Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Carbo
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Carbo »

Datsue wrote:
Carbo wrote: What was amazing about Marquez's performance against Diaz was the way he lost the first three rounds, at least, but Marquez was able to make changes to his tactics mid-fight. It wasn't just a case of coming on stronger, or him maintaining output where Diaz failed, which it is in most cases where a fighter comes back from early adversity. Marquez was able to depart from plan A, see which punches might work where he had failed early, and then through his timing, accuracy and technical excellence, make that work.

And that, my friends, is incredibly rare in the ring.

Marquez is awesome.

But I don't see how he's going to win six rounds or more against Mayweather. No way. I don't see how he can win. He might steal 2 or 4 on workrate, but that's it.

But please, please let me be wrong.
Agree pretty much word for word, Carbo. I'm still not sold on whether Marqy-Marq can take Floyd's counters, either. At lightweight he was hurt by guys because they were bigger & stronger than him -- I don't see how he's going to take Floyd's shots any better.
Yeah, people say that Floyd's a light puncher, but his punches are blindingly fast and amazingly accurate. He doesn't need to hit like a sledgehammer to wobble you if he keeps finding the point of your chin at speed.

Ask Oscar and Ricky. Hatton said he'd been hit much harder -- which I believe -- but he was all over the shop at the end against Mayweather.
Carbo
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Carbo »

Does anyone, anywhere think Marquez has a chance?

Dettloff is picking Marquez at the Ring:
Marquez has been more active against much better fighters, is almost certainly hungrier than Mayweather is, and is probably faster than anyone Mayweather has fought (with the possible exception of Zab Judah). He is as mentally strong as Mayweather is, and if you’ve been reading my column for any length of time, you know I give little credence to differences in size.
Which conveniently forgets that while Marquez might be faster than anyone Mayweather's fought of late, with the exception of Judah, he's also slower than Mayweather.

And size matters in boxing, otherwise they wouldn't have limits.

If Mayweather's faster, and has a better defence, is just as accurate and has as good technique, Marquez can't box him from the outside. That leaves the pressure fighter's route, and since Duran, I can't think of a pressure fighter who's made his game work at the top level against bigger men.

Marquez is smart, but even Einstein couldn't square a circle.
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Wales »

I think he has a chance, but that chance mostly centres on Mayweather having lost some of his edge during his two year "retirement" from the ring. If its a 2007 Mayweather Vs a 2009 Marquez... chances are slim to none.

I really really hope Mayweather wins, as Floyd Manny is a must if both guys win.
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Carbo »

Wales wrote:I think he has a chance, but that chance mostly centres on Mayweather having lost some of his edge during his two year "retirement" from the ring. If its a 2007 Mayweather Vs a 2009 Marquez... chances are slim to none.

I really really hope Mayweather wins, as Floyd Manny is a must if both guys win.
I actually think Mayweather will be better after the layoff.

His hands, and the other ailments around his body which were starting to nag, will have had a proper time to rest and heal.

I actually see a bit of a beatdown, actually.
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Bennyblanco »

Its a shame they didnt show the mayweather sparring session in episode 2. Just the aftermath :D
Carbo
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Carbo »

Bennyblanco wrote:Its a shame they didnt show the mayweather sparring session in episode 2. Just the aftermath :D
Does anyone know what that was he smashed? He looked like a big fella.
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Re: Mayweather Marquez 24 7 Episode 3

Post by Counter-puncher »

Carbo wrote:
What was amazing about Marquez's performance against Diaz was the way he lost the first three rounds, at least, but Marquez was able to make changes to his tactics mid-fight. It wasn't just a case of coming on stronger, or him maintaining output where Diaz failed, which it is in most cases where a fighter comes back from early adversity. Marquez was able to depart from plan A, see which punches might work where he had failed early, and then through his timing, accuracy and technical excellence, make that work.

And that, my friends, is incredibly rare in the ring.

Marquez is awesome.

But please, please let me be wrong.
hmm. not sure i agree with you, that JMM made that many tactical changes. in fact i'm pretty sure i disagree. from memory his fightplan was basically dictated, to begin with, by what Diaz was doing, more specifically the great amount of pressure he was bringing to bear on JMM

to my mind JMM's response to this was pretty much uniform throughout the fight- try and gain space by stepping back, slipping shots and countering whenever he could. and if he got more space, fight more offensively. as that space was limited early on, by definition IMO his game was more defensive.

the main changes IMO came when Diaz simply had less energy to impose himself on JMM. his head movement diminished somewhat by the middle rounds and greatly by the late rounds. = he started to eat more, and heavier counters. under slightly less pressure, JMM had slightly more time to pick his shots (note, if you place any credence in compubox, that JMM's connect percentage started to rise from the middle rounds), and more confidence to put more oomph into those shots.

anyways this is the bit i strongly disagree with I think:

Marquez was able to depart from plan A, see which punches might work where he had failed early,


on the simple basis that guess what, basically JMM was having success all night with counter right hands. more success later with heavier shots. to an extent he started throwing more uppercuts later on, and more bodyshots but to me that was still directly related to what Diaz was doing and able to do. you don't generally sit there under huge pressure on the ropes and whale away with the kind of uppercuts JMM hit him with late when he was able to push Diaz back a bit. those tactics were strictly related to what Diaz was lettign him do, IMO

the minute Diaz stopped putting 100% pressure on, it gave JMM the chance to work his boxing skills more and instead of strictly counterpunching off the ropes, giving Diaz subtle movement behind the jab and coming in with the hooks uppercuts bodyshots.

but ask yourself, isn't the above (his 'changeup plan' by your logic) a basic JMM fightplan? IE as soon as he had any kind of space, it was his fight. which was exactly why Diaz had to open out at the seemingly suicidal pace he set out at. his other option was being slowly picked apart and outboxed for the UD

in a lot of ways, his 'switching of tactics' was reminiscent of what he did vs Manny, there were occasions when manny like diaz threatened to overwhelm him, and on those occasions he had to bite on the gumshield and either counterpunch or flat-out fight to survive. when manny's energy levels weren't so great, JMM was much more at liberty to fight the tactical boxing genius clinic style he has made his trademark.

but in terms of 'It wasn't just a case of coming on stronger, or him maintaining output where Diaz failed, which it is in most cases where a fighter comes back from early adversity', had JMM been able to implement his late-fight gameplan from the start, he surely would have done..? it surely wasn't by choice that he got forced repeatedly against the ropes, and it was hardly a new departure for him to revert to old and better recognised JMM tactics once he was able to get off the ropes and onto the front foot....?

and it certainly wasn't Diaz' choice to apply less pressure and give JMM more opportunities. at any point much earlier in the fight than actually happened, if actually given the opportunity, I believe JMM would have put on his later-rounds tactical clinic in exactly the same way.

not that any of this takes anything away from JMM's performance, i just think you are turning a shift in energy and momentum, and JMM's magnificent ability to react to it, into some kind of tactical reversal by JMM, which isn't warranted IMO.

like JMM went to his corner somewhere around rds5-6, thinks "damn, this tactic of letting him bully me against the ropes isn't working, perhaps i had better try and back him up a bit, wonder why that never crossed my mind before? funny that. still, it's never too late for an artful tactical adjustment to be made, boy the cognoscenti will like this one"

i think his mindset was more likely, "hang in there and do what I can whilst he is fighting at this pace, then when he inevitably slows down take advantage"

unless for the first couple of rounds his thinking was basically 'fvcking hell i'm in a fight here'
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