Tarver - johnson meet up

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:14

knockout wrote: a teenage RJJ....

i always knew that you are gay

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:15

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
007 wrote:I know, just speculating what he might have been up to. I have a feeling he may have been on the roids before the ruiz fight to bulk up. But could well have been using THG or EPO all along as those have been busted recently in the same kind of timeframe Jones has lost absolutely everything.
I don't really see anything to suggest that Roy was on anything prior to taking on Ruiz. I was shocked by how much he had bulked up for the Ruiz fight, and I think he may well have been on something suspect for that fight to build up.

Jones looked as strong as a bull for the Ruiz fight, he looked to me like he had the power to have whacked him out of there.

The first tarver fight he looked terrible, old, drawn, his skin was a sickly grey colour, and his muscle tone was noticably poor, his muscles had been forced to burn down to provide him with energy due to starving himself, and perhaps that had a permanent effect on him.

Modern athletes take so many supplements, that it is no surprise when one of them fails a drugs test. Those tests pick up on tiny amounts of substances and there are lots of different substances which find their way into health supplements all the time.

The positive drugs test was something to give you a clue he had taken stimulants, if he used EPO it would make sence that he would not have as good recovery. Also the dramatic way in which he faided in the later rounds was telling.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:17

mickeybeard wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:
topper123 wrote:Both boxers have given up there titles to get this fight on as well.

Which just makes the ruling bodies look even stupidier than they are.

Whoever wins will be the rightful champion in everyones eyes
no, they first have to fight Erdei, where Johnson has absolutely no chance and Tarver only with a monster punch like vs. RJJ.
Don't get carried away Bubi. I've liked what I've seen of Erdei, but Tarver/Johnson are the men who beat The Man. The winner of that fight will be The Man, and Erdei will have to come to them. Lets see if he does that, or acts like all those piss-poor British fighters you dislike so much - calling out the winner from the other side of the atlantic and plodding along with his WBO belt.

I hope not, actually, because Erdei looks a bit useful.

RJJ WAS the man. he is fucked up. Johnson is just a good boxer and Tarver has to prove more than one punch (which was brilliant of course). Johnson had no chance vs. Ottke one division lower. maybe we should reactivate Sven to be THE MAN in light heavy. be realistic.

J · Post by J » 10 Nov 2004, 11:19

BubiScholz wrote:
007 wrote:Erdei is obviously talented, but the winner of Tarver v Johnson will be recognised as the true champ of the division.
only because both won vs. RJJ. come on, RJJ would run ot of gas after six rounds vs. Erdei. Johnson is not the MAN in the division. he would have no chance vs. Erdei. he is as fast as Otke and a good puncher.

?

Bubi come on mate, 99%of the boxing world would say the wionner of Johnson Tarver is the MAN at Light Heavy, if Erdei beats the bivictor then he can become the MAN, til then he aint even the Mans pet dawg, let alone the man himself!!!

to say Johnson wouldnt stand a chance is a bit daft I reckon mate.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:23

J wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:
007 wrote:Erdei is obviously talented, but the winner of Tarver v Johnson will be recognised as the true champ of the division.
only because both won vs. RJJ. come on, RJJ would run ot of gas after six rounds vs. Erdei. Johnson is not the MAN in the division. he would have no chance vs. Erdei. he is as fast as Otke and a good puncher.

?

Bubi come on mate, 99%of the boxing world would say the wionner of Johnson Tarver is the MAN at Light Heavy, if Erdei beats the bivictor then he can become the MAN, til then he aint even the Mans pet dawg, let alone the man himself!!!

to say Johnson wouldnt stand a chance is a bit daft I reckon mate.

99% of the boxing world is american or british. but anyway, just for the moment you might be right. but don´t forget the Ottke-fight where Johnson had no chance. and Erdei is better than Ottke.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:29

It's amazing Bubi, how you always favour European fighters over anyone else.

How can he be more the man than Tarver, Tarver has beaten by far a better level of opposition.

