calzaghes legacy

[ALI]

These anti-Calzaghe threads are pathetic. The guy has retired undefeated, in any other country he'd be a hero.

How do you think the boxing media and fans in America would have taken to Calzaghe had he been one of theirs?

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

There were a few problems with Calzaghes career

1. He didnt like taking risks, but when he did take risks he would come out the winner, Froch likes taking risks and challenging himself but clearly isnt in the same league as a fighter. He never fought a great fighter in their prime but fought many good fighters, and 2 past prime greats

2. He was born on the wrong side of the pond. If Joe was born in America after beating Eubank he would had to take bigger fights to get TV dates and make money, no one would pay for crappy defenses. They would have thrown him in with an American titlist with in the year like Liles/Mitchell or Brewer. Its possible he would have been WBO/IBF/WBA by the end of the 90s, which would make him a star made a few defenses, and gone for a Calzaghe-Jones Jr superfight in the early 00s. Thats what should have happened as both needed a great rival

3. The title belts for the main part were in different countries and inter-country fights are quite hard to make. Joe/Warren should have jumped at the chance of making a Reid/Woodhall fight though but Im not sure what the politics of the time were

4. Even though unification with Beyer/Otke was difficult but not impossible Joe could have fought many fights from 2000-2006 to show himself the best in the division. There was the Reid rematch, Mundine was WBA ordinary champ, Danny Green , Echols destroyed Brewer before Calzaghe got to Brewer, Vanderpool was considered a top contender for a while. He probably would have won all of these fights and they were the better fights to make in the division. Then there was the chance to fight Gonzalez for the WBO LHW title he had, the chance to fight Glen Johnson for the IBF LHW title he cried off sick from 2-3 times. And he probably could have made a fight with Tarver when Tarver was on top

[Pongsaklek]

Lacy isn´t even a top 10 win on Calzaghe´s ledger, and that says more about Lacy than it does about Calzaghe. Lacy has always been nothing but a very mediocre fighter, and Calzaghe only beat out the very little talent he ever possessed. He struggled to defeat Omar Sheika before he ever met Calzaghe. Markus "Medicore" Beyer barely lost a round to Sheika. Lacy couldn´t win more than a single round against Jones and Taylor.

[Captain Hook]

These anti-Calzaghe threads are pathetic. The guy has retired undefeated, in any other country he'd be a hero.

How do you think the boxing media and fans in America would have taken to Calzaghe had he been one of theirs?

I agree about America, along with us they would probably have been critical, as they have been of Mayweather for example.....

But to be fair to Calzaghe he's been in a few tear ups along the way - Sheika, Mitchell etc - and that would have kept a lot of them happy. He wasn't a boring fighter, I think they'd have been more critical if he was.

That said he wouldn't have got as much stick for not fighting overseas!

[Autobarn]

let's not write off the kessler and lacy fights. good wins, in a long successful consistent career. good wins, not great wins. perhaps no GREAT single win. the fact is, the yanks believed in lacy, good or bad, and that calzaghe did ruin him. it was the perfect fight to inspire his best, to show off his fluid skills & he took 2 unbeaten records and 3 world titles (combined v lacy and kessler). now clearly what he did, if only off those stats, was top 10 world class stuff.

calzaghe was much more aggressive v kessler than ward, and calzaghe may have shown ward many things, any ways HOW to beat kessler. fighters are constantly changing, whether for the better (experience, skills, physical maturity, strength at this or that weight) or the worst (injury, wear and tear, complacency). everything about a fighter cannot be encapsulated in just the name. the kessler who lost to ward isn't exactly the same kessler who lost to calzaghe. and ward is different physically and stylistically to joe. and kessler-calzaghe and kessler-ward were events of different magnitude: in other words all the prizes were on offer vs calzaghe, it was a bigger event; joe won more in one fight, regardless of how impressively ward would beat kessler.

just as fighters change, legacies can also be fluid. i'm not 100% sold on joe, as he was a top 3 or 4 p4p and could've gunned for the #1 spot yet never seemed to take that extra risk, reach for that extra level. kessler isn't finished in the tournament - it is possible (but not likely) that he rebounds, learns his lesson, and wins the whole lot. or perhaps wins another world title or take an unbeaten record.

i prefer what these super 6 guys are doing (apart from dirrell and his negative approach) because you are seeing more risk, sooner. but we shall have to see what happens. i don't think there's any need to say lacy and kessler were CRAP or AVERAGE. i mean, turn back the clock you noggins and be grateful: WE WERE ALL ASKING FOR THESE 2 FIGHTS.

