Khan v Mayweather: what do we think now?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Disagree with your analysis of those stats. Look at his high % fights. Maidana is easier to hit than the g-spot on a 300lb pussy and Paulie gets lauded as a defensively decent fighter but he is pretty pedestrian in this department. I was there in Manchester when he got caught often by telegraphed shots, his movement is what keeps him at bay, similar to Khan in fact.

Take two fighters with a bit, and I mean a bit, of nous in McCloskey and Kotelnik and you have a very different story. He is terribly inaccurate, as proven by two fights against an EBU level guy, Paul, and a gatekeeper sort, Kotelnik. Two of the lowest came against southpaws and Floyd has switched stance well in some of his fights to deliver blows.

Khan is fact, his movement is his defence and he has a low boxing IQ. He'll be in it for three rounds tops, look like he's in it for longer and Floydis canny enough to let him do enough to warrant that lucrative rematch. Or Floyd may beat the tar from him to draw out Manny P.

Not writing Amir off, a lot depends on how Floyd looks next time out, but 50% of Floyd would beat any Khan you care to mention as I cannot see Amir making further improvements or tightening things up.

No one does Floyd let Amir win the first three, no chance, he'd stay with him, as I said, but not go 3-0 up.

Khan might have a low boxing IQ, but is that really what's needed against Floyd?

Also, as an analogy, when a fighter relies on, say, speed, to win fights, and then is no longer the fastest man in the ring, that fighter tends to struggle terribly. Equally, maybe someone who is accurate would struggle against Mayweather, because suddenly they're in against a guy who makes them miss all the time. If you look at Mayweather's stats, he always reduces an opponent's accuracy, as compared to his previous average, massively. So, perhaps the previously accurate puncher, made to miss by the defensive genius of Mayweather, finds himself in the position of the fighter who used to have the fastest hands but no longer does?

I think you have to just accept that you're not going to hit Mayweather with that high a percentage of your punches, and throw a lot of them to compensate for that. People have always, always made this point, but where in the past, they've assumed that it must be a squat, short-armed, come-forward pressure fighter, I say it could be Khan, because he's doing it already. And while he's popping out 70 punches a round, that's forcing the opponent to work. Mayweather doesn't really like that now, and I think that even if he won, he'd have a rocky first third of the fight trying to establish control.

Mayweather has a far, far better boxing brain than Khan. It's like comparing Isaac Newton's mathematical brain with mine. But then, Mayweather has a better boxing brain than anyone in the game, beyond perhaps Bernard Hopkins. And not only that, like Hopkins, his natural style lends itself of a man with a great boxing brain. Trying to out-think or out-sharpshoot Mayweather is like invading Russia in the winter.

Why take on your enemy at his strong point? The way to win is to minimize his strongest suit; to make the ability to out-think your opponent irrelevant. The way to do that is to make sure the fight is on your terms -- and Khan has the tools, throwing lots of punches with extremely quick hands and good footwork, to do that, in my view. If they could take Mayweather's right hand lead/counter out of the equation -- perhaps by spinning off to the right, or taking a step right, I don't know -- they have a chance, in my view.

If you take your own point, that accurate fighters lose their aim when fighting Floyd then what is going to happen to Amir, a wasteful puncher? He will miss even more shots, leave himself open for counters and get hit often and cleanly.

It is well and good theorising that people have tried to pressure Floyd and failed but the reason they’ve failed is because they used volume punching and Floyd exploited the gaps in their defence to land cleaner, point scoring shots. This is what happened against Oscar, particularly when Floyd was on the ropes, for instance recall the clean as a whistle right hand that had Oscar doing a silly little dance. Now we want Amir using volume married to no defence and poor movement? The lad would get mullered.

You think that Amir throwing 70 per round and landing 14 (based on his % against comparable guys and giving him hefty benefit of the doubt) is enough to outpoint Floyd, the guy who landed 14+ shots in 10 of 12 rounds against Mosley? Say what you like about Shane being slow and old, which also begs the question of why Manny looked poor against him, but the accuracy of Floyd to both body and head in that fight was immense, especially when compared to Amir’s against the likes of Maidana.

Or look at Floyd versus Marquez. Yes JMM has seen better days, was up in weight and whatnot but Floyd was hitting 60% in too many rounds and landing more than that magic 14 shots we gave to Khan optimistically in each and every single round. All this against a far better boxer than Khan. Attack, defence, movement and combination punching (as in throwing AND landing blows) JMM trumps Amir all day long.

