Factual error (Colin Hart) in boxing column in Sun online

[Deserter]

glyn built his magazine with balls knowledge and money and enthusiasm but is he a great writer? Not really no.

Actually, Glyn is something more important than a great writer - he's a great editor. If he had been a great writer and a crap editor, BM would have closed many moons ago, trust me.
It's a great editor who builds a magazine, not a great writer - anyone who thinks otherwise knows nothing about the professsion.

[jessi]

glyn built his magazine with balls knowledge and money and enthusiasm but is he a great writer? Not really no.

Actually, Glyn is something more important than a great writer - he's a great editor. If he had been a great writer and a crap editor, BM would have closed many moons ago, trust me.
It's a great editor who builds a magazine, not a great writer - anyone who thinks otherwise knows nothing about the professsion.

Wow, i finally agree with you !

[Deserter]

glyn built his magazine with balls knowledge and money and enthusiasm but is he a great writer? Not really no.

Actually, Glyn is something more important than a great writer - he's a great editor. If he had been a great writer and a crap editor, BM would have closed many moons ago, trust me.
It's a great editor who builds a magazine, not a great writer - anyone who thinks otherwise knows nothing about the professsion.

Wow, i finally agree with you !

I talk sense some of the time

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

glyn built his magazine with balls knowledge and money and enthusiasm but is he a great writer? Not really no

Agreed on the balls, enthusiasm and not a great writer front, but knowledge and money, no mate, not at all.

At the point I was employed by the company that owned and started BM, I was no more knowledgeable than the average hardcore fan of that era, which was pre internet and a lot different than today, with the masses of readily available information in circulation and a far more more knowledgeable fanbase (a fantastic development, in my opinion). It was only once in the job and gaining greater access to boxing figures that I became more knowledgeable than a fan. And I certainly had no journalistic/publishing/anything remotely linked knowledge, nor academic qualifications (four scraper-pass O levels aside), if it comes to that.

And there was no money around, the company that owned BM was in receivership for the second time and with a mountain of debt when myself and my business partner (both employees under the old regimes) picked up the title on tick and blagged our way through the first couple of years, which I spent most of sleeping on the office floor because we were so skint that we could only take a subsistence amount from the company until the debt was cleared and the money began to trickle in.

What I would add to the list of personal attributes you list which enabled me to 'build' BM, just for the record, would be work experience (gained in totally non related areas such as warehouses and a pizza factory, but all surprisingly valid), work ethic, and sheer willpower and determination.

On the latter points — willpower and determination — I think you do Bunce a bit of a disservice by saying anyone could have started out like he did, trying to get copy into newspapers. It's not about 'could', it's about 'would'. It's not so much a career choice as a lifestyle choice, and not everyone is cut out for a life where you're wondering where the next penny will come from for literally years. You have to really want it. And Bunce did — and still does. I respect that.

I know what you're saying. Basically it's okay to be a bit of a slacker, even a bit thick. It doesn't matter if you scrape through school and end up slopping out buckets in a pizza shop or, sweeping up in a warehouse for a few years because there's a lucky break out there waiting for everybody, and you just got keep your eyes peeled and believe it hard enough and one day you will have your dream job.
I think that message will warm the hearts of a lot of people on here. Inspiring

Now that is not how I read it, what he says is that you have to want it. Talent isn't enough! There are people who would wipe the floor with Bunce in writing and public speaking on here but they don't want it badly as he wants it and that is why he is there. Here is an excellent saying from the first president of Nigeria, Benjamin Nnamdi Azikiwe

"There is plenty of room at the top because very few people care to travel beyond the average route. And so most of us seem satisfied to remain within the confines of mediocrity"

And that is basically it, people complain about the likes of James Corden and Russell Brand becoming rich on their 'comedy talents' when there are many people funnier than them. The real funny people are not out there putting themselves forward and taking the risks and thus Corden and Brand will always make a living. Azikiwe is right! Not enough of us will take the risk and are happy to sit in our own shit and moan about it whilst point at others and complain about how shite they are.

