Boxer vrs Wrestler/Jack Johnson to Evander Holyfield

[Expug]

Boy the bs is flying freely in this thread!

* Sullivan never fought Muldoon! This whopper has been embellished and carried on by eager fans over the years. If someone produces a newspaper report from that time and date contradicting me I will sit here with egg on my face but until then, it's virtual fantasy and should be treated as such. "From what I understand", "I heard once", "is said to have", "I would imagine". When you see these comments preface "facts", is folly not scholarship. When you are making a guess, identify it as such.
* Sullivan was a total novice at wrestling at the time of the Kilrain fight though Muldoon did train him in wrestling. But not greco since it was useless for prizefighting.
* Greco-roman wrestling had nothing to do with LPR. LPR predates greco in England by over a hundred years. The few wrestling techniques prizefighters used were from Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling. Read the old books and you will see that there wasn't as much wrestling in LPR as people suppose today because of the early Queensberry film. A prizefighter couldn't wrestle a man in LPR because he was at risk of being thrown so he had to be wary. Boxers couldn't chip or buttock in Queensberry so holding became more prevalent.
* Muldoon wasn't in Jeffries camp in any training capacity, he was only a visitor.
* Gotch wasn't in Jeffries camp in any functional capacity.
* There was no significant challenge between Foreman and Bruno Sammartino. But Sammartino did spar with Sonny Liston once in New York when he was young and Liston was the champ and he took a beating.

Ben,
There was a gentleman who passed away a number of years ago by the name of Tim Geoghegan.
He was a fantastic grappler as I have heard and read. Wrestled proffesionaly also.
Any relation to you?

[ben geoghegan]

What I wrote was...

Oh cut the BS. I know exactly what you wrote and I said it is wrong because it is wrong! Greco has nothing to do with LPR. The techniques were Cumberland & Westmoreland like I said. There is no tripping in Greco and that was the most important wrestling technique in LPR fights. The most important wrestling chips in LPR were: the back-heel, the outside click (for for trip-blocking) and the buttock, in that order! Most other chips were not effective because the risk of counter was too great. Greco is all above the waist! Their arms are occupied with boxing. Leg wrestling was what was important. An honest mistake is one thing but now just stop proliferating bull.

And I am not related to Tim Geoghegan, that gentleman. Just the same surname.

[Robinson]

"Pro" wrestlers are not wrestlers.

You may was well start a thread saying "Boxers that starred in movies"
because most these match ups have about as much relevance to combat
sports as a good action flick does.

[HomicideHenry]

"Pro" wrestlers are not wrestlers.

You may was well start a thread saying "Boxers that starred in movies"
because most these match ups have about as much relevance to combat
sports as a good action flick does.

Most professional wrestlers today, true, are not actual wrestlers. But before the 1980's it seemed almost a mandate for every territory to have a shooter or two on the pay roll. Guys like Bob Roop were brought in to keep others in line; if the so called 'champ' refused to lose on a given night, he'd get stuck in with Roop the next time out and get his shoulder dislocated, ankle broken, elbow hyperextended, etc. Sometimes companies placed the titles on the actual shooters---hence wise guys like Lou Thesz and Ed Lewis were champions for decades, they lost only when they wanted to.

[oliverfennell]

"Pro" wrestlers are not wrestlers.

You may was well start a thread saying "Boxers that starred in movies"
because most these match ups have about as much relevance to combat
sports as a good action flick does.

Most professional wrestlers today, true, are not actual wrestlers. But before the 1980's it seemed almost a mandate for every territory to have a shooter or two on the pay roll. Guys like Bob Roop were brought in to keep others in line; if the so called 'champ' refused to lose on a given night, he'd get stuck in with Roop the next time out and get his shoulder dislocated, ankle broken, elbow hyperextended, etc. Sometimes companies placed the titles on the actual shooters---hence wise guys like Lou Thesz and Ed Lewis were champions for decades, they lost only when they wanted to.

Was Bruno Sammartino a shoot artist? That he reigned for seven years is unthinkable today.

[HomicideHenry]

I doubt that Bruno was, but the man was so strong its not hard to imagine in a business filled with actors, that the Italian strongman who could bench press 500 pounds, would have been able to take on the majority of them easily in a real contest. There is, however, some truth to Bruno pulling a shoot on Buddy Rogers. Rogers was infamous for doing 'bad business', refusing to lose, and then leaving a terriotory with their title and claim he was 'world champ' in other states. Rogers, from what I hear, refused to put over Bruno, and the result was Bruno man handled Rogers with his inverted backbreaker (much like Lex Luger's torture rack) and bent Rogers over his shoulders, making Rogers submit inside 40 seconds. Rogers left the WWWF soon after that.