[teddy007]

Personally I'm glad sicknotes gone - Hopkins was a close fight & I always thought B-Hop nicked it. Roy Jones was a dead body and Lacy & Kessler are truly ordinary.

I think this article sums up his CV nicely:

Knock Out Blow for Calzaghes Legacy?
By Glenn Userian - Whether or not Joe Calzaghe has felt any physical pain over the last month he must certainly be smarting, as unusually within the world of boxing his resume has been severely discredited and has turned into a who’s who of boxers who were either in complete decline or who never produced at the top level. Without even stepping into the ring the 46-0 fighter who was a world champion and title holder for little over 10 years at Super Middle Weight has watched his achievements be undermined significantly, and he only has himself to blame..

The shame of the whole issue is that Calzaghe was a worthy world champion, an extremely effective and well conditioned fighter. He put together some very good performances. But when you look at his record now there is not even one defining fight against a top level boxer in his prime.

Talk of being considered an all time great alongside the likes of Leonard and Duran could not be further from peoples’ minds when perusing their respective list of achievements. The irony of the whole situation is that in protecting his unbeaten record Calzaghe has left so many question marks over his career that it was being debated by boxing fans how good he actually was before he even retired.

Calzaghe has always pointed to four fights that prove he was world class and the best fighter at his weight at his time; Hopkins, Roy Jones Junior, Lacy and Kessler.

Hopkins was beaten by a debatable split decision and had Calzaghe down hard in the first round. Let’s not forget that Hopkins was 43 years old at the time a full 15 years past his title bout with Roy JJ in one of the most physically demanding sports there is. There’s no doubting that Hopkins is still a good fighter after his schooling of the previously heralded Kelly Pavlik, but what would a 15 years younger Hopkins have done to Calzaghe? And why was the fight not made earlier?

Jeff Lacy was a fighter who never lived up to the hype that usually goes with unbeaten American prospects, unbeaten when he faced Calzaghe his career at the prime age of 32 has not got anywhere near the top level.

In the last few weeks Kessler who was unbeaten when he faced Calzaghe was comprehensively outpointed by American Pro novice Andre Ward who was in his 21st pro fight. As good as Ward promises to be Kessler looked one dimensional and out of ideas. He certainly has work to do to prove himself a worthy world level scalp on Calzaghes record and only time will tell.

Finally we have Roy Jones Junior who this evening in Australia was stopped after only 1:58 of his title bout against the Australian IBO cruiserweight belt holder Danny Green after being floored heavily with a right hand. There is no way that this should detract from what Roy JJ has achieved in his career, but what it does show is that he is no where near the fighter he was in 1993 when he beat Hopkins for the vacant IBF Middleweight title. The slide probably began with his back to back defeats to Tarver (twice) interspersed with a defeat to Johnson in 2004. Since then Roy JJ has looked a shadow of his former self but still took Calzaghe the distance in 2008.

Calzaghes protection of his unbeaten record has cost him dearly, for all the adulation he receives in the UK, history will judge him on the quality of opposition he faced. Of that there was not a great deal in the first place, but recently the few fighters that Joe claimed were world class have been exposed as either not good enough to be considered top contenders or simply well past their best. Boxing is a risky business and you can only be judged to be as good as the risks you have taken and triumphed from. Unfortunately for Joe and his fans he seems to have taken little risk and what he is left with now is a resume that may read unbeaten but with not even one fight against a worthy top level opponent in their prime.

Well written piece and I aggree 100%

[charlieb]

It's looking worse by the day.

There's still a chance that Kessler could redeem himself to boost Calzaghe back up a bit, but there's no chance of that happening with Jones or Lacy now, not that the Jones win meant anything, but if he could've pulled something off after that (other than getting KO'd in a round), it would've made his loss to Calzaghe less empty, as Hopkins did with his win over Pavlik.

Personally, I think Kessler's in for a rough time, and I'm not holding out a lot of hope of him coming through for Joe.

It's spilt milk, there's nothing Calzaghe can do about it now, can't see him coming out of retirement to fix something he didn't give a sh*t about before he retired.

[ALI]

i don't think there's any need to say lacy and kessler were CRAP or AVERAGE. i mean, turn back the clock you noggins and be grateful: WE WERE ALL ASKING FOR THESE 2 FIGHTS.

Another one who does not understand the relevance of hindsight and the ability to re-evaluate past events!

