Longest winless streak.

[josco]

Bheki has deserved a couple of wins/draws based on the handful of fights I've seen. Based on his record he looks pretty useless but he's far from useless. I regularly go to small hall shows and there are much worse journeymen out there. He rarely gets badly beaten or bruised up. I think he's just missing the will to win.

I would never, ever begrudge any journeyman for making a very hard earned living from the sport and most seem to be pretty good guys - but my strong personal belief is that they are simply paid to lose, which is a subject almost always skated over (included by the BBBofC).

[The Law]

Bheki has deserved a couple of wins/draws based on the handful of fights I've seen. Based on his record he looks pretty useless but he's far from useless. I regularly go to small hall shows and there are much worse journeymen out there. He rarely gets badly beaten or bruised up. I think he's just missing the will to win.

I would never, ever begrudge any journeyman for making a very hard earned living from the sport and most seem to be pretty good guys - but my strong personal belief is that they are simply paid to lose, which is a subject almost always skated over (included by the BBBofC).

It is not 'skated over'. The fact remains that no concrete evidence has been given to the board. Not even one witness. The board can't act on mere hearsay or someone's 'strong belief'. Until there is evidence then this discussion shall not continue due to the risk of defamation.

Also, how does this explain the numerous upsets caused by various journeymen?

[The Law]

I would never, ever begrudge any journeyman for making a very hard earned living from the sport and most seem to be pretty good guys - but my strong personal belief is that they are simply paid to lose, which is a subject almost always skated over (included by the BBBofC).

It is not 'skated over'. The fact remains that no concrete evidence has been given to the board. Not even one witness. The board can't act on mere hearsay or someone's 'strong belief'. Until there is evidence then this discussion shall not continue due to the risk of defamation.

Also, how does this explain the numerous upsets caused by various journeymen?

Of course no ones going to admit to it. How many upsets has Bheki caused? I know 3 fighters that have won a total of 3-4 between them out of 150 fights so not many upsets there plus one had won about 2 rounds in 20 odd fights but he Never got his licence revoked why because he
Never got bashed so thats ok.You work for the board and you're basically saying as long as someone doesn't get bashed its ok to go winless in 50 fights? I told one of my fighters the other day to wrap it in because he hadn't won in 4 fights and that's just lowly white collar yet the PROFESSIONAL board say its ok to go winless in 50 because they don't get bashed. And therein lies a massive part of the decline in pro boxing

Who said anything about Bheki causing an upset? He is a rare example of a journeyman without an upset win on his record (despite gallant efforts). There are numerous examples of journeymen causing an upset. In fact the vast majority of journeymen I have come across have a few upset wins on their record (even Sid Razak). If they were paid to lose then why did they upset these prospects?

This speculation has been going on for decades but no-one brings any concrete evidence whatsoever. It's purely your opinion and you are entitled to it but please do not name any names because it could be libelous. Until any evidence is brought forward then the speculation will continue without any merit. British boxing is the cleanest in the world .... in my opinion

[josco]

Bheki has deserved a couple of wins/draws based on the handful of fights I've seen. Based on his record he looks pretty useless but he's far from useless. I regularly go to small hall shows and there are much worse journeymen out there. He rarely gets badly beaten or bruised up. I think he's just missing the will to win.

I would never, ever begrudge any journeyman for making a very hard earned living from the sport and most seem to be pretty good guys - but my strong personal belief is that they are simply paid to lose, which is a subject almost always skated over (included by the BBBofC).

It is not 'skated over'. The fact remains that no concrete evidence has been given to the board. Not even one witness. The board can't act on mere hearsay or someone's 'strong belief'. Until there is evidence then this discussion shall not continue due to the risk of defamation.

Also, how does this explain the numerous upsets caused by various journeymen?

Yeah Yeah! D

[LeedsLad]

I don't think it's defamatory at all, it's factual.

I think pretty much everyone has been at a show and see a journeyman that's so clearly superior to the house fighter, but doesn't seem to force the action at all, instead backing off and letting the house fighter take the rounds on the grounds of ''effective aggression''.

Now to me, that's fixing fights.

Of course, a greater issue to me are the numerous 77-76/58-57 scorecards that we see.... which quite clearly are ridiculous.

[spudder56]

Bheki has deserved a couple of wins/draws based on the handful of fights I've seen. Based on his record he looks pretty useless but he's far from useless. I regularly go to small hall shows and there are much worse journeymen out there. He rarely gets badly beaten or bruised up. I think he's just missing the will to win.

I would agree with that

[The Law]

I don't think it's defamatory at all, it's factual.

I think pretty much everyone has been at a show and see a journeyman that's so clearly superior to the house fighter, but doesn't seem to force the action at all, instead backing off and letting the house fighter take the rounds on the grounds of ''effective aggression''.

Now to me, that's fixing fights.

