dberry wrote:I think it's absolutely remarkable that a boxer, under the pressure of battle, against another boxer who is moving, ducking weaving and guarding can be so accurate as to punch there thumb into the other boxers eye at will. I never new Larry Holmes was that good but there you go. I have a new found respect for Mr. Holmes' ability.
if you want to thumb someone you would generally do it in the clinch where the head's more stationary. So i would imagine. i'm sure gran will be happy to fill you in with more detail on thumbing technique.
dberry wrote:I think it's absolutely remarkable that a boxer, under the pressure of battle, against another boxer who is moving, ducking weaving and guarding can be so accurate as to punch there thumb into the other boxers eye at will. I never new Larry Holmes was that good but there you go. I have a new found respect for Mr. Holmes' ability.
if you want to thumb someone you would generally do it in the clinch where the head's more stationary. So i would imagine. i'm sure gran will be happy to fill you in with more detail on thumbing technique.
My impression from seeing many of Holmes' bouts, is that the thumbing is the result of flicking a "loose jab", recklessly open glove, knowing the accidental infliction the thumb creates. The Three Stooges were way more blatant in their fingering techniques but equally aware as Holmes. His "accuracy" was a result of volume rather than marksmanship. But I agree, he was a great boxer, fast hands with a terrific jab. But I saw so many bouts where the thumbing was an issue before the bout started and did play out that I don't buy a whole lot about repeated accidental aspect.
Folks don't kid yourselves and try to come up with technical explanations or excuses.
This is pro boxing, Millions of $ are involved at the high levels and many of our legends ocassionally resorted to dirty tactics. Remember Fritzie Zivic who said -The youth of today are so naive that they think the laces are for tying up the gloves."
Harry Greb and Fritizie Zivic were notorious for pushing the envelope and were not DQ'd because they knew how far to go with their tactics. Ali would often hold and punch. Holmes could really pop that thumb in your eye and did it often. I've seen Toney miss with a hook and pop with an elbow more than once.
Tyson is in a class by himself. He's not a dirty fighter but a total nut job.
dberry wrote:I think it's absolutely remarkable that a boxer, under the pressure of battle, against another boxer who is moving, ducking weaving and guarding can be so accurate as to punch there thumb into the other boxers eye at will. I never new Larry Holmes was that good but there you go. I have a new found respect for Mr. Holmes' ability.
if you want to thumb someone you would generally do it in the clinch where the head's more stationary. So i would imagine. i'm sure gran will be happy to fill you in with more detail on thumbing technique.
I think you can add Jody Ballard to this list.
He had to have an operation for a detached retina in 1982.
He was Larry Holmes main sparring partner,when Holmes was in training to fight Gerry Cooney.
granberry wrote:Boxing writers knew so little about the subject by the time Holmes was fighting that they actually ridiculed Scott Frank for complaining that Holmes thumbed him.
However I disagree with you that "thumbing" was the only reason Holmes beat Ali. I think Ali was simply to old to compete and Holmes was the better man on that night.
do not pretend i am an expert by any means, but
couldn't it be that great jabbers are more likely to
thumb guys than people who work more on hooks,
right hands or upper cuts? and with holmes being
among best jabbers of all time ...
and i doubt that holmes' thumb was hurt so much on
the occasion of hitting the eye, but rather when the
jab missed and the thumb smashed anywhere on
head/cheek/jaw.
BoxBuzz wrote:
Sounds like we agree on the thumbless glove. Or does it have drawbacks?
In the mid 80's when the AMA was hot on amateur boxing trying to get it banned thinking if they get rid of the amateurs, then the pros will follow, a thumbless glove was designed. Everlast came up with it and had a patent on it. It wasn't the best designed glove but for a short while, the NY athletic commission used it in the pros and told the AMA how they are trying to make boxing safer. The pros never liked it and complained. It did get used in college boxing for many years and Everlast came up with a better design which was quite good but since the other equipment companies could not make it without paying Everlast some royalties it eventually dropped off the radar as many of the college teams wanted to buy their equipment from other companies and the demand was not great enough for Everlast to continue making it.
