dsimpson wrote:Mayweather really is on another level. He basically took the piss out of a three weight world champion last night. He was in control throughout. Cotto did well and all credit to him, but I didn't sense he Pushed Floyd onto the ropes, I sensed Floyd actually chose to fight there. Quite incredible, but rather than thinking he's slowing down I tend to think he actually held Cotto up in there.
err and pac did what to cotto....so he must be onthe same level then?
not that it means much but Pac kicked the shit out of a fresher better version of cotto worse than PBF. So PBF cant be another level to Pac right?
dsimpson wrote:Mayweather really is on another level. He basically took the piss out of a three weight world champion last night. He was in control throughout. Cotto did well and all credit to him, but I didn't sense he Pushed Floyd onto the ropes, I sensed Floyd actually chose to fight there. Quite incredible, but rather than thinking he's slowing down I tend to think he actually held Cotto up in there.
err and pac did what to cotto....so he must be onthe same level then?
not that it means much but Pac kicked the shit out of a fresher better version of cotto worse than PBF. So PBF cant be another level to Pac right?
Pac beat weight drained version think thats pretty obvious, Cotto was fucked you could tell after 5 rounds, he didnt gas as much vs floyd as he has no trouble making 154. I think Floyd could have stopped Cotto if he's have put it on him, Pacs just king of the catch weights. I dont understand how any boxing fan can dislike Mayweather.
I don't know what all the fuss is about. Floyd pretty much dominated the fight, still faster and more accurate than just about everyone else out there. Still calm under pressure, and still showing how versatile he is. Right hooks, yes right HOOKS landing at will against one of the the top fighters in the world.
We know a good jab can get to Floyd. So what he got a bloody nose this is the fight game! He wanted the KO but couldnt get it. All credit to Cotto, the fighters fighter.
Alvarez is only 21, too soon to take on PBF. Its PAC Man or nothing now.
Let's not forget Floyd is pretty much a junior welterweight, he boxes at 147 on fight night if he could bothered he could probably do 140 no problem.
dsimpson wrote:Mayweather really is on another level. He basically took the piss out of a three weight world champion last night. He was in control throughout. Cotto did well and all credit to him, but I didn't sense he Pushed Floyd onto the ropes, I sensed Floyd actually chose to fight there. Quite incredible, but rather than thinking he's slowing down I tend to think he actually held Cotto up in there.
err and pac did what to cotto....so he must be onthe same level then?
not that it means much but Pac kicked the shit out of a fresher better version of cotto worse than PBF. So PBF cant be another level to Pac right?
Pac beat weight drained version think thats pretty obvious, Cotto was fucked you could tell after 5 rounds, he didnt gas as much vs floyd as he has no trouble making 154. I think Floyd could have stopped Cotto if he's have put it on him, Pacs just king of the catch weights. I dont understand how any boxing fan can dislike Mayweather.
Cotto was fcked because Pacquiao layed it on him big time and nailed him like he nailed Mosley to the floor.
Was Cotto weight drained against Jennings and Clottey too.?
Of course I think Floyd would win by UD against Manny. Different Styles Manny is all offence, Floyd's more the complete boxer but he don't like trading punches just giving them.
No way he loses 4lb overnight, complete nonsense. He probably was a lb or 2 heavier. He looked bigger than ive seen him before and he was mid 150s for jmm.
Hes as much as a lmw as pac is a ww. Martinez was 157 for mm so could make 154 easy. Why not fight the best instead of damaged goods, slow as shit cotto who got the beating of his life v pac?
Gray-Fox wrote:People who don't like Floyd are basically upset at their own lives.
I agree 100%. And was thinking the exact same thing when my kids started crying after I knocked their mum around the front room at the weekend.
You’ve got be some kind of degenerate cretin to not like Floyd. People need to look at their own lives and see what’s missing.
Losers, all of them.
That Gray-Fox fella seems a wee bit obsessed, don't he? I would like to hear his take on why Floyd took his foot off the pedal & cruised to a decision versus his ex-missus rather than just going for the knockout like he did against that other girl he beat up in 2002, though I can probably guess that Floyd only did that because it was what the fans wanted to see.
Is it not possible to see Floyd somewhere in the middle ?
People either seem to completely hate him, which alters their view of fights or they completely love the guy, can't see any faults and criticise anyone who makes a criticism. I certainly don't think that people who dislike Floyd are unhappy with their lives lol, they just don't see what other people see. People seem to be a bit precious when it comes to Mr Mayweather.....