Erdei's only good win was over Gonzalez, who else has he beaten?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:30

BubiScholz wrote:
J wrote:
BubiScholz wrote: only because both won vs. RJJ. come on, RJJ would run ot of gas after six rounds vs. Erdei. Johnson is not the MAN in the division. he would have no chance vs. Erdei. he is as fast as Otke and a good puncher.

?

Bubi come on mate, 99%of the boxing world would say the wionner of Johnson Tarver is the MAN at Light Heavy, if Erdei beats the bivictor then he can become the MAN, til then he aint even the Mans pet dawg, let alone the man himself!!!

to say Johnson wouldnt stand a chance is a bit daft I reckon mate.
99% of the boxing world is american or british. but anyway, just for the moment you might be right. but don´t forget the Ottke-fight where Johnson had no chance. and Erdei is better than Ottke.

Erdei is better than Ottke, based on what exactly, aside from your opinion of his talent. He's not achieved anywhere near as much.

mickeybeard · Post by **mickeybeard** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:31

BubiScholz wrote:RJJ WAS the man. he is fucked up. Johnson is just a good boxer and Tarver has to prove more than one punch (which was brilliant of course). Johnson had no chance vs. Ottke one division lower. maybe we should reactivate Sven to be THE MAN in light heavy.

Exactly my point. RJJ was the man. You've just said so youself. You see, we can all agree and get along here.

RJJ was the leading light, and DM was a very talented supporting cast member. Johnson and Tarver have beaten the man. Erdei has beaten the bloke who beat DM (and who was comfortably delt with by Jones). The winner of Johnson/Tarver is the new MAN, Erdei is just another talented contender. Yes, both Johnson and Tarver got to Jones at the right time, but so what? That's boxing mate. You think Marciano would've done what he did to Louis is Joe was in his prime? You beat the man, you become the man. End of.

BubiScholz wrote:be realistic.

Oooo, that's particularly cutting, coming from such a level-headed, open-minded, non-biased, German-based-fighter-fanatic... err, I mean: impartial observer such as yourself.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:38

BubiScholz wrote:
topper123 wrote:Both boxers have given up there titles to get this fight on as well.

Which just makes the ruling bodies look even stupidier than they are.

Whoever wins will be the rightful champion in everyones eyes
no, they first have to fight Erdei, where Johnson has absolutely no chance and Tarver only with a monster punch like vs. RJJ.

Bubi, i have not seen Erdei box, i think he's going to suffer like some of the british boxers who have won WBO titles, that is , its not a top title in America and the TV companies arn't interested in it , so unless he goes to the USA and makes a name for himself , he will always be a minor champ. no matter how good he is.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:46

first of all i love when european boxers kick ass of american boxers. because they think that boxing without brain and just punching don´t matter if the punches count is great. the best example is de la Tortila-Kournikova who is for me the most overrated boxer of all times. he punches like an idiot to the fists of his opponents and east LA drives crazy and the judges too.

regarding Tarver there is to say that his best fight was a KO vs. an outwashed RJJ. respect. his monster punch was great. but after the Johnson-fight the world could see that RJJ´s time is more than over. he played with his health, seriously. but he whole (american) world thought RJJ was the MAN in light heavy. that was fornicating wrong. DM has a monster chin and would never be floored by a -sorry- average guy like Johnson or even not by Tarver. it´s no automatism that if you have too top guys that the american is the better one because he fought more american guys. maybe DM is actually not the #1, but he was it in the last 10 years. so i take it the other way round. the anti-america-way. DM lost vs. a very good Gonzalez who loked brilliant this day. so then Gonzalez was the man because of this only win. after beatin Gonzalez now Erdei is the man. we don´t have to go the american way.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:48

topper123 wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:
topper123 wrote:Both boxers have given up there titles to get this fight on as well.

Which just makes the ruling bodies look even stupidier than they are.

