Ezzard wrote:I last saw the fight a long time ago. I remember Larry's hand getting caught on the ropes as he was trying to fight back. Am I imagining it or did Holmes do okay in the first 2 rounds?
Why did King offer Holmes the fight? Surely there must have been another challenger out there?
Larry looked very rusty and was trying to fight in his old style but just didn't have the legs or the reflexes. Against Holifield he was much sharper and was able to use the ring in spurts but also had started to use the ropes and fight off the ropes pretty good. Holmes adapted Ali's rope a dope and used the ropes to better effects really.
I think King wanted Tyson to beat Holmes because it would add weight to Tysons claim of being world champion as many still saw Holmes as the linear champion after his close fights with Spinks. Also King was smart enough to know that Holmes wouldn't have much chance of winning with only 2 months training.
I've always found it interesting that Tyson dodged a fight with Foreman... 8)
Ezzard wrote:I last saw the fight a long time ago. I remember Larry's hand getting caught on the ropes as he was trying to fight back. Am I imagining it or did Holmes do okay in the first 2 rounds?
Why did King offer Holmes the fight? Surely there must have been another challenger out there?
Larry looked very rusty and was trying to fight in his old style but just didn't have the legs or the reflexes. Against Holifield he was much sharper and was able to use the ring in spurts but also had started to use the ropes and fight off the ropes pretty good. Holmes adapted Ali's rope a dope and used the ropes to better effects really.
I think King wanted Tyson to beat Holmes because it would add weight to Tysons claim of being world champion as many still saw Holmes as the linear champion after his close fights with Spinks. Also King was smart enough to know that Holmes wouldn't have much chance of winning with only 2 months training.
I've always found it interesting that Tyson dodged a fight with Foreman... 8)
I have to say that I've heard this but I just can't believe it. George was really not that mobile and I really think the fight would have been a massacre. George still had the punch but he was so slow. I was very pleased this fight never happened. What do you knwo about the story?
Also, Tyson was always beaten up badly he was never really one punch KO'd. A young George would have hurt Tyson and followed up. The Old George could have hurt Tyson but I can't see that he would be quick enough to take full advantage.
But even the old foreman still had his punch and Jab and he had the power and strength to push Tyson back. Anyone who can push Tyson back can beat him and I think Foreman could have beaten Tyson... which is why he was so eager for the fight but Tyson didn't want to know.
silkov wrote:But even the old foreman still had his punch and Jab and he had the power and strength to push Tyson back. Anyone who can push Tyson back can beat him and I think Foreman could have beaten Tyson... which is why he was so eager for the fight but Tyson didn't want to know.
What source did you get this info from? I'm not saying it isn't possible. I think a prime George would have beaten Tyson but it would have been a close thing with 2 big punchers.
silkov wrote:But even the old foreman still had his punch and Jab and he had the power and strength to push Tyson back. Anyone who can push Tyson back can beat him and I think Foreman could have beaten Tyson... which is why he was so eager for the fight but Tyson didn't want to know.
What source did you get this info from? I'm not saying it isn't possible. I think a prime George would have beaten Tyson but it would have been a close thing with 2 big punchers.
Well, how the fight would go is my own opinion, but as to them fighting, Foreman said he wanted Tyson from the start of his (foremans) comeback and after Tyson came out of Jail Foreman said again that he'd fight Tyson. Tyson was always a bit hedgey on the subject and used to mentione Foremans age, but really he wasn't keen on the fight and this would have been a huge money match too.
Tyson had a very simular style to Frazier and this why Foreman always fancied his chances with Tyson... Tyson can't fight going backwards and even a older Foreman had the size, strenth and power to push him back... not to mention the jab too!...
silkov wrote:But even the old foreman still had his punch and Jab and he had the power and strength to push Tyson back. Anyone who can push Tyson back can beat him and I think Foreman could have beaten Tyson... which is why he was so eager for the fight but Tyson didn't want to know.
What source did you get this info from? I'm not saying it isn't possible. I think a prime George would have beaten Tyson but it would have been a close thing with 2 big punchers.
Well, how the fight would go is my own opinion, but as to them fighting, Foreman said he wanted Tyson from the start of his (foremans) comeback and after Tyson came out of Jail Foreman said again that he'd fight Tyson. Tyson was always a bit hedgey on the subject and used to mentione Foremans age, but really he wasn't keen on the fight and this would have been a huge money match too.
Tyson had a very simular style to Frazier and this why Foreman always fancied his chances with Tyson... Tyson can't fight going backwards and even a older Foreman had the size, strenth and power to push him back... not to mention the jab too!...
I think the whole world was behind Old George. It was a remarkable achievement to see him win back the title after so many years. I was living in Japan at the time and the fights used to come on (as live) about a week after the result but with no internet etc... I never knew the results. When he KO'd Moorer I was jumping around the apartment. I could not believe it. One of my fondest memories of living in Japan.