Again, that's just your opinion based upon what you saw, it's not 'factual' at all. You can not prove the specific reason he did not force the action, maybe he was tired or was preserving energy. Actual evidence would include money exchanging hands and a promoter/manager asking a fighter to make sure he does not win the fight. I don't think you quite understand defamation law. If, for example, you said Bheki Moyo was paid to lose a fight and was purposely trying to lose then he could sue this site for allowing defamatory comments to be posted on the forum. We have had legal cases made against us before (costing us thousands) purely because of opinions of forum members which they referred to as 'facts' but they were clearly not 'facts', as illustrated above.

I have never come across any actual evidence whatsoever of a British journeyman purposely throwing a fight. If you have any evidence then please send it my way (via private message) or contact the board head office. In the mean time please do not post allegations on the forum.

[Final round]

Bheki has deserved a couple of wins/draws based on the handful of fights I've seen. Based on his record he looks pretty useless but he's far from useless. I regularly go to small hall shows and there are much worse journeymen out there. He rarely gets badly beaten or bruised up. I think he's just missing the will to win.

I would never, ever begrudge any journeyman for making a very hard earned living from the sport and most seem to be pretty good guys - but my strong personal belief is that they are simply paid to lose, which is a subject almost always skated over (included by the BBBofC).

They are most certainly booked because they do not try to win, which produces the same result as a fix.
Just give the home fighter a work out/run around etc and try to get through without shipping to much before they pick up the dough for next weeks scrap.
No doubt there is a skill to the journeyman but they know their purpose and everyone else does too.

[banjo]

What makes a man with a long winless streak carry on? Different sport but when I raced motorbikes as a teen I soon realised I wasn't skillfull or brave enough to be anything other than a backmarker so I packed it in sure I got a thrill but it's an expensive thrill when you're not winning. It's always baffled me, I know there's some guys on here who have been or are journeymen so it would be interesting to see there perspective.

[banjo]

What makes a man with a long winless streak carry on? Different sport but when I raced motorbikes as a teen I soon realised I wasn't skillfull or brave enough to be anything other than a backmarker so I packed it in sure I got a thrill but it's an expensive thrill when you're not winning. It's always baffled me, I know there's some guys on here who have been or are journeymen so it would be interesting to see there perspective.

££££££

Does it really pay that much though?

[Final round]

Very true in most cases this is how its done a promoter/matchmaker phones a journeyman up and says I'd like you to have a little move around with a ticket seller which basically means go down on points. Which i they dont they get someone who will next time. It's like in the film a few good men when Tom Cruise says to jack Nicholson show me the part in the marines code of honour book that says where the mess hall is and he doesnt know but he knows how to get there its just the way that it is and they go with the flow otherwise they lose next a weeks pay which without actually being cheating is definitely cheating

Not seen that film but you're right, in some cases the matchmakers know what they are paying for and if they don't get it then the away fighters number gets lost, pure record manipulation.

[The Law]

What makes a man with a long winless streak carry on? Different sport but when I raced motorbikes as a teen I soon realised I wasn't skillfull or brave enough to be anything other than a backmarker so I packed it in sure I got a thrill but it's an expensive thrill when you're not winning. It's always baffled me, I know there's some guys on here who have been or are journeymen so it would be interesting to see there perspective.

££££££

Does it really pay that much though?

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

[LeedsLad]

I don't think it's defamatory at all, it's factual.

I think pretty much everyone has been at a show and see a journeyman that's so clearly superior to the house fighter, but doesn't seem to force the action at all, instead backing off and letting the house fighter take the rounds on the grounds of ''effective aggression''.

Now to me, that's fixing fights.

Again, that's just your opinion based upon what you saw, it's not 'factual' at all. You can not prove the specific reason he did not force the action, maybe he was tired or was preserving energy. Actual evidence would include money exchanging hands and a promoter/manager asking a fighter to make sure he does not win the fight. I don't think you quite understand defamation law. If, for example, you said Bheki Moyo was paid to lose a fight and was purposely trying to lose then he could sue this site for allowing defamatory comments to be posted on the forum. We have had legal cases made against us before (costing us thousands) purely because of opinions of forum members which they referred to as 'facts' but they were clearly not 'facts', as illustrated above.

I have never come across any actual evidence whatsoever of a British journeyman purposely throwing a fight. If you have any evidence then please send it my way (via private message) or contact the board head office. In the mean time please do not post allegations on the forum.

Have a word with yourself you plank.

Of course I've not overheard whispers or seen money changing hands, but I've seen many a journeyman not try, or carry a 'prospect' in a fight.

I understand defamation law very well thank you very much, I've received threatening emails from someone who shall not be named for basically saying that I don't like the man.

Johnny Greaves once said in Boxing Monthly that he was in a fight with a kid and (I roughly quote) ''knew I could beat him but nursed him through the last couple of rounds''.

You've clearly got an agenda, given that you've admitted you work for the board.... who aren't exactly the most credible sporting organisation on the planet for various reasons - I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss these at length with senior board members in fact - and need to open your eyes as to what goes on in the ring.

Ban me if you want, but you won't stop me speaking my mind. I know what I can and can't say.