You talk about Amir using movement to take Floyd’s right away, he won’t be able to do this. He used movement to try to keep clear of Maidana and could not do this beyond a certain point, he kept getting hemmed in and caught so had to fight fire with fire. His movement is not thought out or placed, he circles and then darts in, Floyd will read him as easily as a fighter pilot ambling down the round reads the text on a billboard. Amir’s not shown anything to suggest he can take Floyd’s right away using movement. You say move to the right, I assume you mean Amir’s right, this was done by Roy Jones to take Toney’s right away and Roy also used a lead left hook to stop Toney “Building from the jab” but I can’t see Amir pulling this off, not because of anything other than the fact that there’s nothing in his career to suggest he can do this.

You’re basically saying he should throw a lot of shots and hope for the best, that you can’t out-shoot Floyd but eff me, if Amir comes out doing his Bambi on ice movement and throwing a load of shots in the hope that something sticks and, as history shows, has a mediocre % then it won’t be a shootout as such, Floyd will be doing the equivalent of shooting at fish in a barrel armed with an M16 and unlimited ammo. As I said earlier, every single missed shot is an opportunity for May to thread accurate shots home, he’d even dust off his uppercuts.

It strikes me as a bout that is being put together simply to mask the fact that they won’t be getting Manny in there anytime soon, and I don’t blame them. Pac-Man took on a wearier Shane and was made to look a mug by a bit of movement and nous. People think Freddy may come up with a plan for Amir but Manny’s had the guy in his corner for years and still doesn’t look capable of beating Floyd, even with his special spinach. Amir’s nowhere near ready or capable. I’d like to be proven wrong but the numbers, and I don’t usually rely on them, don’t add up in this one when it comes to what actually happens in the ring. The only numbers that add up in this one are the dough numbers.

One guy is the best fighter in the world who battered Marquez and Mosley, the other is a relatively young fighter who recently struggled to pin down a European level boxer.

Good points, but Marquez is a counter puncher. He is waiting for holes that aren't going to come, and he got beaten to the punch.

Oscar gave Floyd trouble over the first 6 by doing little more than doubling the jab.

[Captain Hook]

Oscar is far, far more durable than Khan though.....great chin.

Could Khan take the shots? If they were to fight at this stage in their careers he may (just, by a smidge) have the edge in speed but Mayweather has more in every other dept.

Punch economy, defence, power, ring smarts, experience...I can only see a win for Mayweather.

[Carbo]

If you take your own point, that accurate fighters lose their aim when fighting Floyd then what is going to happen to Amir, a wasteful puncher? He will miss even more shots, leave himself open for counters and get hit often and cleanly.

It is well and good theorising that people have tried to pressure Floyd and failed but the reason they’ve failed is because they used volume punching and Floyd exploited the gaps in their defence to land cleaner, point scoring shots. This is what happened against Oscar, particularly when Floyd was on the ropes, for instance recall the clean as a whistle right hand that had Oscar doing a silly little dance. Now we want Amir using volume married to no defence and poor movement? The lad would get mullered.

You think that Amir throwing 70 per round and landing 14 (based on his % against comparable guys and giving him hefty benefit of the doubt) is enough to outpoint Floyd, the guy who landed 14+ shots in 10 of 12 rounds against Mosley? Say what you like about Shane being slow and old, which also begs the question of why Manny looked poor against him, but the accuracy of Floyd to both body and head in that fight was immense, especially when compared to Amir’s against the likes of Maidana.

Or look at Floyd versus Marquez. Yes JMM has seen better days, was up in weight and whatnot but Floyd was hitting 60% in too many rounds and landing more than that magic 14 shots we gave to Khan optimistically in each and every single round. All this against a far better boxer than Khan. Attack, defence, movement and combination punching (as in throwing AND landing blows) JMM trumps Amir all day long.

You talk about Amir using movement to take Floyd’s right away, he won’t be able to do this. He used movement to try to keep clear of Maidana and could not do this beyond a certain point, he kept getting hemmed in and caught so had to fight fire with fire. His movement is not thought out or placed, he circles and then darts in, Floyd will read him as easily as a fighter pilot ambling down the round reads the text on a billboard. Amir’s not shown anything to suggest he can take Floyd’s right away using movement. You say move to the right, I assume you mean Amir’s right, this was done by Roy Jones to take Toney’s right away and Roy also used a lead left hook to stop Toney “Building from the jab” but I can’t see Amir pulling this off, not because of anything other than the fact that there’s nothing in his career to suggest he can do this.

You’re basically saying he should throw a lot of shots and hope for the best, that you can’t out-shoot Floyd but eff me, if Amir comes out doing his Bambi on ice movement and throwing a load of shots in the hope that something sticks and, as history shows, has a mediocre % then it won’t be a shootout as such, Floyd will be doing the equivalent of shooting at fish in a barrel armed with an M16 and unlimited ammo. As I said earlier, every single missed shot is an opportunity for May to thread accurate shots home, he’d even dust off his uppercuts.