[HomicideHenry]

Another shooter was The Iron Sheik. Sheik claims Bruno and himself beat the fornicate out of a few football players who were talking a bunch of bullshit to Bruno backstage. Verne Gagne, another famous shooter who trained The Iron Shiek, offered him $100,000 to break Hulk Hogan's leg, as Hogan left the AWA to work for McMahon's WWWF. Sheik didn't do it, but today he often claims he wished he would have as Hogan was a real big asshole to deal with.

[Robinson]

Even going way back to the pre WW1 days it was still a theatrical art.
It was pre determined and was mostly stiff style wrestling that was
'worked'.

Japan held on to this tradition with the UWFi and so on through the
90s, it is where men like Ken Shamrock, Masa Funaki, etc learned the
art. Sure they went legit, but they cut their teeth in the convincing
fake stuff.

To call it sport is really a discredit to Wrestling (ther REAL sport). Entertainment
it is, and Vince McMahon's greatest step was to call the WWF, WWE.

People that watch old timer matches and get wet thinking its real, have
little appreciation for grappling or real wrestling...heck even watching
the 'wins' that Takada gained in Pride were clear cut 'works' to even
the most casual of fans.

When boxers enter this domain they are performing. They are not 'fighting'.
Sure you have mis understandings (see) Berbick v Takada, where one party
things its a fake match when the other goes all out.

Or agreements to follow certain rules ie Ali vs Inoki.

But one thing MMA has done, atleast I hope, is expose just how unconvincing
and retarded pro wrestling and the martial arts are. Those that derive entertainment
out of either, good for you, but please do not mistake it for combat sport or
anything of that nature.

[oliverfennell]

Cool stories

[HomicideHenry]

I never said it was real Kym, all I'm saying is, its a known FACT that throughout the history of professional wrestling there has been three groups of wrestlers: the shooters/hookers who could break bones and knew true submissions, the journeymen who could wrestle just a little bit if the situation required it, and then there were the performers.

Dan Hodge is an excellent example. Here was a guy who was both a national standout in both amateur boxing and wrestling, being an Olympic champion wrestler, who later became a top level heavyweight boxer in the pros. He went into professional wrestling not too long after his loss to Nino Valdes. He was the hooker/shooter type, given the situation, and someone did bad business (refusing to lose), he beat the living hell out of those guys. He was one of the few men who probably would NEVER have lost in an actual wrestling contest.

Guys like him were made champions for one reason only, so that rival promotions could not be able to find someone to actually beat them. Sometimes 'bounties' would be put on peoples heads, a rival company brings in a ringer with a little wrestling know-how to over throw a rival companies champion, steal the title and bring it back home. That's why Thesz and Lewis were so great, for nobody could be found for nearly twenty years to really do the double cross on them until they got too old and ring worn to do so----in short, these guys only lost when they wanted to, if the script called for it.

Ed Lewis, Gene LeBell, Lou Thesz, Dan Hodge, Bob Roop, Steve Williams, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Frank Gotch, Joe Stetcher, Mike Rotundo, Dan Severn, Bob Backlund etc are just a few of many who were from amateur backgrounds and had a broad sense of the human anatomy---I seen videos of Dan Hodge choking guys out at the age of 70 because his knowledge of submissions were so great. Even Stu Hart has to be reknowned and respected for his knowledge of submissions and actual wrestling ability.

[Robinson]

I never said you did say it was real HH.

You can be an elite athlete in any field...but what you do in
Pro Wrassling does not lend it any credit, whether you were
a HW boxing champion or a Greco gold medalist. It is no more
real than the end fight of Lethal Weapon...

Don't get me wrong some time syou get cool stuff in it, like
the good ole Corporation days where you had Ken Shamrock
locking heads with Severn, the Harts and the Lethal weapon
or the great X-pac and Kane tag team..but it was still
a soap opera.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TrOStf1 ... r_embedded

Skip forward to 3:50 of this video Kym...