Whoever wins will be the rightful champion in everyones eyes
no, they first have to fight Erdei, where Johnson has absolutely no chance and Tarver only with a monster punch like vs. RJJ.
Bubi, i have not seen Erdei box, i think he's going to suffer like some of the british boxers who have won WBO titles, that is , its not a top title in America and the TV companies arn't interested in it , so unless he goes to the USA and makes a name for himself , he will always be a minor champ. no matter how good he is.

at the moment you are right. but he has some time left. he is just 30.

mickeybeard · Post by **mickeybeard** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:50

I've seen a couple of Erdei's fights and, like I've said, been impressed. I'd give him a decent chance against Tarver or Johnson, and hopefully we'll get to see those fights, but saying that he's anything like dop dog in the division is getting more than a little ahead of ourselves.

Actually Bubi, you should be cheering on Johnson in this fight. The man has shown he's willing to travel so I would think there's more chance of Johnson/Erdei than Tarver/Erdei (given that I don't think we'll be seeing Erdei on the other side of the atlantic too often).

And Gonzalez was not the man, Bubi. Why would a win over a faded DM be better than a win over a faded RJJ? Anyway, he was convincingly beat by the man several years back. You have to beat the man who beat the man, not beat the man who got beat by the the man!

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:56

mickeybeard wrote: Anyway, he was convincingly beat by the man several years back. You have to beat the man who beat the man, not beat the man who got beat by the the man!

Beats me!!

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:58

i (and some other millions) say that DM is better than RJJ. that´s not irrational. it´s just not the amaerican or anti-german-opinion.

so then a win over him counts more. so Gonzalez was the MAN in beating him. and now it is Erdei. and not Johnson or Tarver.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Nov 2004, 11:59

BubiScholz wrote:first of all i love when european boxers kick ass of american boxers. because they think that boxing without brain and just punching don´t matter if the punches count is great. the best example is de la Tortila-Kournikova who is for me the most overrated boxer of all times. he punches like an idiot to the fists of his opponents and east LA drives crazy and the judges too.

regarding Tarver there is to say that his best fight was a KO vs. an outwashed RJJ. respect. his monster punch was great. but after the Johnson-fight the world could see that RJJ´s time is more than over. he played with his health, seriously. but he whole (american) world thought RJJ was the MAN in light heavy. that was fornicating wrong. DM has a monster chin and would never be floored by a -sorry- average guy like Johnson or even not by Tarver. it´s no automatism that if you have too top guys that the american is the better one because he fought more american guys. maybe DM is actually not the #1, but he was it in the last 10 years. so i take it the other way round. the anti-america-way. DM lost vs. a very good Gonzalez who loked brilliant this day. so then Gonzalez was the man because of this only win. after beatin Gonzalez now Erdei is the man. we don´t have to go the american way.

Christ you're deluded, and totally biased.

You're saying that Jones was gone when Tarver and Johnson got to him, but both me forced Jones into a fight in a way that none of his previous opponents were either able to willing to.

However, Gonzales is so brilliant because he beats Dariusz, even though Dariusz had already had a really long hard career, and taken beats in lots of fights. So when Erdei beats Gonzales, he's suddenly THE MAN, despite the fact it is his only creditable win.

I'm not American am I? Yet I accept that Jones was the more dominant force than Dariusz.

You are in denial, and you're arguments are farcical.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:02

DM looked awful against Gonzalez. Gonzalez didn't look much cop either. DM just looked old and knackered.

With regard to the original pictures, rather strangely neither of them look like boxers. I know the old line of 'if they look good then they don't get hit much' but neither of them strike me as looking the part. And I think Tarver's a prick, but that's just a personal thing and I'll try to overlook it.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:03

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:first of all i love when european boxers kick ass of american boxers. because they think that boxing without brain and just punching don´t matter if the punches count is great. the best example is de la Tortila-Kournikova who is for me the most overrated boxer of all times. he punches like an idiot to the fists of his opponents and east LA drives crazy and the judges too.

regarding Tarver there is to say that his best fight was a KO vs. an outwashed RJJ. respect. his monster punch was great. but after the Johnson-fight the world could see that RJJ´s time is more than over. he played with his health, seriously. but he whole (american) world thought RJJ was the MAN in light heavy. that was fornicating wrong. DM has a monster chin and would never be floored by a -sorry- average guy like Johnson or even not by Tarver. it´s no automatism that if you have too top guys that the american is the better one because he fought more american guys. maybe DM is actually not the #1, but he was it in the last 10 years. so i take it the other way round. the anti-america-way. DM lost vs. a very good Gonzalez who loked brilliant this day. so then Gonzalez was the man because of this only win. after beatin Gonzalez now Erdei is the man. we don´t have to go the american way.
Christ you're deluded, and totally biased.