It strikes me as a bout that is being put together simply to mask the fact that they won’t be getting Manny in there anytime soon, and I don’t blame them. Pac-Man took on a wearier Shane and was made to look a mug by a bit of movement and nous. People think Freddy may come up with a plan for Amir but Manny’s had the guy in his corner for years and still doesn’t look capable of beating Floyd, even with his special spinach. Amir’s nowhere near ready or capable. I’d like to be proven wrong but the numbers, and I don’t usually rely on them, don’t add up in this one when it comes to what actually happens in the ring. The only numbers that add up in this one are the dough numbers.

One guy is the best fighter in the world who battered Marquez and Mosley, the other is a relatively young fighter who recently struggled to pin down a European level boxer.

Well, this is all jolly civilized and intellectual, isn't it? I hope my answer below does justice to your considered argument.

I find it difficult to throw all my weight behind this argument, because essentially I agree with you that Mayweather would be favourite. I think where we disagree would be the extent that he would be favourite.

First, I think Marquez's performance against Mayweather (or, more to the point, Mayweather's aganst Marquez) is of no use to your argument. The Marquez you describe -- better than Khan in "Attack, defence, movement and combination punching" -- may have held true at 126 and 130, but not at 135, and certainly not above that. Even at 135, Marquez appeared to have reached the limits of his body, and the extra bulk seemed to slow both his hands and feet. His chin has been eminently reachable at 135, and by fighters no worse than those Khan has fought and defeated of late. Marquez fought both Diaz and Katsidis in fights that were somewhere between difficult and life-and-death until his genius boxing brain found the solution and got him out of trouble. Khan would be massive favourite against either fighter.

Against Mayweather, a further 13 pounds north, the effect additional weight was having at 135 was clearly exasperated. (Not helped by Mayweather's shameful and wanton flouting of the pre-fight contract to give himself an even larger advantage than fighting as a natural welterweight against a natural super-featherweight would have ordinarily provided. I'd have made Mayweather lose the pounds or call the fight off in disgrace and sued him for every last cent of my own purse.)

No, Marquez, one of my favourite fighters and a boxing genius, was fighting not so much way past his best as a bit past his best and way above his best. His chin was there for all to hit, and it could be a slow handed, technically inept character like Katsidis as much as it could be by the technically perfect, quicksilver Mayweather.

Furthermore, Marquez was a counter-puncher himself. Essentially, he waits for gaps in an opponent's defence. That's all well and good, but there aren't going to be too many in Mayweather's defence, ever. Also, Marquez, being the smaller man, had to come forward, taking him out of his natural game and allowing Mayweather to fight his.

It is true, of course, that Khan could not keep away from Maidana for 12 rounds. But he kept away from him enough to win. And Maidana is a very underrated fighter. He's another that's available to hit, and he hasn't got a granite chin, but he has better technique than he's given credit for, and he is as tough as they come, rolling forward, throwing bombs no matter how fcuked up he is. His footwork is also very good when it comes to quartering and cutting off the ring. Khan, lest we forget, did far better than wily verteran Morales, and a man who just beat Andre Berto convincingly a weight division up. Nobody's accusing Ortiz of being a bum, but Khan kept away from Maidana's bombs for eight full rounds longer than he managed, and when he did get tagged, he survived, rather than crumbled.

Ultimately, though, I think you've fundamentally misunderstood my point about throwing lots of punches -- although I think that's my fault for not explaining well enough. You are right that if Khan throws 70 punches, and lands only 20% (not out of the question against such a supreme defensive boxer, I would think), then he will only land 14 punches.

However, first, Mayweather, even with his supreme accuracy levels, would have to throw 30-40 punches to score land the same number -- which is about what he does in Welterweight fights. Mayweather relies on efficiency, but with him usually throwing about 25 punches less than the welterweight average, and Khan throwing 15-20 punches more than the average, Khan can afford to be half as accurate as Mayweather and will still land approximately equal numbers of punches. And all the while it'll look as if Khan's winning the fight on numbers of blows landed, simply by throwing more. Some will be caught on the gloves, the Mayweather tucked left shoulder, but look as if they scored. Khan will look like the aggressor. Khan will look as if he's dictating the fight. Whether he is or not is irrespective; that's how it'll look.

But second, and my real argument, while it's only the punches landed that count toward round scoring, punches thrown and not landed can help win one. Because while Khan is letting his hands go -- especially since those hands are quick and don't leave much time for countering -- his opponents find it more difficult to punch. That's why people argue that Mayweather must be fought by throwing lots of punches. First, to compensate for the reduced accuracy, but second, to keep him from simply picking his spots, and third, to make him fight at a pace that, at 147 at least, he has managed to avoid thus far.