Its Bob Roop, former AAU champion and professional wrestler, in a shoot with an aspiring professional wrestler. Notice Roop's positioning and the classic 'catch' style, mixed with a little jujistu holds and locks.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iih_37tftbE

^^^Lou Thesz documentary

I must say I had the pleasure of corresponding with Lou Thesz when he worked with the HWA based in Cincinnati, Ohio along with Les Thatcher. I still figure Ed Lewis to have been the greatest of all time, but Lou Thesz is a close second. I really enjoyed talking to him and Les.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYpeVg0D-3E

^^^Oh and this ones for oliverfennell and Brutu, when they asked me about Bruno being a shooter. I mentioned earlier in this thread that Sammartino challenged Muhammad Ali to a shoot, and this interview with Sammartino it mentions that. In the interview he playfully lets the reporter beat him, and then explains that he himself doesnt care for gimmicks in wrestling.

[Robinson]

Cool vids HH.

But it is all still a performance. You do see wrestling techniques etc.
But here is the thing.... grappling like boxing is about the subtle nuances
and scrambles, shifts and grooves that make it a sport and great. Not
just walking into a position against a compliant man. Sure it looks sexy
and legit when performed, but pulling a 5 pointer of on a guy in an
actual fight or match is always sexier than doing it in a semi choregraphed
performance piece.

I did enjoy the vids though mate. You do dig up some cool stuff :)

[HomicideHenry]

Cool vids HH.

But it is all still a performance. You do see wrestling techniques etc.
But here is the thing.... grappling like boxing is about the subtle nuances
and scrambles, shifts and grooves that make it a sport and great. Not
just walking into a position against a compliant man. Sure it looks sexy
and legit when performed, but pulling a 5 pointer of on a guy in an
actual fight or match is always sexier than doing it in a semi choregraphed
performance piece.

I did enjoy the vids though mate. You do dig up some cool stuff :)

I agree that no matter how well you choreograph, its not as great in person or on film or on television, as the real thing is. However, alot of the holds, locks, etc in professional wrestling do have a basis in reality---the difference is, its a performance, and in real life nobody will 'hulk up' and easily escape a hammerlock or full nelson.

Growing up, I didnt have a high school wrestling program, I mainly taught myself how to grapple, and in an ironic sense, testing out what I saw in professional wrestling programs was apart of that. I learned quick, when wrestling with guys much older than me, that I could slip through a body scissors if I slipped my hand, arm, through the hold----I learned alot about using ones momentum against them and leverage points, through not only amateur wrestling books and serials, but through professional wrestling as well.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkbHSLywPf8

^^^Here's something you would really appreciate Kym, footage from 1929, of Ed Lewis training with Gus Soddenberg

AND................


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQl6mmAtkbE


^^^Earl Caddock vs Joe Stetcher, 1920, the quality is real shitty, but still, this 20+ minute match is kinda like boxing's version of Fitzsimmons/Corbett. Skip to 2:50 of the video, and the match proceeds from there.

[Robinson]

Wrestling here in Australia is even scarcer. I had to hunt down some euro
imports that are walking encyclopedia's they helped me gain my ears and
I have been lucky since.

Ironically they made money on the side in the 80s and 90s doing 'fake'
stuff at parties, circuses and regular shows.

"The Polish Axe"
and
"The Czechoslovakian Maniac"

[HomicideHenry]

Wrestling here in Australia is even scarcer. I had to hunt down some euro
imports that are walking encyclopedia's they helped me gain my ears and
I have been lucky since.

Ironically they made money on the side in the 80s and 90s doing 'fake'
stuff at parties, circuses and regular shows.

"The Polish Axe"
and
"The Czechoslovakian Maniac"

You'd be surprised how many professional wrestlers have sound abilities. Pat Tanaka of WWE/WCW/ECW fame used to own a gym in New Bremen, Ohio along with submission specialist Jody Poff, where Pat taught Judo and Poff more or less trained guys for amateur MMA bouts. My brother in law and I frequented the gym quite a bit. My brother in law pursued the MMA, but I didn't, kicking is NOT my forte and I much perfer submission wrestling rather than MMA style matches.

Is still funny to me that when we'd come home my brother in law outweighs me by 60 pounds, but I was more or less his sparring partner for wrestling and jujitsu, and I always stayed on the defensive, he wasn't able to slap on an effective hold on me. Makes me think sometimes if I was 240+ pounds with my know how I'd been big business but such is life I'm only 160-175 pounds.

[Robinson]

Yeah but when your slighter you look at things differently. I prefer to
tangle with bigger heavier dudes because at times they lack mobility
and struggle with some one under their chest.

Smaller guys..say a good 185lber and up with some conditioning and
talent now that is draining to catch up to. I am small for my div, I
am doing my darndest to get the skills up and conditioning where I
want it so I can beat some behemoths. This year I hopes !