You're saying that Jones was gone when Tarver and Johnson got to him, but both me forced Jones into a fight in a way that none of his previous opponents were either able to willing to.

However, Gonzales is so brilliant because he beats Dariusz, even though Dariusz had already had a really long hard career, and taken beats in lots of fights. So when Erdei beats Gonzales, he's suddenly THE MAN, despite the fact it is his only creditable win.

I'm not American am I? Yet I accept that Jones was the more dominant force than Dariusz.

You are in denial, and you're arguments are farcical.

it´s not farcial to pretend that DM was/is better than RJJ. millions of people do that, not only polish or german. that´s all.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:05

Coconut wrote:DM looked awful against Gonzalez. Gonzalez didn't look much cop either. DM just looked old and knackered.

With regard to the original pictures, rather strangely neither of them look like boxers. I know the old line of 'if they look good then they don't get hit much' but neither of them strike me as looking the part. And I think Tarver's a prick, but that's just a personal thing and I'll try to overlook it.

RJJ looked worse than DM. no doubt.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:08

So what, it's amazing how you're prepared to state that neither Tarver or Johnson are the man, for beating Jones, and yet Erdei is the man, because he beat the man who caught Dariusz' at the end of a long hard career.

Even before the fight with Gonzales, there were people saying that Dariusz was slipping, however, as far as you're concerned that doesn't count.

Pathetic.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:19

i just pretend that DM was better than RJJ. you´re doing it the other way. where´s your problem? why is my opinion pathetic and your opinionn the right one? because you have 3000 more posts and you are the better expert?

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:19

Don't forget Bubi , Jesus loves you , everyone else thinks your a c**t

mickeybeard · Post by **mickeybeard** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:23

Yep. You can't have your cake and eat it, Bubi. Explain to the class how a win over faded fighter A means nothing, but a win over the guy that beat faded fighter B makes you the division's fighter to beat.

As for whether DM was a better LH than RJJ, well that's a debate that I would've liked to have seen settled in the ring, but unfortunately it wasn't to be. However, DM wasn't a multi-weight champ, never beat any true pound-for-pound contenders (let alone all-time greats) and never moved up to become the first former middleweight to be heavyweight champ in an age (hand-picked champ or not). I can buy an argument that DM would've beaten RJJ had they fought (I disagree, but I can buy it) but to argue that he was the division's marquee fighter? C'mon mate.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:23

it´s so ridiculuos what happens here if you have another opinion of two boxers who are maybe as strong.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:24

Did anyone else read the title of this thread and think it was suggesting the next Boxrec meet be at Los Angeles?

I mean I don't mind pushing the boat out from time to time but f*ck me...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Nov 2004, 12:33

BubiScholz wrote:i just pretend that DM was better than RJJ. you´re doing it the other way. where´s your problem? why is my opinion pathetic and your opinionn the right one? because you have 3000 more posts and you are the better expert?

Well, finally you talk some sense.....that and the fact I can spell opinion.

The truth of the matter is this. I'm not pretending anything. Judging by their performances against common opponents at their peak, Jones has to be judged the better fighter, have a look at their records.

It is also a fact that Jones and Dariusz were both reaching the end of their careers when they were beaten. Jones' decline was more serious, but both men were past their primes, that is undeniable. I have no doubt in my mind that Dariusz and Jones would have beaten those foes two years earlier.

Gonzales was seen as a minor threat going into the fight, and looked very ordinary against Erdei who had an easy time keeping him at range. His best result prior to that was a wide loss to Jones, no shame in that, but nobody was calling him a future great.

Your reasoning is flawed.