And while Mayweather has no problem with plodders like Baldomir or the version of Hatton he fought, he might have problems when those punches are coming at a rate of knots faster, and when instead of someone's head and body following them in in a straight line, the opponent quickly spins or bounces away. This relates to my first point on punches thrown, that it'll create an impression of Khan winning, too. Mainly, that Mayweather has always found a way to clearly make a fight his, fought at his pace and at his style, taking away the volume puncher's key advantage. But that'll be more difficult against someone so fast of hand and fleet of foot.

Furthermore, we've all seen the problems Mayweather's had with fast-handed fighters in the past. Mayweather figured all those guys out, but they also had problems that allowed him to: Judah's lack of concentration of application; Mosley's and Dela Hoya's age.

Finally, I have to disagree with you about the direction of the arrow of causality on the Mayweather-Pacquaio no fight thing. There's only one person avoiding that, and it's Floyd Mayweather. If his preposterous negotiating demands (not just the drugs, but the rest, too) weren't enough to prove it, his desperation to fight while avoiding Pacquaio is in evidence when he jumps on literally the first credible opponent to come along, like a horny virgin teenager in a nightclub. Your whole assumption that Khan's people are doing it to help Pacquiao is besides fundamentally flawed: Pacquaio is a Top Rank fighter, and Mayweather and Khan are (to varying degrees) Golden Boy. It's Golden Boy, not Top Rank, that have been avoiding the fight, and, low and behold, they're now pushing Khan as yet another opponent that isn't Pacquaio.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Oscar is far, far more durable than Khan though.....great chin.

Could Khan take the shots? If they were to fight at this stage in their careers he may (just, by a smidge) have the edge in speed but Mayweather has more in every other dept.

Punch economy, defence, power, ring smarts, experience...I can only see a win for Mayweather.

Well it's not like Mayweather landed an avalanche of Punches on Oscar is it? He landed one really big shot, a left hook off the ropes.

[Carbo]

I think it is fair. The cliche goes that if a fighter doesn't want to engage then it is hard to hit him but that one gets trotted out when a youngster fails to fire against a decent journeyman, not when a world champion fails to shine. It was a bad night for Amir, he looked terrible.

Khan didn't look so good, that's true; however, at least part of that is to do with McCloskey's entirely defenisve tactics. The Dark Destroyer is correct: McCloskey made Khan miss and generally look bad, but at the expense of his own offense and any chance he had of actually winning the fight. Boxing is complex and difficult in the same way any sport is, or a game like Chess: to win, one has to think simultaneously about hurting one's opponent while defending against his efforts to do likewise. Concentrate only on defence and you're guaranteed to lose, but you find it far, far, easier to actually defend. Look at football teams when they go down to ten men: if they get organized, they can often survive quite easily. Nobody thinks the US economy was crap just because the Soviets matched them in tank and missile production: it was easy when they didn't have to bother about producing consumer goods and could pump all the best raw materiels and minds into military production.

And this patently isn't something just something applicable to prospects: where one man just tries to survive and spoil, the other fighter often looks worse than normal, and it's reasonable to point that out.

RE Marquez, I disagree. The guy has fought well at 135lb against Casa, Diaz (twice) and Katsidis. Amir has looked poor at 140 against lesser names. Easier to hit? Perhaps but the guy was 34 when he made the move up to lightweight and he did so to try to track a third Manny P bout. He may not be the Marquez of old but I would still take his attack, defence, movement and combos over Khan as they may lack a bit of flash but they do a much better job.

You disagree, but not with the point I was actually making. I suspect this is a crafty attempt at the politicians' trick of refusing to accept the premise of the question when you don't like the answer you'll be forced to give. I made no claim that Marquez fought poorly against Casamayor, Diaz or Katsidis: what I said was that he was easier to hit than he had been. It's undeniable that his chin was eminently reachable at 135 in ways that it hadn't been at featherweight and super-featherweight. The first Diaz fight was life-and-death until his brilliant boxing brain figured out how to connect with Diaz consistently, and he was given plenty of bother against Katsidis, a crude brawler who's lost convincingly every time he's dipped his toes in world class waters. Casamayor was well over the hill when he fought Marquez, but again, it was a close fight.

Amir Khan may have looked poor against lesser names, but the new, post-Roach Khan has beaten or looked impressive against fighters who were better at the time he fought them than the ones Marquez had been tagged by often at 135 when he fought them -- and in a weight division higher.

This leaves the over-135 Marquez. Granted he looked slow against Mayweather but landed that superb right hand and arguably made a rod for his back as Floyd clearly stepped up after that shot and pretty much made the decision to put Marquez in his place and, this is purely my opinion, decided not to push the KO late and just left the guy in the fight, taking a pasting but in the fight nonetheless.

We could debate whether JMM would have looked equally as pedestrian had he fought any other 140lber but it is a moot point. Although I’d happily take him over Paulie, Barrera, Kotelnik and even Maidana, who was made to look a right novice in the Morales fight.