For what it's worth, I thought that while it was an entertaining fight, Mayweather won convincingly (albeit not by as much as suggested by the ludicrous scorecards; I had it 8-4 Mayweather).
Is Mayweather slowing down? Well, I think that the Compubox figures for the fight are telling. He landed only 26% of his punches, and while I'd need to look it up, I think that's about 20 percentage points down from his average. Furthermore, even though Cotto only landed around 21%, that's an improvement on the average for a Mayweather opponent, who usually land no more than mid-teens against the Pretty Boy. It means that his Compubox Plus/Minus figure, which has been for a decade the best-ever in the sport (and the best-ever by a mile), must have been way down on this fight, back in the realms of the merely mortal.
I believe that part of this was due to Cotto's excellent game plan. He didn't run in like an idiot and let himself be picked off, as Hatton did and others, specifically several Hispanic opponents at 130 and 135, have done. Like Castillo, his pressure was so measured that it might be difficult to call it "pressure" at all. He came in with a good, high guard, behind a solid and, in my view, superbly timed, jab, and used exemplary footwork to quarter the ring. Furthermore, I noticed that on several occasions, Cotto would, when he had Mayweather against the ropes, end a combination on a jab -- which is something I remember the Puerto Rican doing as a youngster, and is a classy way of controlling exchanges by not allowing the opponent to come back after a combo.
Furthermore, Cotto is strong and, while he hasn't got lightning hand speed, is still reasonably quick, and while he's not an outstanding technician, has above average technique. This allowed him to land the jab regularly, and control Mayweather's lead right -- basically his honey punch down the years.
Some may, of course, argue that it was not so much Cotto's jab that negated Mayweather's right, but that Mayweather is slowing. I'm not sure about that, but it is true that Mayweather was noticeably less effective with it, and only really had any success when he widened the punch and made it into something resembling a hook, to go around Cotto's defence. This is not the way he usually does things, preferring to ping it with rapier-like speed down the pipe, or counter over the top of a jab (at least until later rounds, when he does sweep it in more, to get more power). Also, we shouldn't forget that it would only take Mayweather to have slowed by the merest fraction of a second -- perhaps one one-hundredth or so -- to be no longer quite able to counter over the top of, or get off before an opponent throws, a jab. We would probably notice in the punch statistics before we noticed in the ring, given the minuscule margins involved in boxing at the top level
But I don't know. Was it Cotto's better-than-expected jab exposing a long-term semi-weakness (I use the prefix 'semi-', because, in my opinion, Mayweather doesn't have anything like a 'real' weakness on the level of almost every other fighter) that has been highlighted before against De La Hoya, Castillo and Emanual Augustus, and can therefore not be used as evidence of Mayweather slowing? Or was it on this occasion a sign that he has, perhaps, lost that tiny fraction of a second?
I can't honestly say with any degree of certainty, but I'd be keen to hear the forum's views on this question.
What I can say, though, is that Mayweather's feet have most certainly slowed. He's simply not as flighty or as swift-footed as he used to be. He uses far less lateral movement. In recent fights, I have thought that this was a deliberate strategic decision to remove an opponent's key tactical strength. Much as Mosley defied expectations against Margarito by backing up the Tijuana-man, and forcing him to fight where he was least comfortable, on the back foot, so I thought that against Old Man Mosley and Ortiz, Mayweather was doing likewise. Now I'm not so sure. Thinking logically, he could have fought that way against Hatton and Baldomir -- neither of whom are particularly effective backing up -- but he didn't, winning both fights in the way one would expect Mayweather to do against pressure fighters, countering off the back foot, and using lots of lateral movement and angles.
Whether I'm right or wrong in that, I think it's fair to say that six years ago, he would definitely have fought Cotto in a different manner. On Saturday, he settled down onto the flats of his feet right away, and when he backed up, he did so -- amazingly, for those of us who have followed him all his career -- in a straight line. It was this that allowed him to be forced to the ropes, even if his outstanding shell/shoulder-roll defence meant he didn't take as many shots as would have other fighters who walk back in a straight line. Of course, he still did a bit of moving on the balls of his feet, but a tiny fraction of what we saw up until his two big fights in 2007.
Is this a strategic decision to make for more entertaining fights, and thus maximize his revenue? Well, it is true that he now has a new model of doing business (in which the promoter, arena and TV company are essentially sub-contracted to him) that makes him vast sums of money for each fight, but also places the financial risk squarely on his, rather than the the promoter's, TV company's and arena's, shoulders; however, in my view, that's doubtful. Mayweather has never really been one who has given two hoots about anyone else's opinion. He craves adulation, that's true, but rather than being the sort to give the crowd and pundits what they want to get it, he's been the sort to resentfully tell the world that they're wrong and he's right when they don't. And he's made a fortune even being a fighter who was considered by many to be boring.