[n1ebf]

i was joking you know? I happen to agree.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

i was joking you know? I happen to agree.

You forgot to put your on the end of the paragraph you dozy git!

Bunce will be tearing his bald spot out now.

[Glyn Leach]

I don't know why you bothered with all that hard work, sacrifice and dedication Glyn, with your voice you could have easily won the X-Factor and become a celebrity almost overnight...

... and as Hooky correctly points out, I'm a terrific singer. That helped a lot with the busking for my supper in the early days. Plus there's my break dancing ability, which I keep in reserve.

Seriously though, as NEBF said (dunno if he was taking the pee or not!), it's all about having a go really. I don't agree with the 'mystification' of 'jobs', the 'I can't do that' syndrome. It's the old punk rock ethic: Who cares if you can't play an instrument, start a band anyway. I was pushing 30 and I'd never touched a typewriter (remember those?) in my life until I got a job on Boxing Weekly, which led to BM (same company at that time). I knew I could work hard and organise things, but that was about it. The rest was down to wanting it.

Can we get back to slagging Bunce off now please?

(By the way, good point by Ron Lewis about Harty having done Quigg in his column.)

[Captain Hook]

Yes, on a serious note well done Glyn, you're an inspiration to us all mate...(seriously, I'm not taking the piss)

I think Quigg was used as an example; I can't think of too many other prospects Hart's mentioned in past years, though I agree he's streets ahead of Sheehan.

Then again, who isn't?

There aren't many avenues open to boxing writers, and I think what people are trying to get across is that for every Leach there's a Hart or a Sheehan.

These jobs are few and far between so it would be nice to get the cream of the crop taking them, rather than people stuck in the past or with little knowledge of the sport.

That said, you guys are right, if people want it, they should go for it rather than complaining.

From a personal perspective, I'm business editor of a daily newspaper and have my own boxing column as well in the sports pages. I'm more than happy with my lot and have worked damn hard to get here. I'm 33 but have more than a decade's experience on news, sport, business..you name it!

It's a tough game, and anyone within it (as Glyn knows all too well) doesn't get involved for the money. Journalism pays buttons compared with most trades, but it can be so, so rewarding and that's why I love it.

PS 10 years ago this week I was in Bosnia with the UN...this thread has been almost as scary at times :)

[Glyn Leach]

There are virtually no opportunities for writers these day Hooky. That said, it isn't impossible, the BN lads weren't around not that long ago but look what a terrific job they've done. It's not as though the talent isn't out there, as Mugabi says there are plenty of knowledgeable people who can write a bit on the internet these days. But breaking through into the paid ranks is very very difficult and something that by and large belongs to a bygone era. I imagine that at some point internet writing will begin to pay, which will provide opportunities for those who want to take them. The whole shape of things is bound to change.

PS Bosnia? PM me if you don't want to blurb it, interested mate.

[Captain Hook]

Yeah true, all depends on advertising I guess mate.

With regards Bosnia, I was a 23-year-old reporter sent there to interview and spend time with the International Police Task Force.

The commander for the Sarajevo region, which is where I was based for 10 days, was from Rhyl (Payne will love that!) and he invited me.

I travelled all over the country speaking to officers from all over Wales and the north west and came back to write up stories for the local dailies and regionals, including the MEN, Daily Post Visitor Series and the Liverpool Echo.

The IPTF was policing the country after the war. It was an amazing place, an experience I'll never forget.

I wasn't allowed to walk on the grass as there were still landmines everywhere....saw some serious shit while I was out there, the people were really messed up, understandably.

[T.M.K]

I agree he's streets ahead of Sheehan.

Then again, who isn't?

Erm........ ....... erm ........ erm no, cannot think of anyone who isn't streets ahead of Sheehan.