So you agree that Marquez "looked slow" and that he only managed one good attacking moment in the fight. You also agree that Mayweather was so comfortable against this slow, natural super-featherweight that he, as soon as he wanted, "made the decision to put Marquez in his place", but you're still standing by that as a decent analogy?

Seems strange.

And, again, the issue isn't whether Marquez would have "looked equally as pedestrian [at] 140", but whether it's a worthwhile comparison or exemplar for a hypothetical match against Mayweather at 147. Clearly, it's not.

As for Maidana, completely disagree. He cut the ring down well against Khan but this was more to do with Amir’s movement being so predictable. Maidana’s shots were wide and telegraphed in that fight, this is what prevented Khan from getting KO’d because had the shots come sharper and with speed he would have gone the way he went against Prescott, better conditioned or not. It was the poor punches coming his way more than anything else.

Maidana cuts down the ring well full stop. I watched several of his fights on YouTube the day of the Khan fight and it's something he does well. As for his shots being telegraphed, maybe, but not telegraphed enough for the 27 (obviously, in your view, wide open schmucks) he's knocked out (out of 32 opponents), and not telegraphed enough for a quality fighter like Victor Ortiz to see. He certainly swings for the bleachers with every shot, but he's an underrated technician, and he gets the job done.

Saying Amir did better against Maidana at light-welterweight than the 34-year-old, former featherweight Erik Morales is arguable. I don’t think that Erik was anywhere near as close to going as Amir was and the guy was coming from a three gap followed by fights against guys he could have beaten standing on his head (no offence to Willie Limond here) in his pomp.

Like Marquez, Morales stepped way up in weight at a late age. Unlike JMM he almost pulled out a win and performed on a par with a young guy (Khan) who is straining at the weight limit. Hardly marks Maidana out. Plus the Argentine then claims he didn’t bother training as hard for that one because Morales is old and slower, the guy is an idiot, clearly.

I'm not sure if I understand this Morales business. Um, you do realize that Morales lost and Khan won, right? The buzz about Morales's performance wasn't that it was a complete robbery, but that he wasn't painfully blasted out. It was the expectations game: everyone expected Morales to lose bad in a fight that would be bad for the sport, and that he won some rounds and stung Maidana a few times, was a great victory for him. Khan clearly won the Maidana fight, and, let's not forget, had him down and almost out in the first. He was rocking and rolling in the tenth and eleventh, but then he'd clearly put enough rounds in the bank to win.

I don't see your point. Maidana is a quality fighter who could -- and will, I'm confident -- mix it up with anyone at 140 right now. (I also think he's the type of 'TV' fighter who'll always make it hard for himself and be in exciting fights in which he'll have ups and downs -- but that's beside the point.)

Again on the numbers. As per your earlier post Amir, assuming he does 20%, which is incredibly generous to him, would throw a lot, miss a lot and Floyd would be able to do it like the GZA advise, ‘half long, twice strong’ and would save a lot more energy this way to exploit Amir’s late fade. For me this is a clear ‘rabbit and tortoise’ fight and I can well envisage Amir starting around 20% early then slipping down as the fight goes on and get really ‘tuned up’ as Jim Watt would have it.

I think this is a fair point. My argument would be that Khan might fade in the last three, but could have enough points in the bag to make it close.

As for Floyd versus fast punchers. Judah did give him problems, and was unlucky not to get a knockdown, but only for three rounds, Floyd then used his right to the body, massively underrated, to break Zab’s approach and he used this shot throughout the fight. Could have been a mixture of Zab’s speed and stance at the time that caused Mayweather problems.

Floyd's right to the body is massively underrated -- as is his jab to the body.

But again, you've answered a different argument to the one I made. It wasn't whether Mayweather figured him out, which he obviously did, but that he was given problems early by fast handed fighters, and these men all had 'issues' of one type or another that Khan doesn't share and that made it easier for him to go on and dominate. He did figure out Judah, but so does everyone else.

Consider this, your stretching right back to point out that Floyd’s struggled with a peak or near prime Judah, who was a good fighter on his day. This was, what, five or six years ago? OK, in that period Amir has struggled with Willie Limond (technically good and used precision to distract and then floor Khan), Michael Gomez and we’ll throw in McCloskey for the awkwardness. So any claims that Floyd struggling with Zab way back when and at the world level impacting on this one are pulled into focus by Khan struggling with the names above. I know, I know, he’s since had the Roach effect but I think Floyd’s adapted and aged well.

This is a simply preposterous argument. You're comparing the efforts of a seasoned pro already at the very pinnacle of the sport with the efforts of a rank novice who's now a completely different fighter, because they were fighting at the same time. Are you really doing that? Really?

