OVERRATED CHAMPIONS!.... WHO AND WHY!....
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Syntax Error
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 08:00
Jones avoided Eubank, Benn, Collins among others at Super-Middle... then that guy at Light-heavy whose name I can't spell.... I know people are going to say he could have beaten them all but he didn't fight them its like if Ali hadn't fought Norton, Lyle, Quarry, Shavers... it makes a difference... plus the general standered of Jones opponents was woeful except Hopkins and Toney and they were just one offs. Jones doesn't deserve 'greatness' imo.
Same with Hamed, should go down as a good fighter who didn't realise his talent fully... he was good but not 'great'.
Same with Hamed, should go down as a good fighter who didn't realise his talent fully... he was good but not 'great'.
To be fair I think you would have had a lot of trouble getting Eubank in the ring with Jones he certainly gives that impression in his book any way, but I think Benn would have loved the chance.silkov wrote:Jones avoided Eubank, Benn, Collins among others at Super-Middle... then that guy at Light-heavy whose name I can't spell.... I know people are going to say he could have beaten them all but he didn't fight them its like if Ali hadn't fought Norton, Lyle, Quarry, Shavers... it makes a difference... plus the general standered of Jones opponents was woeful except Hopkins and Toney and they were just one offs. Jones doesn't deserve 'greatness' imo.
Same with Hamed, should go down as a good fighter who didn't realise his talent fully... he was good but not 'great'.
The link below is to an article where the've done one of them computor simulations to try and judge how well Eubank, Benn, Collins, McClellan and Liles would have done against Jones.
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box2-00.htm#roy
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jamesmcdonnell
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 06:11
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Jones didn't duck anyone and like I have said before his competition was very good. It's just that he was so much better than anyone else that many get the impression that his opponents were bums. But then again, a lot of the people that I see who try to argue that Jones fought bums were not even watching boxing during the earlier part of his career and in that sense they have no idea about some of the very good fighters that Jones fought and beat!
Jorge Vaca, a former champion, was coming off some very impressive wins and performances before Jones starched him, go back and check out his record.
Jorge Castro, a future champion, may not be the best tactician, but he was a very good fighter.
Thulane Malinga would go on to win Nigel Benn’s WBC title (and people say Jones ducked Benn).
Thomas Tate was a very skilled and very good boxer who had taken the brutal punching Julian Jackson the distance for the first time in several years, yet Jones destroyed him quick!
Vinny Pazienza certainly won’t get any style trophies, but he was hard man to put down and stop and Jones did it with ease.
Tony Thornton was a really good fighter that held his own and had some very close bouts with James Toney, Chris Eubank and Steve Collins, but Jones did what he does best, dominated Thornton.
Need I go on further, I certainly can? Anyone who says that the boxers Jones faced were bums, or hand-picked daisies, well they really just don’t know what their talking about, primarily because they more than likely haven’t seen any of Jones’ opponents fight. I would be interested in hearing some theories about some of Jones’ opponents. But I would really like to hear more than just stuff like, oh he sucks, try to explain why, or what about the fighter sucks!
Jorge Vaca, a former champion, was coming off some very impressive wins and performances before Jones starched him, go back and check out his record.
Jorge Castro, a future champion, may not be the best tactician, but he was a very good fighter.
Thulane Malinga would go on to win Nigel Benn’s WBC title (and people say Jones ducked Benn).
Thomas Tate was a very skilled and very good boxer who had taken the brutal punching Julian Jackson the distance for the first time in several years, yet Jones destroyed him quick!
Vinny Pazienza certainly won’t get any style trophies, but he was hard man to put down and stop and Jones did it with ease.
Tony Thornton was a really good fighter that held his own and had some very close bouts with James Toney, Chris Eubank and Steve Collins, but Jones did what he does best, dominated Thornton.
Need I go on further, I certainly can? Anyone who says that the boxers Jones faced were bums, or hand-picked daisies, well they really just don’t know what their talking about, primarily because they more than likely haven’t seen any of Jones’ opponents fight. I would be interested in hearing some theories about some of Jones’ opponents. But I would really like to hear more than just stuff like, oh he sucks, try to explain why, or what about the fighter sucks!