[keithmoonhangover]

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... ilit=+lose

[Final round]

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

They don't need to be specifically ASKED to lose they know their roles, they want the regular cash. Now and again they may get the sudden urge to go for it and they might get a win but I imagine there is a don't go doing that again for a while attitude to it especially if they do a big ticket seller! I bet your name goes right to the bottom of the promoters phone book then..

[The Law]

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... ilit=+lose

Interesting thread but still not any evidence of a British boxer being paid to lose. Not one name. A lot of idle hearsay and rumours but no facts. The one poster in that thread with any merit that stood out was 'Coco' who was a British journeyman with over 50 fights and he said that he was never paid to lose.

[keithmoonhangover]

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... ilit=+lose

Interesting thread but still not any evidence of a British boxer being paid to lose. Not one name. A lot of idle hearsay and rumours but no facts. The one poster in that thread with any merit that stood out was 'Coco' who was a British journeyman with over 50 fights and he said that he was never paid to lose.

There are people paid to lose in most sports. Why do you think boxing is different?

[banjo]

££££££

Does it really pay that much though?

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

I'm not disputing that I'm just trying to get in the head of that sort of fighter into what makes a man still want to carry on fighting when they no they're not good enough to be more than a statistic, ok every now and then you get an upset but it's extremely rare. I'm just saying from my outlook there's no way I could carry on doing something if I had no chance of furthering my career in that particular field, Billy has put forward the money aspect, I'm wondering if there's anything else that makes them tick.

[The Law]

Does it really pay that much though?

Journeymen can get a decent pay day on a televised show (in contrast on small hall shows they tend to get a few hundred quid) but at no point are they specifically asked to lose hence the numerous upsets that have been caused by journeymen. Lets make that clear. If there is any evidence to the contrary then please put it forward.

I'm not disputing that I'm just trying to get in the head of that sort of fighter into what makes a man still want to carry on fighting when they no they're not good enough to be more than a statistic, ok every now and then you get an upset but it's extremely rare. I'm just saying from my outlook there's no way I could carry on doing something if I had no chance of furthering my career in that particular field, Billy has put forward the money aspect, I'm wondering if there's anything else that makes them tick.

I know a few journeymen and some of them just love fighting, the money is just a bonus. For example Andrew Patterson loves a fight. He would do it for free if there was no money in the sport. Fighting can be very addictive and boxing stops some guys from brawling on the street. Some people just love a scrap and enjoy pain, as crazy as it may seem.

[jonp]

Paddy is a great example of guys who come to win even when its all against them.
Quick example hes the away guy against JJ Bird in peterboro Pat gets on the scales a pound under the agreed weigh of 11 stone.Bird jumps on at 11.12 looking like hes took it for granted and didnt have to bother.The board guy told Paddy you dont have to fight hes took the piss and youl still get paid i advise you not too.
quick team meeting which resulted it Patt saying im gonna punch his head for taking the piss.
Patt went to the ring and steam rollered Bird and actualy acheived one of his ambitions of winning a fight on points lol.

[Datsue]

My winless streak I alluded to earlier ended the other night.

[Craig14]

Paddy is a great example of guys who come to win even when its all against them.
Quick example hes the away guy against JJ Bird in peterboro Pat gets on the scales a pound under the agreed weigh of 11 stone.Bird jumps on at 11.12 looking like hes took it for granted and didnt have to bother.The board guy told Paddy you dont have to fight hes took the piss and youl still get paid i advise you not too.
quick team meeting which resulted it Patt saying im gonna punch his head for taking the piss.
Patt went to the ring and steam rollered Bird and actualy acheived one of his ambitions of winning a fight on points lol.

I remember watching your guy in crawley a couple of years back knocked out Nicky Jedman in the 4th after Jedman had won every round, got goaded by all his fans and was answering back at them inbetween rounds. It's a good debate on here about the need for journeyman fighter, and I'm not stupid I get that a young prospect needs rounds and to get used to the pro game but even you have admit that 0-48-2 is ridiculous.

[jonp]

Paddy is a great example of guys who come to win even when its all against them.
Quick example hes the away guy against JJ Bird in peterboro Pat gets on the scales a pound under the agreed weigh of 11 stone.Bird jumps on at 11.12 looking like hes took it for granted and didnt have to bother.The board guy told Paddy you dont have to fight hes took the piss and youl still get paid i advise you not too.
quick team meeting which resulted it Patt saying im gonna punch his head for taking the piss.
Patt went to the ring and steam rollered Bird and actualy acheived one of his ambitions of winning a fight on points lol.

I remember watching your guy in crawley a couple of years back knocked out Nicky Jedman in the 4th after Jedman had won every round, got goaded by all his fans and was answering back at them inbetween rounds. It's a good debate on here about the need for journeyman fighter, and I'm not stupid I get that a young prospect needs rounds and to get used to the pro game but even you have admit that 0-48-2 is ridiculous.

Yeh Nicky Jenman had won every minute of every round But patterson is the type of lad who instead going into a shell he trys to knock there block off.Yeh a record like that is bad but the odd thing is becki moyo isnt that bad I dont quite understand why he hasnt got a win yet.Hes awkward tough and givies it a go just by law of averages he should have got one by now.