Eastside awaits you D

[Asterix]

Lacy isn´t even a top 10 win on Calzaghe´s ledger, and that says more about Lacy than it does about Calzaghe. Lacy has always been nothing but a very mediocre fighter, and Calzaghe only beat out the very little talent he ever possessed. He struggled to defeat Omar Sheika before he ever met Calzaghe. Markus "Medicore" Beyer barely lost a round to Sheika. Lacy couldn´t win more than a single round against Jones and Taylor.

Jeff Lacy was a very good fighter at the point when Calzaghe faced him. Almost everyone here seems to be brushing over the fact that momentum means a hell of a lot in boxing.

Lacy was a legitimate World titlist who had just knocked out Rubin Williams, Robin Reid and Scott Pemberton (who knocked out Sheika) in succession. The Lacy after the Calzaghe fight would not have achieved that. I'm not saying he was amazing, but he was legitimate, and soooo much better before the Calzaghe fight than after it. All you have to do is watch the footage.

[RLewis]

Among the various problems I have with that article by Glenn Userian, I'll just pick out one:

"Calzaghe has always pointed to four fights that prove he was world class and the best fighter at his weight at his time; Hopkins, Roy Jones Junior, Lacy and Kessler."

Joe Calzaghe has never pointed to any wins to prove he was world class, if he ever did, I wasn't there and when it came tohis fights and press conferences, I was usually there. He has never graded himself, never said he was pound-for-pound No 1, barely ever bragged at all. I asked him once to list his best fights and he said it wasn't down to him. And is the writer of this article claiming he was not world class? What idiot view is that?

What is the motivation to write an article like this? What are the writer's qualifications to make judgements like that? What is the motivation to start a thread like this? The constant things stated as "facts" when they are merely blinkered opinion is breathtaking (and writing the word "fact" in capital letters doesn't make it any more a fact, especially when it is not a fact in the first place). Who are you actually trying to convince? The only person I ever heard compare Joe to Sugar Ray Leonard was Sugar Ray Leonard - I was in the room when he said it.

The really odd thing is that I know a lot of genuine boxing experts and none of them would ever be so negative about anyone who stepped in the ring. Whether you think Joe was an all-time great, or whether you think he was just lucky, why the hatred aimed his way? He gave a lot of fans a lot of happy nights, a lot of boxers got work on his undercards, he helped to keep the sport mainstream in Britain. Surely that's a good thing if you actually are a boxing fan. He gave me some of my greatest nights at ringside, nights I will always remember.

Lord Brooks, the Board President, reckons that Calzaghe is the best British boxer since the war. And as he saw Ike Williams box, he has seen all of the best in person. I would trust that opinion over most.

[Asterix]

Agreed. Nice one, Ron.

[Coco]

The really odd thing is that I know a lot of genuine boxing experts and none of them would ever be so negative about anyone who stepped in the ring.

From the man who wrote that article on Pete Buckley

[Finn]

People complain about calzaghe but roy jones jr was exactly the same he dodged calzaghe as much as calzaghe dodged him, he dodged eubank, and he dodged benn. At super middle weight all three of those fighters would have beat RJJ.

Also this crap about hopkins nearly beating calzaghe, hopkins didnt even fight he was a discrace, it was an embarrasment to the sport all he did was spoil and cheat then lye on the floor. If it had been 5 years earlier hopkins would have tried boxing and been completely schooled by calzaghe.

Alot of the haters on here were the same people who were saying pavlik would beat calzaghe, now there saying hopkins schooled pavlik how great is hopkins. If calzaghe had gone to town on pavlik these same people would be saying pavlik is an average fighter and a nobody "who has calzaghe ever fought" lol.

Its a joke.

[crusader]

People complain about calzaghe but roy jones jr was exactly the same he dodged calzaghe as much as calzaghe dodged him, he dodged eubank, and he dodged benn. At super middle weight all three of those fighters would have beat RJJ.

Also this crap about hopkins nearly beating calzaghe, hopkins didnt even fight he was a discrace, it was an embarrasment to the sport all he did was spoil and cheat then lye on the floor. If it had been 5 years earlier hopkins would have tried boxing and been completely schooled by calzaghe.

Alot of the haters on here were the same people who were saying pavlik would beat calzaghe, now there saying hopkins schooled pavlik how great is hopkins. If calzaghe had gone to town on pavlik these same people would be saying pavlik is an average fighter and a nobody "who has calzaghe ever fought" lol.

Its a joke.