Re: re
I've not said Jones sucks and I'm not denying that he was a very good boxer my main point is that his image as some superhuman fighter is overrated. I've watched all Jones fights and the majority of his competition was indeed limited imo... some may have been 'champions' but that is in an era of more champions than contenders.barry wrote:Jones didn't duck anyone and like I have said before his competition was very good. It's just that he was so much better than anyone else that many get the impression that his opponents were bums. But then again, a lot of the people that I see who try to argue that Jones fought bums were not even watching boxing during the earlier part of his career and in that sense they have no idea about some of the very good fighters that Jones fought and beat!
Jorge Vaca, a former champion, was coming off some very impressive wins and performances before Jones starched him, go back and check out his record.
Jorge Castro, a future champion, may not be the best tactician, but he was a very good fighter.
Thulane Malinga would go on to win Nigel Benn’s WBC title (and people say Jones ducked Benn).
Thomas Tate was a very skilled and very good boxer who had taken the brutal punching Julian Jackson the distance for the first time in several years, yet Jones destroyed him quick!
Vinny Pazienza certainly won’t get any style trophies, but he was hard man to put down and stop and Jones did it with ease.
Tony Thornton was a really good fighter that held his own and had some very close bouts with James Toney, Chris Eubank and Steve Collins, but Jones did what he does best, dominated Thornton.
Need I go on further, I certainly can? Anyone who says that the boxers Jones faced were bums, or hand-picked daisies, well they really just don’t know what their talking about, primarily because they more than likely haven’t seen any of Jones’ opponents fight. I would be interested in hearing some theories about some of Jones’ opponents. But I would really like to hear more than just stuff like, oh he sucks, try to explain why, or what about the fighter sucks!
Also Jones failed drug test which was swept under the carpet brings into question just how much his skills were 'natural' and may also point to a reason why Jones was always against fighting abroad as a pro.
re
>>>Also Jones failed drug test which was swept under the carpet brings into question just how much his skills were 'natural' and may also point to a reason why Jones was always against fighting abroad as a pro.<<<
That's just ridiculous! Surely you can't be serious! Also, I never stated that you said Jones sucked.
That's just ridiculous! Surely you can't be serious! Also, I never stated that you said Jones sucked.
Said it before and I'll say it again - Jones is probably the most gifted fighter of this generation. The fact that bile spewed forth from his mouth most of the time takes away from what I consider to be a fact
Barely lost a round in 50 odd fights - how many other fighters can have this said about them? None that I can think of
Barely lost a round in 50 odd fights - how many other fighters can have this said about them? None that I can think of
Re: re
It's not ridiculous, the failed drug test was widely publicised about a year or so ago and it took place in 2000 if I remember correctly, I have seen a copy of the paperwork, it was all hushed up by the WBC ...surely you know about this?. I'm not saying that it totally negates how good Roy was but it definately takes the shine off imo.barry wrote:>>>Also Jones failed drug test which was swept under the carpet brings into question just how much his skills were 'natural' and may also point to a reason why Jones was always against fighting abroad as a pro.<<<
That's just ridiculous! Surely you can't be serious! Also, I never stated that you said Jones sucked.
Read about this but can't recall why it wasn't tkaen any further
A question however - the only drug I can think of that may give Jones any type of physical advantage may be an amphetamine based one. All the steroid based ones would have been detrimental. Does anyone know what drug he was busted for?
A question however - the only drug I can think of that may give Jones any type of physical advantage may be an amphetamine based one. All the steroid based ones would have been detrimental. Does anyone know what drug he was busted for?
[quote="bollox"]Read about this but can't recall why it wasn't tkaen any further
A question however - the only drug I can think of that may give Jones any type of physical advantage may be an amphetamine based one. All the steroid based ones would have been detrimental. Does anyone know what drug he was busted for?[/qu
I think it was steriods... they can help someone gain muscle while retaining speed... the story came out quite a while after the event, from what I can remember when it actually happened the WBC took no action and it was just basically hushed up.
It was reported in Boxing News.
A question however - the only drug I can think of that may give Jones any type of physical advantage may be an amphetamine based one. All the steroid based ones would have been detrimental. Does anyone know what drug he was busted for?[/qu
I think it was steriods... they can help someone gain muscle while retaining speed... the story came out quite a while after the event, from what I can remember when it actually happened the WBC took no action and it was just basically hushed up.