With the early thumbless gloves, you couldn't make a good fist as the thumb could not curl around the fingers but later it could with the new designed. It would be good for boxing to try using it again but pro boxing is screwed up in so many ways when they have so many alphabet organizations running things and they don't agree on much so I doubt you will ever see thumbless gloves again.
granberry wrote:Duran's thumbing of Davey Moore to "win"
What gets me every time watching Moore taking that sustained beating is Duran rubbing his laces down his face. It's so blantant and in your face (no pun intended) and is clearly intentional.
Brutu wrote:Larry Holmes had 23 more prof fights then Scott Frank did going into that fight.
It was Franks only professional loss.
Anyone know if the Frank-Snipes fight was televised?
I think one of Frank Scotts amateur fights when he fought and beat a Russian aired on ABC WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS in 1977.
Yes, the Frank-Snipes fight was Televised. I watched it and believe Frank was lucky to get a draw.
On the thumbing: I don't know what Larry's intentions were, I'm sure some of the geniuses here know for sure, but Holmes often threw jabs with an open glove. An open glove gives you an extra inch or so which can turn a miss into a score. Of course this takes some of the power away and also increases the chance of thumbing someone.
After almost getting knocked out in the first 2 rounds -- Lennox Lewis's first right hand punch in the 3rd versus Vitali Klitschko was a classic thumb strike -- which just grazed the eyelid with a twist of the wrist and sliced open a small nick... Then Lewis grabbed Klitschko around the neck and rubbed his head in the wound -- and while holding-n-hitting ripped open 3 cuts on the left eyelid and cheek with a right handed palm slash.. That all happened in the first 20 seconds of the 3rd.. When they came out of the clinch Vitali's face was pouring blood.. Later in the fight Lou Moret gave Lewis a split-second sign language warning for flagrantly palming Klitschko in the face -- without even stopping the action... Lewis didn't even look at him.
A few years later Robert Guerrero administered thumb strikes and scores other fouls to Andre Berto -- as Lou Moret was again refereeing... As Guerrero held Berto's head with his left hand and battered him with his right in flagrant holding-n-hitting Max Kellerman shouted "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS" ... The HBO crew laughed at Kellerman's remark, because it was true... It was the most flagrantly fouling seen since Lennox Lewis... As the bell ended the 12th round Guerrero kept throwing punches... The bell kept clanging away as he threw about 15 or 20 more punches after the final bell.
Those are things you DON'T do unless you have an understanding with the referee that he'll only issue warnings -- and won't take any points.
i believe certain fighters have "habits"
that allow fouls more often and in a
way that by itself is a dirty tactic. to
me that is the case with both the
thumbs of larry and the head butts
of evander.
especially the flicking of the jab from
a relatively lose side position with the
non closed glove can result in thumbing
in my opinion. as evander's tucked in
chin in forward motion could result in
butting.
in my view both men's fouls were a
result of these "habits". i don't think
either went for a foul with a specific
move, but they were aware that their
habit would occasionally result in one.
unlike tyson for example, who very
intentionally half broke the ellbows
of opponents at the opposite side of
the ref.
enrique wrote:Folks don't kid yourselves and try to come up with technical explanations or excuses.
This is pro boxing, Millions of $ are involved at the high levels and many of our legends ocassionally resorted to dirty tactics. Remember Fritzie Zivic who said -The youth of today are so naive that they think the laces are for tying up the gloves."
Harry Greb and Fritizie Zivic were notorious for pushing the envelope and were not DQ'd because they knew how far to go with their tactics. Ali would often hold and punch. Holmes could really pop that thumb in your eye and did it often. I've seen Toney miss with a hook and pop with an elbow more than once.
Tyson is in a class by himself. He's not a dirty fighter but a total nut job.
Boxing has rules... If you're going to ignore rules for select people because you're a referee who's on the take -- then they have to clear suspect officials out and replace them with honest officials who will call fouls on everybody.
man wrote:i believe certain fighters have "habits"
that allow fouls more often and in a
way that by itself is a dirty tactic. to
me that is the case with both the
thumbs of larry and the head butts
of evander.
especially the flicking of the jab from
a relatively lose side position with the
non closed glove can result in thumbing
in my opinion. as evander's tucked in
chin in forward motion could result in
butting.
in my view both men's fouls were a
result of these "habits". i don't think
either went for a foul with a specific
move, but they were aware that their
habit would occasionally result in one.
unlike tyson for example, who very
intentionally half broke the ellbows
of opponents at the opposite side of
the ref.