Or is it perhaps the tactical influence of Roger Mayweather, who has always wanted Floyd to be more of an offensive fighter than Floyd Sr, who is more defence oriented? Again, doubtful, I think, because Roger's been Floyd's trainer for ages, and it's only now we've seen the difference.
Furthermore, in other areas, Floyd is still noticeably risk-averse. His selection of opponent, and his willingness to take other risks in a fight, are still safety first. For instance, if Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley or Felix Trinidad had hurt Cotto with that uppercut in the last round as Floyd did, you can be certain they'd have thrown caution to the wind to try to finish him. Floyd was happy with to know that hurting Cotto would make him reluctant to further attack, and back off to coast to the win.
What I'm interested in is what all this says for a potential matchup with Pacquiao. If Pacquaio is in long term decline, which he might be, given his recent then probably not much: still a convincing Mayweather win. However, if, as Freddie Roach contends, Pacquiao is refocused and back on the wagon after some profligate living, then it might say a great deal. Pacquaio is far faster of hand and foot than Cotto, shows more angles, and, although he has a looser guard, has better head movement, at least in the early rounds. The hand speed and ability to throw combinations is also considerably better than Cotto. More importantly, we know that even at 147, Pacquiao has freakish power, and I think that some of the punches Cotto was just missing with might land, and that if they do, they'll take a greater toll on Mayweather.
I've always thought that Mayweather would do a number on Pacquaio, but now I'm not sure.
That's not to say I'm joining the knee-jerk crowd: Mayweather on Saturday was still exceptional and fought a superb fight against a world class opponent. He's still the outstanding boxer of his generation and the best defensive fighter. Nobody under 160 could be considered favourite to beat him, and only one fighter, in my view, Martinez, close to evens. But I do think that there are one or two signs there that he's now more vulnerable than at any stage in the past.
It was an enjoyable fight - not quite as enjoyable as the Huck Afolabi fight, but still good. I'm not a big fan of Mayweather as a person (well, the bad-boy persona he cultivates anyway), but I'm an admirer of his skills. Cotto did as well as I think he could do, but as so many others have found, Floyd is a slippery customer. He's definitely getting hit a little more these days though.
I always thought Bradley was a bigger danger to Pacman than Cotto was to Mayweather. I stand by that and would not be surprised to see Bradley beat Pacman.
Carbo wrote:For what it's worth, I thought that while it was an entertaining fight, Mayweather won convincingly (albeit not by as much as suggested by the ludicrous scorecards; I had it 8-4 Mayweather).
Is Mayweather slowing down? Well, I think that the Compubox figures for the fight are telling. He landed only 26% of his punches, and while I'd need to look it up, I think that's about 20 percentage points down from his average. Furthermore, even though Cotto only landed around 21%, that's an improvement on the average for a Mayweather opponent, who usually land no more than mid-teens against the Pretty Boy. It means that his Compubox Plus/Minus figure, which has been for a decade the best-ever in the sport (and the best-ever by a mile), must have been way down on this fight, back in the realms of the merely mortal.
I believe that part of this was due to Cotto's excellent game plan. He didn't run in like an idiot and let himself be picked off, as Hatton did and others, specifically several Hispanic opponents at 130 and 135, have done. Like Castillo, his pressure was so measured that it might be difficult to call it "pressure" at all. He came in with a good, high guard, behind a solid and, in my view, superbly timed, jab, and used exemplary footwork to quarter the ring. Furthermore, I noticed that on several occasions, Cotto would, when he had Mayweather against the ropes, end a combination on a jab -- which is something I remember the Puerto Rican doing as a youngster, and is a classy way of controlling exchanges by not allowing the opponent to come back after a combo.
Furthermore, Cotto is strong and, while he hasn't got lightning hand speed, is still reasonably quick, and while he's not an outstanding technician, has above average technique. This allowed him to land the jab regularly, and control Mayweather's lead right -- basically his honey punch down the years.