[HomicideHenry]

Big men, in my experience, whether it was boxing or wrestling, I'd perfer 9x's out of 10, than I would someone my own size or smaller. That sounds crazy to some, but in wrestling a big man is much easier to take down than a small man, because their center of gravity is much more accessible. I hear sometimes guys speculate how well Andre The Giant would have done in a shoot against a knowledgable wrestler, and the answer's obvious to anyone who knows the ins and outs, that Andre would have been taken down rather easily. Big men in boxing, if they aint well equipped in speed and ring generalship, are easy to break down once you get passed the reach and guard. Small men, are more flexible, more conditioned, more faster, and more tricky. Little men can slip through and counter, whether thats boxing or wrestling, its a genuine fact.

[Robinson]

But some times....when you have a guy that is just a bit bigger
and stronger and they know the game well... its just too hard.

One day I will be that awesome ninja guy that gets his 80s
montage...one day...:)

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8nNEj2vnnY

^^^Surviving The Dungeon, The Legacy of Stu Hart is a 14-15 part documentary on YouTube about Stu training guys in his basement.

[zojo]

Wrestling here in Australia is even scarcer. I had to hunt down some euro
imports that are walking encyclopedia's they helped me gain my ears and
I have been lucky since.

Ironically they made money on the side in the 80s and 90s doing 'fake'
stuff at parties, circuses and regular shows.

"The Polish Axe"
and
"The Czechoslovakian Maniac"

Back in 2004, The Aussie Sports Commission deemed wrestling a "sport to be saved" and they were sending out grant money to clubs. Has there been a trickle-down effect yet? I left Australia (and thus wrestling in Australia) back in 2005. Has there been an increase in the sport since then?

[Mr E]

What I wrote was...

Oh cut the BS. I know exactly what you wrote and I said it is wrong because it is wrong! Greco has nothing to do with LPR. The techniques were Cumberland & Westmoreland like I said. There is no tripping in Greco and that was the most important wrestling technique in LPR fights. The most important wrestling chips in LPR were: the back-heel, the outside click (for for trip-blocking) and the buttock, in that order! Most other chips were not effective because the risk of counter was too great. Greco is all above the waist! Their arms are occupied with boxing. Leg wrestling was what was important. An honest mistake is one thing but now just stop proliferating bull.

And I am not related to Tim Geoghegan, that gentleman. Just the same surname.

Buddy, lighten up. What you say about Greco is absolutely right, no question about it -- no tripping, above the waist, all true. It could be, and sounds like it probably is, that my knowledge of LPR "wrestling" technique is seriously incomplete, so let me ask you: is it your position that NONE of the "above-the-waist" techniques now used in greco were employed in LPR or just that they were not the most useful techniques? I train in BJJ and we do a fair amount of MMA and boxing sparring along with it and, risk of counter or not, a lot of the stand up (above-the-waist) grappling techniques that I think of as stemming from greco are helpful. On the other hand, now that I really think about it, most of those are used as segueways to take-downs and other moves that would not have been available to LPR participants. Hmmm... I'm sort of convincing myself that I'm probably wrong....

[Robinson]

Wrestling here in Australia is even scarcer. I had to hunt down some euro
imports that are walking encyclopedia's they helped me gain my ears and
I have been lucky since.

Ironically they made money on the side in the 80s and 90s doing 'fake'
stuff at parties, circuses and regular shows.

"The Polish Axe"
and
"The Czechoslovakian Maniac"

Back in 2004, The Aussie Sports Commission deemed wrestling a "sport to be saved" and they were sending out grant money to clubs. Has there been a trickle-down effect yet? I left Australia (and thus wrestling in Australia) back in 2005. Has there been an increase in the sport since then?

The money is there. Just not the coaches or any one with knowledge or experience
to coach and train the kids that DO want to learn it. Their are no clubs around and
no true exposure of the sport whether in the media or in the schools. The youngest
wrestling coach in Adelaide is 52. There are some younger lads in their 20s that
have been training...but will they coach ?

The way the sport is surviving is in an impure way. BJJers and MMAers are training with
those wrestlers that are around to help with their games. But as for the sport of
wrestling expanding who knows ? I competed in the last Greco Roman nationals in 2005,
Greco has all but gone as a sport here, now we have just freestyle and with FILA changing
the rules often it mnakes it harder for the old timers to keep up let alone the younger gen.

Wrestling is certainly a sport that needs to be saved, and no amount of money will
do it unless it is directed and focuses properly.