One doesn't compare fighters with an exact nominal time, but a relative time related to equivalent points of their career. We can't really do that with Khan at the moment, unless we reverse it and compare him with a similar stage in Mayweather's career. He'd come up well short comparing to Floyd's 130lb performances, but then it's a different Mayweather now, so that'd be irrelevant, too.

And yes, the Roach effect is more important for Khan than a change in trainers would ordinarily be, because it has so clearly transformed him.

The long and short of it is that you’re image of Amir winning involves him fighting out of his skin and doing things that we’ve yet to see him do and hope he can do. I’m just pointing out that Floyd will be Floyd and will do all the things we know he can do and he has proven he can do during his career.

Agreed. Absolutely agreed. I think Mayweather would beat Khan, but I also think Khan, in a styles-makes-fights way, would have a good chance.

Disagree on Manny P still. Without opening a whole new debate I think the testing demand from Floyd is extreme but necessary ahead of a fight with Manny in order to ensure a level playing field as in my opinion he won’t get one if these tests are not implemented. Either way, I’d take him to make Manny look like a right tit if they should meet.

Drug testing is important and I'm pleased, in a way, that somebody's brought it up, because it's clearly rife in boxing and clearly it's something which is shamefully ignored. Interesting, though, that this was the first time Floyd had made it. Interesting also that he made a whole range of other requests, about everything from pay to wages to the location to the size of the ring to their weight, and it was only when Pacquaio met those demands that the drugs cropped up. And interesting that every time Pacquaio agreed to some form of testing, Mayweather would demand something new and more rigorous. And interesting that when Arum arranged a trip to the new Cowboy's Stadium, Richard Schaefer and Mayweather's manager didn't show. And interesting that Mayweather retired, rather than fight Pacquaio, then fought Mosley. And then retired again, and then arranged a fight with Victor Ortiz as soon as he became credible after an impressive performance.

All interesting.

But as you say, it's an argument for another thread.

[Captain Hook]

Oscar is far, far more durable than Khan though.....great chin.

Could Khan take the shots? If they were to fight at this stage in their careers he may (just, by a smidge) have the edge in speed but Mayweather has more in every other dept.

Punch economy, defence, power, ring smarts, experience...I can only see a win for Mayweather.

Well it's not like Mayweather landed an avalanche of Punches on Oscar is it? He landed one really big shot, a left hook off the ropes.

I mean historically, not just vs Floyd. Terrific chin.

[Quixall]

I always enjoy reading your stuff Carbo

[Rocky Balboa]

I read an interview today Khan says he's staying at 140 till he's 25 then moving up. Khan-guerrero could be a possibility?

Guerrero has the Power in that One. Khan won't wanna be mixing it on the Inside in this one!

[Des1]

This whole thread is a joke right?

I like Khan and think he has done well coming back from that 1st round KO but suggest that he would even have a fraction of a chance against Mayweather is crazy. They are different levels.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I've thought for a long time Khan would develop into Floyd's biggest challenge 147 and below, a greater challenge than Pacquaio. And Mayweather's my favorite active fighter

The reasons for this is, he has the jab, the range and height, the punches in bunches, the speed, the tight guard. The best way to neutralise Mayweather is with the jab, it's the easiest punch to land in boxing and Khan has the best jab 147 and below, Mayweather can slip jabs but he still lets himself get backed up by them. Stylistically it is a similar fight to DLH, who put Floyd on the backfoot with his jab, Khan likely does the same. But Khan's offense would be more varied, he'd work hard for 12 rounds. Pacquaio doesn't bring the same challenge, because he doesn't have that range or jab to have a hope of boxing and being first against Mayweather, Pacman has a punchers chance ofcourse but if he has troubles landing on granpa Mosley he isn't landing on Mayweather

Then we have to remember Floyd is 34,will be 35 next year, is innactive and we just don't know how much hunger he has left. To win fights you need more than skill, you need hunger and stamina

However Khan's stamina/workrate isn't going to work aswell against Mayweather as it would others. He'll miss allot of his punches, he'll be countered and because of that his workrate will drop

In a way this could be this generations Delahoya-Whitaker, young primed athletic boxer versus an old school on the way out boxing servant

[Deserter]

Gents, popping onto this thread purely to give a to the quality of posts on here - some fantastic content that makes a mockery of those who pour scorn on internet 'anoraks'.

Adios

[jamesmcdonnell]

Oscar is far, far more durable than Khan though.....great chin.

Could Khan take the shots? If they were to fight at this stage in their careers he may (just, by a smidge) have the edge in speed but Mayweather has more in every other dept.

Punch economy, defence, power, ring smarts, experience...I can only see a win for Mayweather.

Well it's not like Mayweather landed an avalanche of Punches on Oscar is it? He landed one really big shot, a left hook off the ropes.

I mean historically, not just vs Floyd. Terrific chin.

