Ignored truth and facts: Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali

[Rover]

Providence Civic Center

Providence, Rhode Island

Attendance; 12,500 (mostly Italian)

Scorecards;
* 145-143 (Lorenzo Zanon)........scored last round 10-10 Even
* 144-144 (Even)......................scored last round 10-10 Even
* 145-142 (Lorenzo Zanon)........scored last round 10-9 Lorenzo Zanon

Lorenzo Zanon, 'I respect Muhammad Ali, but he was not prepared for my fast style. He took me too lightly.
I will give him a rematch, but it will be in Bologna, Italy.'

Muhammad Ali, 'I'm not used to fighting Italians.'

Showing once again how much nonsense this is, as there is no way a computer program could know how human beings in a subjective sport would score each round even if the fight occurred *exactly* as the program had predicted.

[Flump]

Since when was Zanon a southpaw? Amongst other things...

[Rover]

Since when was Zanon a southpaw? Amongst other things...

Remember, the computer is all-knowing.

[Ezzard]

Providence Civic Center

Providence, Rhode Island

Attendance; 12,500 (mostly Italian)

Scorecards;
* 145-143 (Lorenzo Zanon)........scored last round 10-10 Even
* 144-144 (Even)......................scored last round 10-10 Even
* 145-142 (Lorenzo Zanon)........scored last round 10-9 Lorenzo Zanon

Lorenzo Zanon, 'I respect Muhammad Ali, but he was not prepared for my fast style. He took me too lightly.
I will give him a rematch, but it will be in Bologna, Italy.'

Muhammad Ali, 'I'm not used to fighting Italians.'

Showing once again how much nonsense this is, as there is no way a computer program could know how human beings in a subjective sport would score each round even if the fight occurred *exactly* as the program had predicted.

Seriously, Rover…

Computer programs are just models of life, some good, some bad… It’s no different to the models used by bookies (who seem never to go out of business), psychologists (to predict human behaviour), financial institutions etc…

Although this Zanon business is sort of insane it’s been highly amusing, so thanks to Il Duce for being such a good sport.

Just can’t help but think that Ali was very beatable at this stage in his career and even if Zanon did beat him…wouldn’t change my perception of Ali as a fighter.

[Flump]

My thoughts are if Ali can beat Earnie Shavers in 77, he can certainly beat Zanon.

Zanon had good skills no question, but his chin was awful, an "on top" boxer if ever there was one.

[BoxBuzz]

I am quite familiar with computerized simulated fights......and the most sophisticated of all computers (Deep Blue) has added this caveat to this fight which indicates an easy points win for Ali.

Zanon was a ladies man, and the computer says a beautiful dark haired lady is sitting in the front row, (a past flame) getting LZ's attention. This is all it took to swing the dynamics Ali's way. As Zanon attempts to "look good" for the fair maiden, he takes his eyes off the prize and Ali sneeks a decisive points win past the Italian.

The computer always factors in the personal dynamics and what they mean to the fighters. Such as if Elvis, Sinatra or any big names show up, this can affect the boxers's egos thus performance. ...Twas beauty in this case that doomed the LZ beast. As Ali surely could not have done it on his own.

This is the final simulated say on the subject......case closed.

Sorry Frankenfrank....or Il Duce.......who's thread is this anyway?

[Woller]

Over here in Europe we did not have Lorenzo Zanon in our top-10.

On the other hand we did not have Mussolini (Il Duce) either.

Woller

[Datsue]

Over here in Europe we did not have Lorenzo Zanon in our top-10.

On the other hand we did not have Mussolini (Il Duce) either.

Woller

Ali threads are like fuckwit troll magnets, aren't they?

I mean, the only people who seem to want to post about him are guys named after fascists, that twat granberry, loonies with conspiracy theories whose syntax degenerates into randomness you'd need an Enigma decoding machine to unravel the moment they're called upon to express something to back up their bullshit, & 17 year old (or perma-17 year old) virginal Mike Tyson fans asking us to believe Ali would have gone the same way as Michael Spinks, as long as Cus D'Amato was involved.

I only click on them these days when I feel like being unkind to someone.

[BoxBuzz]

I think Robinson would attract the same sort of fanatics, except the zealots on both sides of his equation are dissapearing at a rate of 100,000 a day....(The greatest generation and all).....Whereas those who knew of Ali are old but not dropping dead of natural causes in such numbers (yet) and many of them want to excercise their computer skills. ......Or they will forget them......

[Rover]

Computer Fights,

If programmed correctly can be quite accurate. Of course there are certain items that cannot be
be inserted into a boxer's profile.

As for February 1977, a quick-fisted boxer with good footwork and good stamina would be a very difficult
opponent for Muhammad Ali.

Power would not be that much of an advantage against an 'Old Muhammad Ali'. Lorenzo Zanon, despite
'shaky whiskers' would be a 'pest' for the Champion. And Muhammad no longer had any real power.

Lorenzo's quickness and Muhammad's slow pace over the first 3-Rounds, would allow the Italian to
gain a 30-27 point lead. Muhammad's plan, to let Lorenzo burn himself up, and then come on over
the second-half of the bout, and stop the tired and 'weak-chinned' Challenger late in the bout.

When the Champion tries to stem the tide in Round 4, he finds out that Lorenzo is a bit too quick for him.
While attempting to land hard punches in Round 4, Muhammad will get his nose bloodied by some quick
(but not hard) punches from Lorenzo.

After Round 4, Muhammad Ali realizes he's in a fight, and that Zanon is not here to fall down from the first
hard punch that is landed on his chin.

Muhammad will start to get back into the fight in Round 5, by going flat-footed and shooting out stiff left jabs
to Lorenzo's head, driving the Challenger backwards, and keeping him on the defensive.