There aren't many avenues open to boxing writers, and I think what people are trying to get across is that for every Leach there's a Hart or a Sheehan.

That should be edited to simply: "for every Leach there's a Sheehan" (poor old Hart being thrown in with PS ).

These jobs are few and far between so it would be nice to get the cream of the crop taking them, rather than people stuck in the past or with little knowledge of the sport

Can we credit Sheehan with having enough knowledge for it to be classed as "little"?

That said, you guys are right, if people want it, they should go for it rather than complaining.

Dear "The Sun" (does it count if I don't really care who takes over and am not in the slightest bit fussed if it isn't me?)


Col "T.M.K" Harris



ps: just for the record, writers and our opinions of them can change - Gareth A. Davies used to be awful a few years back and I cringed when I read his stuff, but the man in 2010/2011 has done some brilliant stuff. I am probably willing to eat my hat if Sheehan manages to turn it around though.

[Captain Hook]

You'd be perfect Colin :)

There wouldn't be a hint of sarcasm in your column either! Yeah right...

[Buncey]

Here we go, as promised...
... it's the BBC London's 94.9 Boxing Hour tonight (3/2/11) between 8-9pm tonight. It's also available online and as a listen again/BBC iPlayer/ipod after the show has broadcast.
Tonight....Junior Witter live....Jimmy Tibbs on a life in boxing...Leon Williams on his fight this Saturday...Ron Boddy on the London amateur boxing scene....Frank Maloney on fights that fall out of bed...your emails!

Send to: [email protected]

Hand on heart, I thought that everybody agreed that Ali would not give George a second chance and that Lennox never met a prime Holyfield, Tyson or Bowe..I didn't think that I was being arrogant...I thought it was me stating the bleeding obvious. Well, there you go!
Can I just say that the Jimmy Tibbs stuff is dynamite...I have split it in half and will do the final segment with Watson and Benn next week. It's amazing stuff.


Adios and enjoy.

[Scottrf]

Hand on heart, I thought that everybody agreed that Ali would not give George a second chance and that Lennox never met a prime Holyfield, Tyson or Bowe..

It's only the term 'ducking' people had an issue with. It suggests one is scared to fight the other (lack of courage etc), and fully to blame. Anyway, it was a week ago so not trying to get back into it again.

[n1ebf]

when it comes to Boxing writing I'm partial to James Lawton personally. :geek2:

[earsjohn]

Boxing as a sport is blessed with wonderful writers, in much the same way as it is with films - no other sport comes close in terms of providing such a rich tapestry onto which great stories, both fact and fiction, can be told.

I do like Donald McRae - his Dark Trade book and his interviews/profiles are essential reading. As a long time Guardian reader ( ) I've always had a soft spot for Kevin Mitchell and Hugh McIlvenney too.

[Poncey]

Can someone please clarify if Buncey really is playing Spiderman in the new film? Does Payne have the Hollywood insight?

500 bonus points for Glyn referencing American Trilogy.

[n1ebf]

I do like Donald McRae - his Dark Trade book and his interviews/profiles are essential reading. As a long time Guardian reader ( ) I've always had a soft spot for Kevin Mitchell and Hugh McIlvenney too.

There are 2 books on my bedside table, one is the King James Bible and the other is McIlvanney On Boxing by Hugh McIlvanney. I am not aware of any other, higher authority.

[Bricks]

well i think page 6 of this thread has been very illuminating......i think what stands out in both hooky and glyns posts is .....character.....which is allied to integrity and discipline......the discipline glyn had to build an industry standard magazine 22 years and counting in an age when the printed page is declining faster than any time in civilisation.......i agree a great editor eclipses a great writer every time..........ultimately just like the printed press, a boxing forum needs its share of integrity in posters...could do and should do are a big big difference as mentioned by others......take tris dixon.....the way he looked for legends and wrote stories on them post career...wouldnt have been economically viable if he just wanted to make money....but he took the hit for years and now as an editor he realises that in a world of instant access to news and comment....a magazine that reports on monthly or weekly news needs something different than just reporting on hot news items....thats why i enjoy the features on 80s and 90s guys like barkley so much........