No, I know what you mean. Oscar had one of the best chins I've ever seen. The shots he eat against Shane Mosley were something to behold, and that was a prime Mosley too, who could really crack, and was so fast that you didnt see the shots coming, Mosley never ever had him staggered. People knock Oscar, but he was one tough S.O.B.

My point though is that Mayweather only landed one really heavy shot on Oscar, and Oscar was dimished by that point.

For what it's worth, the Mosley and DLH who fought first time, would have had too much game for Floyd. They were both incredible fighting machines.

Even a diminished Oscar look human, with little more than a consistent jab, but he just didnt have the gas to maintain it. Floyd never really adjusted to it, the jab just died out as the fight wore on, and as it did, Floyd took over.

As said by others here, a slick fighter like Floyd's enemy is a consistent jab. It stops them setting up their attacks, and whilst you may get countered, it means you are constantly scoring and setting up other shots. Khan has a very fast jab, and exceptionally long arms, he is perfectly built for this. He also has a good workrate and I think a good chance of racking up the points against Floyd and making him work very hard for his openings.

I think Khan is someone that Floyd would maybe have to knock out to beat. I'm not saying he couldn't, but he may be forced to actually come looking for Khan in a reprise of his days at 130 and below when he was a real assassin.

I believe Floyd has the power to hurt Khan, no doubt, he is a very accurate puncher, but Khan has shown he can rally and more importantly recover from being hurt. He has always shown great powers of recovery.

[Captain Hook]

Agree with a lot of that and that's how I see it going

I can see it going back and forth, with maybe a round or two in it when they get to 9/10 and Khan getting stopped. I just feel Mayweather has an extra gear or two that Khan will never have.

Fantastic fighter, but Floyd will go down as an all time great. I agree he should have fought certain boxers before they began to slide, but look at the names on his CV, and besides Castillo has he ever really been in a crisis?

He will retire unbeaten.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Agree with a lot of that and that's how I see it going

I can see it going back and forth, with maybe a round or two in it when they get to 9/10 and Khan getting stopped. I just feel Mayweather has an extra gear or two that Khan will never have.

Fantastic fighter, but Floyd will go down as an all time great. I agree he should have fought certain boxers before they began to slide, but look at the names on his CV, and besides Castillo has he ever really been in a crisis?

He will retire unbeaten.

i believe Floyd's desire to remain unbeaten will maybe force him to dig deeper than people suppose. I don't think Floyd is a pussy, I think he just values his health, and sees no point in taking shots he doesn't need to take. He's always shown a good chin. Getting buzzed by Judah and Mosley is hardly shameful.

[Carbo]

Been watching a whole bunch of old Floyd Mayweather fights since this debate. Here are some thoughts. First, Floyd Mayweather is always better than you remember him. The guy is fcuking incredible. He's just so good.

Second, Mayweather, actually, on my card and Harold Lederman's card, took three of the first four rounds. But DLH took the next three, and the way he did that was with the jab. When he worked it, Floyd backed up, and DLH was able to set up better work. But he was too old to make it work. First, because he couldn't keep up the pace, and as soon as the pace slowed, Floyd took over. I don't think Khan would have that problem, but DLH was also strong and powerful enough to bully Mayweather -- or at least gain his respect -- and sturdy enough to withstand the counters. Would that apply to Khan? Second, DLH just couldn't pull the trigger. There were times when he would just stand off, half feinting, half tensing, just not quite being able to pull the trigger or put it together

For what it's worth, I think that DLH only lost 115-113 and that at any time between the first Trinidad fight and the second Mosley fight, he would have been favourite to beat any version of Floyd you'd care to put up against him. Ditto Mosley against Floyd.

Finally, I think I'd forgotten something about Floyd and the type of fighter he likes: he's lethal against taller, rangier opponents. He dismantled Corrales, and did likewise to N'Dou and Sosa.

Anyway, there's some more grist for your mills.

[Carbo]

Agree with a lot of that and that's how I see it going

I can see it going back and forth, with maybe a round or two in it when they get to 9/10 and Khan getting stopped. I just feel Mayweather has an extra gear or two that Khan will never have.

Fantastic fighter, but Floyd will go down as an all time great. I agree he should have fought certain boxers before they began to slide, but look at the names on his CV, and besides Castillo has he ever really been in a crisis?

He will retire unbeaten.

i believe Floyd's desire to remain unbeaten will maybe force him to dig deeper than people suppose. I don't think Floyd is a pussy, I think he just values his health, and sees no point in taking shots he doesn't need to take. He's always shown a good chin. Getting buzzed by Judah and Mosley is hardly shameful.

One thing about Floyd that people forget is that he has a fantastic chin. He was hit hard by Corely, and more notably by Judah and Mosley and he recovered very quickly. So, on the rare occasions when one does find his chin with something big -- and that happens about once every 36 rounds -- he's got a solid chin to back it up. It's pretty demoralizing.

