokin' Joe, and come to the conclusion that he had nothing to beat George with. In other words, Foreman was already in Tyson's head even before he mounted his comeback.

I won't go so far as to say that Tyson would've had no chance - especially in his prime he always had that puncher's chance - but Foreman already knew how to beat smaller guys like Tyson, whereas Tyson never met anything approaching a prime Foreman, and was soundly beaten while still in his prime by Douglas (spare me the lame "but he no longer had Cus by his side" excuses), and twice by Holyfield, who was considered more past his prime than Tyson when they met, after his 3 wars with Bowe. Prime Foreman was only beaten by the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, and only by way of one of the most unconventional, brilliantly executed pieces of boxing strategy ever seen.

People seem to forget, but Tyson may have been the one with the weight advantage over Foreman.

[dempseyfire]

Tyson by early ko.

Tyson too quick, too powerful and yes, too strong.

If Lyle could put Foreman down, Tyson would keep him there.

Disagree. Lyle was BIG heavyweight, whereas Foreman would've had a major height and reach advantage over Tyson. And note that prime Tyson's win over the past-his-prime, out-for-2-years Holmes says nothing about how he would've fared vs. prime Foreman, who had the same kind of aura of invincibility as prime Tyson, but had it in spades, along with the imposing physical presence and Listonesque surliness (which George deliberatley cultivated from his sometime mentor) to sow the seeds of self-doubt in Tyson's mind. And with Tyson, the classic front-runner, it's always been more about the mental game than the physical assets when he's been in with a truly great fighter.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have landed a few big hots, possibly even put big George down - but against Lyle, Foreman took his best, got up off the deck and blasted him out. This would not have been like those 7 grueling rounds in the African heat vs. Ali, where Foreman's workrate and Ali's continual laser-like left-right combos wore George down.

It's well-known that Tyson was afraid (and I mean truly afraid, not just wary) to face Foreman even during Foreman's comeback. Tyson had watched Frazier's fights and especially Foreman/Frazier over and over on tape and apparently (and quite correctly) seen himself as a younger, slightly beefier (but even shorter) version of Smokin' Joe, and come to the conclusion that he had nothing to beat George with. In other words, Foreman was already in Tyson's head even before he mounted his comeback.

I won't go so far as to say that Tyson would've had no chance - especially in his prime he always had that puncher's chance - but Foreman already knew how to beat smaller guys like Tyson, whereas Tyson never met anything approaching a prime Foreman, and was soundly beaten while still in his prime by Douglas (spare me the lame "but he no longer had Cus by his side" excuses), and twice by Holyfield, who was considered more past his prime than Tyson when they met, after his 3 wars with Bowe. Prime Foreman was only beaten by the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, and only by way of one of the most unconventional, brilliantly executed pieces of boxing strategy ever seen.

People seem to forget, but Tyson may have been the one with the weight advantage over Foreman.

It really wouldn't matter if Tyson weighed in a few lbs heavier-Foreman was just naturally a 'bigger' man-bigger shoulders, longer arms, longer legs taller. Foreman in his top condition weighed about 218. Tyson 216. The weight isn't an issue.

[dempseyfire]

...so much discussion over an obvious result...foreman by kayo.

He KO'd Ken norton with only one hand--two right uppercuts!!! [/size]

Winner: George Foreman by KO in a classic!!! TU:

That was a BEAUTIFUL KO sequence-when people say Foreman is slow and clumsy they need to see that fight-he not only was strong but very athletic and could be quite fast. What big heavyweights today could do a double uppercut-hook like that????

[Max Molyneux]

George will go Tyson he'll go down so bad I'll put my name on him. Thats all I hear him say in the adverts with those grills.