I can understand that style wise George fancied Tyson.
In those days Tyson seemed to respect other fighters, especially the old greats.
Ezzard wrote:Okay so what kind of fighter would give Holmes trouble and what tactics and strategies should they adopt to beat him?
The fighters who would give Holmes trouble would be Ali, and Jack Johnson... fighters with good jabs and speed... Louis had a good jab but was too slow footwise. Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles would have been harder fights for Holmes than Louis because of their styles. Norton had a style that troubled Holmes and Ali because he used to block their jabs with his right hand.
Ezzard wrote:Okay so what kind of fighter would give Holmes trouble and what tactics and strategies should they adopt to beat him?
The fighters who would give Holmes trouble would be Ali, and Jack Johnson... fighters with good jabs and speed... Louis had a good jab but was too slow footwise. Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles would have been harder fights for Holmes than Louis because of their styles. Norton had a style that troubled Holmes and Ali because he used to block their jabs with his right hand.
I agree.
What about one of the swarmers? They usually do well against boxers.
Ezzard wrote:Okay so what kind of fighter would give Holmes trouble and what tactics and strategies should they adopt to beat him?
The fighters who would give Holmes trouble would be Ali, and Jack Johnson... fighters with good jabs and speed... Louis had a good jab but was too slow footwise. Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles would have been harder fights for Holmes than Louis because of their styles. Norton had a style that troubled Holmes and Ali because he used to block their jabs with his right hand.
I agree.
What about one of the swarmers? They usually do well against boxers.
In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
silkov wrote:
The fighters who would give Holmes trouble would be Ali, and Jack Johnson... fighters with good jabs and speed... Louis had a good jab but was too slow footwise. Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles would have been harder fights for Holmes than Louis because of their styles. Norton had a style that troubled Holmes and Ali because he used to block their jabs with his right hand.
I agree.
What about one of the swarmers? They usually do well against boxers.
In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
Whilst I agree that Ali is a tough match up for Holmes I also believe that it's also true that Ali would not have enjoyed Holmes style at all. I think Holmes would have a very good chance of beating him.
I think Liston would be a hard fight for Larry. He had the jab and the power.
silkov wrote:In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
Of course, Larry never fought a good swarmer, so we really don't know how he would have fared. My thoughts are that a Frazier, Dempsey or Marciano would have been his Kryptonite.
And while I do consider Marvis Frazier a swarmer, he just wasn't sturdy enough to compete against the very top HW's.
silkov wrote:In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
Of course, Larry never fought a good swarmer, so we really don't know how he would have fared. My thoughts are that a Frazier, Dempsey or Marciano would have been his Kryptonite.
And while I do consider Marvis Frazier a swarmer, he just wasn't sturdy enough to compete against the very top HW's.
Holmes would be too mobile and fast for Frazier and Marciano and his jab would keep him ahead. Frazier would be the hardest fight but I think Holmes would beat him on points or late rounds stoppage. At his best Holmes was more mobile than the Ali that Frazier fought and would not go onto the ropes etc like Ali did against Frazier.
What about one of the swarmers? They usually do well against boxers.
In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
Whilst I agree that Ali is a tough match up for Holmes I also believe that it's also true that Ali would not have enjoyed Holmes style at all. I think Holmes would have a very good chance of beating him.
I think Liston would be a hard fight for Larry. He had the jab and the power.
I think a peak Ali of '67 would have the speed to beat a peak Holmes... but it would be a close fight.
silkov wrote:In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
Of course, Larry never fought a good swarmer, so we really don't know how he would have fared. My thoughts are that a Frazier, Dempsey or Marciano would have been his Kryptonite.
And while I do consider Marvis Frazier a swarmer, he just wasn't sturdy enough to compete against the very top HW's.
Holmes would be too mobile and fast for Frazier and Marciano and his jab would keep him ahead. Frazier would be the hardest fight but I think Holmes would beat him on points or late rounds stoppage. At his best Holmes was more mobile than the Ali that Frazier fought and would not go onto the ropes etc like Ali did against Frazier.
Well Norton eventually caught up with Holmes when they fought, and I think Frazier had better stamina, power and hand speed than Norton, so I'll go with Frazier in this matchup. Of course I rank Holmes higher in my all times, but Holmes never really fought anyone like Frazier, and Frazier was very adept at wearing down boxers.
The Great John L wrote:
Of course, Larry never fought a good swarmer, so we really don't know how he would have fared. My thoughts are that a Frazier, Dempsey or Marciano would have been his Kryptonite.
And while I do consider Marvis Frazier a swarmer, he just wasn't sturdy enough to compete against the very top HW's.
Holmes would be too mobile and fast for Frazier and Marciano and his jab would keep him ahead. Frazier would be the hardest fight but I think Holmes would beat him on points or late rounds stoppage. At his best Holmes was more mobile than the Ali that Frazier fought and would not go onto the ropes etc like Ali did against Frazier.