Your a joke if you think Calzaghe would ever stop Hopkins if they fought five years earlier. Eubank, Benn, and Calzaghe wern't in the same class as a prime RJJ. He was far more talented then all of them, especially the first two. Calzaghe could have closed out his career by taking on a young gun like Dawson or entering the Super Six, instead he settled for the shell of a fighter who had already been stopped brutally in recent years and was stopped in 122 seconds a few days ago. Talk about going out with a bang

[gobbles]

People complain about calzaghe but roy jones jr was exactly the same he dodged calzaghe as much as calzaghe dodged him, he dodged eubank, and he dodged benn. At super middle weight all three of those fighters would have beat RJJ.

Also this crap about hopkins nearly beating calzaghe, hopkins didnt even fight he was a discrace, it was an embarrasment to the sport all he did was spoil and cheat then lye on the floor. If it had been 5 years earlier hopkins would have tried boxing and been completely schooled by calzaghe.

Alot of the haters on here were the same people who were saying pavlik would beat calzaghe, now there saying hopkins schooled pavlik how great is hopkins. If calzaghe had gone to town on pavlik these same people would be saying pavlik is an average fighter and a nobody "who has calzaghe ever fought" lol.

Its a joke.

Your a joke if you think Calzaghe would ever stop Hopkins if they fought five years earlier. Eubank, Benn, and Calzaghe wern't in the same class as a prime RJJ. He was far more talented then all of them, especially the first two. Calzaghe could have closed out his career by taking on a young gun like Dawson or entering the Super Six, instead he settled for the shell of a fighter who had already been stopped brutally in recent years and was stopped in 122 seconds a few days ago. Talk about going out with a bang

Was Calzaghe offered a place in the Super Six before he retired?
Had the Super Six been thought of then?
Was Calzaghe even a super-middleweight after 2007?
Name your source on this gem of information.

[crusader]

People complain about calzaghe but roy jones jr was exactly the same he dodged calzaghe as much as calzaghe dodged him, he dodged eubank, and he dodged benn. At super middle weight all three of those fighters would have beat RJJ.

Also this crap about hopkins nearly beating calzaghe, hopkins didnt even fight he was a discrace, it was an embarrasment to the sport all he did was spoil and cheat then lye on the floor. If it had been 5 years earlier hopkins would have tried boxing and been completely schooled by calzaghe.

Alot of the haters on here were the same people who were saying pavlik would beat calzaghe, now there saying hopkins schooled pavlik how great is hopkins. If calzaghe had gone to town on pavlik these same people would be saying pavlik is an average fighter and a nobody "who has calzaghe ever fought" lol.

Its a joke.

Your a joke if you think Calzaghe would ever stop Hopkins if they fought five years earlier. Eubank, Benn, and Calzaghe wern't in the same class as a prime RJJ. He was far more talented then all of them, especially the first two. Calzaghe could have closed out his career by taking on a young gun like Dawson or entering the Super Six, instead he settled for the shell of a fighter who had already been stopped brutally in recent years and was stopped in 122 seconds a few days ago. Talk about going out with a bang

Was Calzaghe offered a place in the Super Six before he retired?
Had the Super Six been thought of then?
Was Calzaghe even a super-middleweight after 2007?
Name your source on this gem of information.

The Super Six was signed less than a year after he retired, he could have easily came back and taken on the best SMW in the world, not an over the hill legend. If he couldn't make 168 then he could have fougt Dawson. Big, undefeated, far better than RJJ and much more proven than the hype job Lacy. Erdei had the balls to fight for a CW title, Joe could have moved up a won a title there and it would have proven a lot more than beating Jones.

[crusader]

People complain about calzaghe but roy jones jr was exactly the same he dodged calzaghe as much as calzaghe dodged him, he dodged eubank, and he dodged benn. At super middle weight all three of those fighters would have beat RJJ.

Also this crap about hopkins nearly beating calzaghe, hopkins didnt even fight he was a discrace, it was an embarrasment to the sport all he did was spoil and cheat then lye on the floor. If it had been 5 years earlier hopkins would have tried boxing and been completely schooled by calzaghe.

Alot of the haters on here were the same people who were saying pavlik would beat calzaghe, now there saying hopkins schooled pavlik how great is hopkins. If calzaghe had gone to town on pavlik these same people would be saying pavlik is an average fighter and a nobody "who has calzaghe ever fought" lol.

Its a joke.