Round 6, Ali is putting more power into his punches, by fighting with a flat-footed style. The Champion
presses the Challenger, and is looking for a 'homerun-punch'. Zanon stays on the move, and will not allow
himself to be suckered into a right-hand lead.

Rounds 7 and 8, the Champion has his best rounds, as he is able to land solid left jabs on the fleeing Italian.
Lorenzo is biding his time, and making Muhammad use up his energy.

Round 9, Ali goes into cruise-mode, in an attempt to not burn himself up. Zanon takes the offensive, and
pecks away with right jabs, while Ali is taking Round 9 off. But late in the Round, the Champion opens up
with a fast flurry, and surprises Zanon with a sharp right-left-left at the 2:50 Mark. (Even Round)

Round 10, Muhammad, thinking that he stunned Zanon in the previous Round, opens up fast. But his punches
have no 'zip', and Lorenzo scampers untouched. The Challenger again flicks out his pesky right jab, while
Muhammad presses looking for the one-punch bang. Lorenzo meets Muhammad at 'center-ring' and engages
in a fast exchange. Lorenzo out-flashes the Champion, and the crowd at the Civic Center is in a 'frenzy', lead
by the Italian Contingent.

After Round 10, the bout is now 'Even'
Scorecards;
* 97-96 (Zanon)
* 96-96 (Even)
* 97-97 (Even)

Ah, they *can* be quite accurate? And *if programmed correctly*?
But this is my favorite part:
"Of course there are certain items that cannot be inserted into a boxer's profile."
And other items, too, like how three human beings whose names are unknown will score a fight.

[Rover]

Rover,

Riddle me this.

In Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali's entire career......

Was he ever on the bad end of a judge's scoring card.

I'm not interested in riddles. That has nothing to do with my response--except to reinforce it. A computer can't predict how three unnamed humans will score a fight.

[Giancarlo]

That has nothing to do with my response--except to reinforce it. A computer can't predict how three unnamed humans will score a fight.

Mussolini's apologist knows that; that's why he is once again trying to muddy the waters.

[Rover]

But the computer just did,,,,,,,,

It had Lorenzo Zanon as the winner.

It also had Muhammad Ali defeating Jimmy Young, just like in real life.

And that has nothing to do with my point--that a machine can't predict how three unknown humans will score a fight.

[Giancarlo]

But the computer just did,,,,,,,,

It had Lorenzo Zanon as the winner.

It also had Muhammad Ali defeating Jimmy Young, just like in real life.

Benito, maybe you could run a few upcoming fights through this "computer" in advance so we can see it "working"?

[Rover]

But the computer just did,,,,,,,,

It had Lorenzo Zanon as the winner.

It also had Muhammad Ali defeating Jimmy Young, just like in real life.

Benito, maybe you could run a few upcoming fights through this "computer" in advance so we can see it "working"?

Ali had 23 decisions in his pro career. He was 19-4. This computer's having predicted he'd win a decision v. Young isn't that impressive to me, considering that the only two he stopped after Frazier III were Dunn and that Belgian tanker.

[Giancarlo]

But the computer just did,,,,,,,,

It had Lorenzo Zanon as the winner.

It also had Muhammad Ali defeating Jimmy Young, just like in real life.

Benito, maybe you could run a few upcoming fights through this "computer" in advance so we can see it "working"?

I can't do that, it will throw off the odds, and effect my lucrative betting business.

Now, why was I sure you wouldn't agree...

[Rover]

Giancarlo,,,,,,,

I do agree,,,,,,,,no computer could have come up with the result of the Muhammad Ali vs. Sonny Liston II bout in Lewiston, Maine.

Mine, would have died laughing.

Another silly non-response when cornered.

[NazNaci1]

This does sound like Granberry. not Granberry returns but the original!

All we are lacking is a ' Shill ' or two and may I venture the odd 'Deity' (he knows what I mean).

[Rover]

This does sound like Granberry. not Granberry returns but the original!

All we are lacking is a ' Shill ' or two and may I venture the odd 'Deity' (he knows what I mean).

I've heard a lot about this granberry character; sounds like a real prize.

[Rover]

Duke Sabedong was the first professional boxer to win a scored round over Cassius Clay.

So what?

[yancey]

My classic memory of Muhammad Ali,,,,

D-Con Commercials,,,,,,,,,,,,,beautifully produced.

Yes, that did have a certain symmetry.

[Rover]

More Facts,,,,

Ford Motor Company chose Lee Trevino as their Television Commercial Spokesman over Muhammad Ali.

Lee Trevino had a higher 'Q' rating and a more favorable response from the middle-class buying public.

And again, so what?

[BoxBuzz]

I would take from thes advertizing facts that it is possible Golf is overall a more civil sport than boxing.

But I think Marvin Hagler alluded to this truth in subtle ways in his Right Guard ad.

And of course Ali was being violent (as is the way of boxing) with his plea to the general public to "kill roaches".

Thus further mucking up the waters of what he might do if armed with a Ford Torino.

It's all about perceptions in the advertizing game.

[BoxBuzz]

If granberry has returned, then he has found the proper "coctail for civlity", and I approve.

granberry of old, suffered no fools, and had little patience with questions.

However, this incarnation (if in fact any relative to the orginal) does have the same delicate balance of gobbledee gook and nonsense that the orginal was fond of dabbling with.

[Rover]

Lets give Lee Trevino credit,

He refused to do the D-Con TV Commercials, as he said he did not want his race to be 'stigmatized'
with the association of Roaches.

As Lee said, we are a civilized race, and hire professional 'Pest Control Companies' to deal with our infestation.

I decline to give someone credit for having refused to do something about which I care not an iota.