Some may, of course, argue that it was not so much Cotto's jab that negated Mayweather's right, but that Mayweather is slowing. I'm not sure about that, but it is true that Mayweather was noticeably less effective with it, and only really had any success when he widened the punch and made it into something resembling a hook, to go around Cotto's defence. This is not the way he usually does things, preferring to ping it with rapier-like speed down the pipe, or counter over the top of a jab (at least until later rounds, when he does sweep it in more, to get more power). Also, we shouldn't forget that it would only take Mayweather to have slowed by the merest fraction of a second -- perhaps one one-hundredth or so -- to be no longer quite able to counter over the top of, or get off before an opponent throws, a jab. We would probably notice in the punch statistics before we noticed in the ring, given the minuscule margins involved in boxing at the top level
But I don't know. Was it Cotto's better-than-expected jab exposing a long-term semi-weakness (I use the prefix 'semi-', because, in my opinion, Mayweather doesn't have anything like a 'real' weakness on the level of almost every other fighter) that has been highlighted before against De La Hoya, Castillo and Emanual Augustus, and can therefore not be used as evidence of Mayweather slowing? Or was it on this occasion a sign that he has, perhaps, lost that tiny fraction of a second?
I can't honestly say with any degree of certainty, but I'd be keen to hear the forum's views on this question.
What I can say, though, is that Mayweather's feet have most certainly slowed. He's simply not as flighty or as swift-footed as he used to be. He uses far less lateral movement. In recent fights, I have thought that this was a deliberate strategic decision to remove an opponent's key tactical strength. Much as Mosley defied expectations against Margarito by backing up the Tijuana-man, and forcing him to fight where he was least comfortable, on the back foot, so I thought that against Old Man Mosley and Ortiz, Mayweather was doing likewise. Now I'm not so sure. Thinking logically, he could have fought that way against Hatton and Baldomir -- neither of whom are particularly effective backing up -- but he didn't, winning both fights in the way one would expect Mayweather to do against pressure fighters, countering off the back foot, and using lots of lateral movement and angles.
Whether I'm right or wrong in that, I think it's fair to say that six years ago, he would definitely have fought Cotto in a different manner. On Saturday, he settled down onto the flats of his feet right away, and when he backed up, he did so -- amazingly, for those of us who have followed him all his career -- in a straight line. It was this that allowed him to be forced to the ropes, even if his outstanding shell/shoulder-roll defence meant he didn't take as many shots as would have other fighters who walk back in a straight line. Of course, he still did a bit of moving on the balls of his feet, but a tiny fraction of what we saw up until his two big fights in 2007.
Is this a strategic decision to make for more entertaining fights, and thus maximize his revenue? Well, it is true that he now has a new model of doing business (in which the promoter, arena and TV company are essentially sub-contracted to him) that makes him vast sums of money for each fight, but also places the financial risk squarely on his, rather than the the promoter's, TV company's and arena's, shoulders; however, in my view, that's doubtful. Mayweather has never really been one who has given two hoots about anyone else's opinion. He craves adulation, that's true, but rather than being the sort to give the crowd and pundits what they want to get it, he's been the sort to resentfully tell the world that they're wrong and he's right when they don't. And he's made a fortune even being a fighter who was considered by many to be boring.
Or is it perhaps the tactical influence of Roger Mayweather, who has always wanted Floyd to be more of an offensive fighter than Floyd Sr, who is more defence oriented? Again, doubtful, I think, because Roger's been Floyd's trainer for ages, and it's only now we've seen the difference.
Furthermore, in other areas, Floyd is still noticeably risk-averse. His selection of opponent, and his willingness to take other risks in a fight, are still safety first. For instance, if Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley or Felix Trinidad had hurt Cotto with that uppercut in the last round as Floyd did, you can be certain they'd have thrown caution to the wind to try to finish him. Floyd was happy with to know that hurting Cotto would make him reluctant to further attack, and back off to coast to the win.
What I'm interested in is what all this says for a potential matchup with Pacquiao. If Pacquaio is in long term decline, which he might be, given his recent then probably not much: still a convincing Mayweather win. However, if, as Freddie Roach contends, Pacquiao is refocused and back on the wagon after some profligate living, then it might say a great deal. Pacquaio is far faster of hand and foot than Cotto, shows more angles, and, although he has a looser guard, has better head movement, at least in the early rounds. The hand speed and ability to throw combinations is also considerably better than Cotto. More importantly, we know that even at 147, Pacquiao has freakish power, and I think that some of the punches Cotto was just missing with might land, and that if they do, they'll take a greater toll on Mayweather.
I've always thought that Mayweather would do a number on Pacquaio, but now I'm not sure.
That's not to say I'm joining the knee-jerk crowd: Mayweather on Saturday was still exceptional and fought a superb fight against a world class opponent. He's still the outstanding boxer of his generation and the best defensive fighter. Nobody under 160 could be considered favourite to beat him, and only one fighter, in my view, Martinez, close to evens. But I do think that there are one or two signs there that he's now more vulnerable than at any stage in the past.