The other point is that he works so hard in the gym. He might eat like a first year student, but nobody in the game is fitter than Floyd. He's always there in the 12th, doing exactly the same as in the first, and coming on strong. He really is a fighter who would benefit from the reintroduction of 15 round fights.

So, he has all the skill in the world, but when it comes down to it, he's never going to let anyone close the gap through greater dedication, a sturdier chin or fitness -- and that's admirable.

[Carbo]

Been watching a whole bunch of old Floyd Mayweather fights since this debate. Here are some thoughts. First, Floyd Mayweather is always better than you remember him. The guy is fcuking incredible. He's just so good.

Second, Mayweather, actually, on my card and Harold Lederman's card, took three of the first four rounds. But DLH took the next three, and the way he did that was with the jab. When he worked it, Floyd backed up, and DLH was able to set up better work. But he was too old to make it work. First, because he couldn't keep up the pace, and as soon as the pace slowed, Floyd took over. I don't think Khan would have that problem, but DLH was also strong and powerful enough to bully Mayweather -- or at least gain his respect -- and sturdy enough to withstand the counters. Would that apply to Khan? Second, DLH just couldn't pull the trigger. There were times when he would just stand off, half feinting, half tensing, just not quite being able to pull the trigger or put it together

For what it's worth, I think that DLH only lost 115-113 and that at any time between the first Trinidad fight and the second Mosley fight, he would have been favourite to beat any version of Floyd you'd care to put up against him. Ditto Mosley against Floyd.

Finally, I think I'd forgotten something about Floyd and the type of fighter he likes: he's lethal against taller, rangier opponents. He dismantled Corrales, and did likewise to N'Dou and Sosa.

Anyway, there's some more grist for your mills.

Pretty much agree. Would go for Floyd over any ODH and Shane but it would be a tough one. Oscar did well with his jab, only worry for me is that Amir's went AWOL in the fight with Maidana and isn't on a par with ODH's left as Oscar is naturally left-handed so his left jab and hook-cum-uppercut were great weapons.

Floyd is so good at drawing a fighter's sting, Khan may throw more early to compensate but the problem with this is that if you set a high early pace you only have one way to go, down, and it can impact on the how people read the fight as you may still set a pace late but it won't impress the judges as much as it will like you've lost steam unless you're right up there throwing the way you did in the first round.

I can't see past Khan throwing a lot, missing a lot and Floyd coming into the fight more and more, hammering the body and hitting Amir with enough clean shots to force a stoppage. If it is a bad loss it would tough for Khan as where does he go from there.

Carbo, not been able to sit down and bash out a response to your previous post but will look over a lot of it when doing that thing for 'Scene

Got a feeling for Vernon Forrest beating Mayweather at welterweight but will have to think for a bit before I even try outlining it!

Forrest is a brilliant call. Underrated fighter, who, in my view, was robbed in the second fight against Mayorga. (Although I haven't seen it since the event). The thing that makes you right that he'd have a good chance against Mayweather is that he was faster-handed than you think, but he was adept at off-setting a speed disadvantages in speed with excellent timing and firm, technically correct punches.

I think Kostya Tszyu would have had a great chance at 140 when Mayweather fought Gatti.

[Carbo]

I'd like to see Khan against Bradley. Think he has the beating of the shaven headed brusier.

That'd be a great fight. An old fashioned fight between contrasting styles that's genuinely 50-50 and between two guys before or approaching their peaks, rather than after.

Love to see that. I would give Khan the nod -- just. 5/4 on fights evens; something like that.

[Carbo]

I'd like to see Khan against Bradley. Think he has the beating of the shaven headed brusier.

That'd be a great fight. An old fashioned fight between contrasting styles that's genuinely 50-50 and between two guys before or approaching their peaks, rather than after.

Love to see that. I would give Khan the nod -- just. 5/4 on fights evens; something like that.

He'd get more than a nod from Bradley's bonce

Can't see it happening to be honest but never say never. Good match up but likely to be a messy fight. Like a world class version of Smigga against Quigley, which was enthralling when watched live but a bit bitty.

I'm pretty confident it will happen, actually. I see no reason why it won't in December. Khan's people are just trying to (1) goad Bradley out, and (2) strengthen their negotiating position by pretending they have other options.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Khan v Bradley should be a great fight. Bradley is durable, persistent, and he's got a great workrate, he won't fold under pressure like Judah. I can see it being Khan early, Bradley late, and it turning into a real barnburner in the championship rounds.

I think Khan can do it, but I'd be amazed if he has an easy night. Bradley is very physically fit and strong.

I really hope this fight happens, and soon, genuine unification by the two best men in the division.

Bring it on!