Well Norton eventually caught up with Holmes when they fought, and I think Frazier had better stamina, power and hand speed than Norton, so I'll go with Frazier in this matchup. Of course I rank Holmes higher in my all times, but Holmes never really fought anyone like Frazier, and Frazier was very adept at wearing down boxers.
Yeah but Frazier would be banged up by the later rounds against Holmes. Larrys jab would be firing in on Frazier regularly... Norton didn't take as many jabs because his style allowed him to block most of Holmes jabs.
Holmes also had a bit more power than Ali and I think this could cause Frazier trouble......
swarmers like marciano and dempsey with TWO FISTED power would give loads of problems to holmes. frazier would also. larry was more suceptible to a right hand, so i would give guys like marciano, and dempsey a good chance at catching holmes like weaver, snipes, and shavers, etc did. they would be able to cut off the ring against holmes and put too much pressure on him.
IMO tyson and marciano stood the best chance of the swarmers to beat holmes
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:swarmers like marciano and dempsey with TWO FISTED power would give loads of problems to holmes. frazier would also. larry was more suceptible to a right hand, so i would give guys like marciano, and dempsey a good chance at catching holmes like weaver, snipes, and shavers, etc did. they would be able to cut off the ring against holmes and put too much pressure on him.
IMO tyson and marciano stood the best chance of the swarmers to beat holmes
But swarmers always have trouble with movers with good jabs such as Holmes... both Rocky and Tyson had trouble with boxers with simular styles to Holmes and none of those boxers were as good as Holmes.
I think Rocky and Joe would give Holmes harder fights than Tyson, but Larry would still beat them.
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:swarmers like marciano and dempsey with TWO FISTED power would give loads of problems to holmes. frazier would also. larry was more suceptible to a right hand, so i would give guys like marciano, and dempsey a good chance at catching holmes like weaver, snipes, and shavers, etc did. they would be able to cut off the ring against holmes and put too much pressure on him.
IMO tyson and marciano stood the best chance of the swarmers to beat holmes
Against Holmes, Tyson would have eaten a bunch of jabs and right hands and would have been looking for a way out by about the 5th or 6th round. While he possessed great skills, he lacked the heart and will of a great fighter.
And BB, quit raggin on Frazier about being a one handed fighter. While he didn't have the snap in his right that he had in his left hook, he still used it effectively. If it was the weakness that you seem to imply, Joe would have been easy pickins for Ali since he could have just ignored Joes right. He had enough on his right to worry his opponents.
dont say im raggin on frazier, i defend him here more than most people. frazier is also one of my favorite fighters. in fact i say frazier would beat holmes in a split decision. i just think marciano and tyson would do a better job against holmes. holmes was more suceptible to big right hands.
I disagree with BB here. I think Frazier is a bigger threat to Holmes than Tyson or Marciano. Frazier was more well rounded than both Tyson or Marciano and fight inside or outside.
And with Tyson. I'm a big Tyson fan, but I can't see him working inside on Holmes. Holmes had a great jab with a good cross, and had power and speed. This would not be the old Holmes who fell to Tyson. He would continue what he was doing in 88 and outbox Tyson, finishing Tyson late.
Overall Holmes was a physically strong boxer-puncher who could mix it up effectively on the inside. I don't think a swarmer would have any better shot than anybody else. Holmes would be a major test for any fighter. I personally only see Liston, Louis, and Johnson beating a prime Holmes, and all three would be close fights, including against Louis though I see Louis stopping him in 10.
Maybe BoxRec should have a site set up just for Larry Holmes. Or posters should just do a TOPIC search before coming up with yet another Holmes scenario - just build on one page like the JohnnyBombs/AC thread.
Ezzard wrote:With his jab, chin, stamina and fearlessness Holmes would have dealt with Tyson in his younger years. Mike paid him a lot of respect after the fight. I was horrified when the match was made.
i think a prime holmes vs. a prime tyson could be an interesting matchup.. i dont think that holmes would handle tyson so easily, tyson utterly dominated in his prime.
silkov wrote:
In a way the swarmers give the boxers trouble but Holmes was so fast and underrated in terms of strength and power that he could deal with swarmers and punchers quite well. Larrys jab would have controled most swarmers. Holmes was floored by big punchers Shavers and Snipes but they were unorthadox (in style) brawlers which made them more unpredictable and this is why I think Larry was caught by them. Someone like Frazier, Marciano or Tyson was more predictable in style if you know what I mean. 8)
Whilst I agree that Ali is a tough match up for Holmes I also believe that it's also true that Ali would not have enjoyed Holmes style at all. I think Holmes would have a very good chance of beating him.
I think Liston would be a hard fight for Larry. He had the jab and the power.
I think a peak Ali of '67 would have the speed to beat a peak Holmes... but it would be a close fight.
a peak 1967 Ali, handles any heavyweight fighter that every boxed at any age. period.
8) 