It was reported in Boxing News.
Not at all, steroids when used a certain way can considerably boost both strength, speed and stamina, that is why many track athletes who rely on speed have been using it and other 'enhancers' for years... remember Ben Johnson, and more recently Marion Jones.... it is rife amongst athletes and track stars.....bollox wrote:Can't see how steroids would help. Building unnatural bulk surely would add strength but severely hinder things in the stamina and speed departments over the course of a longer fight?
hmmm always thought they were useful for the 'short sharp burst' sports such as sprinting rather than endurance sports. But then again every man and his dog is on something in the Tour De Francesilkov wrote:Not at all, steroids when used a certain way can considerably boost both strength, speed and stamina, that is why many track athletes who rely on speed have been using it and other 'enhancers' for years... remember Ben Johnson, and more recently Marion Jones.... it is rife amongst athletes and track stars.....bollox wrote:Can't see how steroids would help. Building unnatural bulk surely would add strength but severely hinder things in the stamina and speed departments over the course of a longer fight?
Jones had all the tools and the physical attributes but his record is full of nobodies with a few fighters thrown in (Toney, Hopkins). I agree that he barely lost a round but all the greats come up against adversity at some point in their careers and when they do they prove their greatness. Jones folded the first time he met with adversity (just like Tyson and Hamed). Can anyone imagine Tarver or Johnson scoring a KO against Spinks or Qawi at 175??? Why didn't he fight DM (Jones would have been the favourite)? Maybe Roy is all too aware that he doesn't have a world class chin.
As for the Ruiz win... well, it was hardly that impressive. The ref put a stop to Ruiz's holding tactics and he was never a true world chap anyway. Ezzard Charles moved from middle to heavy and fought real contenders and real world champions.
As for the Ruiz win... well, it was hardly that impressive. The ref put a stop to Ruiz's holding tactics and he was never a true world chap anyway. Ezzard Charles moved from middle to heavy and fought real contenders and real world champions.
re
>>>Jones had all the tools and the physical attributes but his record is full of nobodies with a few fighters thrown in (Toney, Hopkins). I agree that he barely lost a round but all the greats come up against adversity at some point in their careers and when they do they prove their greatness. Jones folded the first time he met with adversity (just like Tyson and Hamed). Can anyone imagine Tarver or Johnson scoring a KO against Spinks or Qawi at 175??? Why didn't he fight DM (Jones would have been the favourite)? Maybe Roy is all too aware that he doesn't have a world class chin.<<<
I hear this time and again, but I have yet heard anyone back up their claim by listing what makes the opponents that Jones fought nobodies.
Will you please do what no one else seems willing to do and give us a little summary about all of the opponents that you consider to be nobodies?
I hear this time and again, but I have yet heard anyone back up their claim by listing what makes the opponents that Jones fought nobodies.
Will you please do what no one else seems willing to do and give us a little summary about all of the opponents that you consider to be nobodies?
Okay, fair point Barry, not nobodies but hardly the standard of opposition of Hagler, Monzon, Charles, Burley, Moore, Robinson.
I'd pick 4 names off Roy's record Toney, Hopkins, McCallum and Hill (and the last 2 were past it when he fought them). That's not a lot of talent to make the kinds of claims I soemtimes hear from boxing fans.
If I took the time to compare with the fighters I name above then I think you'd see a much higher number. Part of the problem is that Roy picked fights here and there where as Hagler, Monzon etc... fought everyone they could. Roy might have won more rounds than anyone but he has never been able to turn a fight around once things went against him. He is a great fighter, but not in the same league as the others I mention.
I'd pick 4 names off Roy's record Toney, Hopkins, McCallum and Hill (and the last 2 were past it when he fought them). That's not a lot of talent to make the kinds of claims I soemtimes hear from boxing fans.
If I took the time to compare with the fighters I name above then I think you'd see a much higher number. Part of the problem is that Roy picked fights here and there where as Hagler, Monzon etc... fought everyone they could. Roy might have won more rounds than anyone but he has never been able to turn a fight around once things went against him. He is a great fighter, but not in the same league as the others I mention.