[n1ebf]

well i think page 6 of this thread has been very illuminating......i think what stands out in both hooky and glyns posts is .....character.....which is allied to integrity and discipline......the discipline glyn had to build an industry standard magazine 22 years and counting in an age when the printed page is declining faster than any time in civilisation.......i agree a great editor eclipses a great writer every time..........ultimately just like the printed press, a boxing forum needs its share of integrity in posters...could do and should do are a big big difference as mentioned by others......take tris dixon.....the way he looked for legends and wrote stories on them post career...wouldnt have been economically viable if he just wanted to make money....but he took the hit for years and now as an editor he realises that in a world of instant access to news and comment....a magazine that reports on monthly or weekly news needs something different than just reporting on hot news items....thats why i enjoy the features on 80s and 90s guys like barkley so much........

not to mention Mugabi, mugabi...

[Bricks]

indeed! the boxing monthly feature on john mugabi was great.. id love to see a definitive article on honeyghan as well

[Tarquin Tarpaulin V]

A bit late to find this thread but i'm still reeling at Bunceys suggestion that Ron Stander would NOT win a world title today.

Amongst his victims was one Thad Spencer who's resume includes victories over Bodell, Brian London, Ernie Terrell, Doug Jones (who lost by decision to Ali and beat Zora Folley and Bob Foster in back to back fights). So the man beat the man who beat fighters who were in a queue at a time when there was a plethora of heavyweight talent.

Although it's clear that Ron was a fill in fight when he was KO'd by Joe Frazier, who one fight later danced to the tune of Foremans bombs, he had at least engineered a position whereby opportunities came his way. He did get to fight for a world title.

Need a comparison?

Oliver Mccall, who gained a reputation as a puncher despite having plenty of decisions and a couple of losses in his first thirty fights won the world title and defended it successfully against Larry Holmes.

So fast forward to today, when a well managed Derek Chisora gets within a whisker of fighting for the big one, where Audley Harrison gets a title shot and tell me that Ron Stander wouldn't have a chance.

Still not convinced? Who was the first person to KO big punching Earnie Shavers? Yep, it was Ron Stander

[Glyn Leach]

indeed! the boxing monthly feature on john mugabi was great.. id love to see a definitive article on honeyghan as well

Mick Gill, who does the bulk of our British retros, was speaking to Lloyd before Xmas Mugabi. He was yes, he was no, he was yes, would we mention the new mobile phone thingy he's involved with, he was no, he was yes ... but in the end it never happened. We'll try him again later in the year, definitely a good story to be told. FYI, retros in the bag for the next couple of issues are Duke McKenzie and Maurice Hope.

[Glyn Leach]

Yeah true, all depends on advertising I guess mate.

With regards Bosnia, I was a 23-year-old reporter sent there to interview and spend time with the International Police Task Force.

The commander for the Sarajevo region, which is where I was based for 10 days, was from Rhyl (Payne will love that!) and he invited me.

I travelled all over the country speaking to officers from all over Wales and the north west and came back to write up stories for the local dailies and regionals, including the MEN, Daily Post Visitor Series and the Liverpool Echo.

The IPTF was policing the country after the war. It was an amazing place, an experience I'll never forget.

I wasn't allowed to walk on the grass as there were still landmines everywhere....saw some serious shit while I was out there, the people were really messed up, understandably.

Not that had to be really freaky for a 23-year-old reporter mate! Amazing experience though, I'll bet. Would love a crack at doing some real reporting like that. Bowe-Golota I was a bit hairy but it doesn't quite stack up to Bosnia!

[Captain Hook]

That looked a lot hairier than Bosnia mate....ouch!