Your a joke if you think Calzaghe would ever stop Hopkins if they fought five years earlier. Eubank, Benn, and Calzaghe wern't in the same class as a prime RJJ. He was far more talented then all of them, especially the first two. Calzaghe could have closed out his career by taking on a young gun like Dawson or entering the Super Six, instead he settled for the shell of a fighter who had already been stopped brutally in recent years and was stopped in 122 seconds a few days ago. Talk about going out with a bang

Maybe he wouldn't have stopped him (I don't think he would) but you have to agree with his point, if b-hop had tried to fight joe instead of spoil all night it would have been an easy win that night. Years earlier who knows, people always forget b-hop agreed to fight joe and then rang back the next day and asked for double to get out of it, I doubt it was due to fear but he stopped the meeting earlier in their careers. Roy jones is a totally different monster though, I always give joe a chance because he was a winner he always found a way to win, that's what he did, pity those fights never came off, but roy did avoid Eubank, Benn and Collins was screaming for that fight, roy beats collins every day but he would have been a much tougher test than the typical jones jr opponent of the time.

Thats not B-Hops style though, I assume you have seen him fight. He has always been a boring, tricky, and highly skilled boxer who tends to be hard to watch. He would never "fight" with Calzaghe or any opponent with a similar style.

[RLewis]

The really odd thing is that I know a lot of genuine boxing experts and none of them would ever be so negative about anyone who stepped in the ring.

From the man who wrote that article on Pete Buckley

I did not write a negative article about Peter Buckley. I wrote an article questioning whether we should be celebrating the career of somebody who had not won a fight in five years and whether it was right that boxers with such losing records should be licenced to box. What happened to the story after it left me was beyond my control. I know you will never believe that, but it is the truth.

[teddy007]

The really odd thing is that I know a lot of genuine boxing experts and none of them would ever be so negative about anyone who stepped in the ring.

From the man who wrote that article on Pete Buckley

I did not write a negative article about Peter Buckley. I wrote an article questioning whether we should be celebrating the career of somebody who had not won a fight in five years and whether it was right that boxers with such losing records should be licenced to box. What happened to the story after it left me was beyond my control. I know you will never believe that, but it is the truth.

OK Ron I believe you...ars*hole

[rob h]

The reason people don't like Calzaghe is his attitude. He is arrogant in interviews and when you see him speaking on shows to the general public he likes mentions how great and legendary he is.

And most of us know the he's not that great and certainly not a legend.

This is why some people cannot stand the man. He does not deserve his status. I watched him for years and hoped he would step up. But instead he fought Tocker Pudwill. Three fights at the end of his Career do not make up for lost time I'm afraid.

[ArtOfWar]

From the man who wrote that article on Pete Buckley

I did not write a negative article about Peter Buckley. I wrote an article questioning whether we should be celebrating the career of somebody who had not won a fight in five years and whether it was right that boxers with such losing records should be licenced to box. What happened to the story after it left me was beyond my control. I know you will never believe that, but it is the truth.

OK Ron I believe you...ars*hole

Yep. That post you wrote above Ron was pure tripe. Gave boxing lots of boxing fans lots of happy nights? He gave us many more horrible nights than good ones. Up until he fought Lacy almost everytime the opponent was announced for his next fight it was met with anger and frustration. Some of the blame lies with FW, but if Joe really wanted to test himself against a prime Jones or Hopkins etc he would have forced Frank's hand or left him.

[gobbles]

Depends on your view of the phrase lots really. Certainly, before Lacy you could count the wins over Delaney, Eubank, Woodhall, Sheika, Veit, Brewer and Mitchell as happy nights.

[ArtOfWar]

Depends on your view of the phrase lots really. Certainly, before Lacy you could count the wins over Delaney, Eubank, Woodhall, Sheika, Veit, Brewer and Mitchell as happy nights.

Only if you had low expections for Calzaghe. Nothing wrong with Delaney or Eubank, because that was when he was coming up and won his first world title. The frustration set in when he started defending his title. Woodhall, Brewer and Mitchell had all lost their titles before Calzaghe fought them, Veit was a nobody who Calzaghe inexcusably fought twice. Sheika was a solid title defense at the time, but none of those fights got anyone really excited.

[stujones]

Sheika lost to Tony Booth!!! It was not a solid defence. Not among his worst, but only in the same bracket as someone like David Starie.

[hitman_hatton1]

too many duds on his record.

i still think he done enough to be a top 100 all timer though.

not higher than jones or hopkins.

despite the fact he beat both.