Floyd Patterson vrs Archie Moore-A Tank Job?

[HomicideHenry]

Level 1: Truly great , the all timers.
Level 2: Elite Champions
Level 3: Contenders
Level 4: Gatekeepers
Level 5: 2nd tiers who are above but not quite journeyman
Level 6: Journeyman
Level 7: 3rd Tiers(Shitcan bums)

Lmao, No....

1. Truly Great, All Time Level Fighters

2. Elite Champions (Title HolderS)

3. Contenders (Top ten)

4. Gatekeepers/Fringe Contenders

5. Journeymen

6. Second Tiers

7. Third Tiers (Shitcan Bums)

One can argue there is a degree of seperation between all these levels, so there could be in theory as many as fourteen, but I think seven is appropriate. I can give all around examples of people from each level if you wish. And we will start with the heavyweight division as a example. And why not use the career of someone is was an all-time great? How about Mike Tyson?

Shitcan Bum= Hecter Mercedes

Second Tiers= Take your pick of the sub-level guys who were better than Mercedes and less than Jameson

Journeymen= Mike Jameson

Gatekeeper/Fringe Contender= Jesse Ferguson

Contender= Jose Ribalta

Elite Champions= Trevor Berbick/James Smith/Michael Spinks/Tony Tucker

All-Time Greats= Larry Holmes

[Ambling Alp II]

As for the original thread, no Moore did not do a tank job. It wasn't his best fight, but Patterson was just too good anyway.

As for the tiers; a few suggestions:
Put Ribalta in with the fringe contenders. He was never a serious contender and probably was not as good as Ferguson. Fighters such as Ernie Schaaf, Eddie Machen, Carl Williams were real contenders.

Would change the title of the Level 2. Take out "Elite Champions". It makes it seem that fighters such as Tucker, Smith, Berbick were better than average champions. Just call them title holders.

Of course you can have as many levels as you want; but I think you certainly have to have at least one level between titleholders and ATG's.
Call them "Average Champions" or something like that. Guys like Max Schmeling, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles etc. would fit in there.

[HomicideHenry]

As for the original thread, no Moore did not do a tank job. It wasn't his best fight, but Patterson was just too good anyway.

As for the tiers; a few suggestions:
Put Ribalta in with the fringe contenders. He was never a serious contender and probably was not as good as Ferguson. Fighters such as Ernie Schaaf, Eddie Machen, Carl Williams were real contenders.

Would change the title of the Level 2. Take out "Elite Champions". It makes it seem that fighters such as Tucker, Smith, Berbick were better than average champions. Just call them title holders.

Of course you can have as many levels as you want; but I think you certainly have to have at least one level between titleholders and ATG's.
Call them "Average Champions" or something like that. Guys like Max Schmeling, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles etc. would fit in there.

Seven levels, as I said, is more or less generalising. I do agree with the fact that there may be as much as ten levels, cus if we want to go that route, we can say "Cheese Champions" who lost the title in their first defense like Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, etc. are in that category. "Average Champions" would be something like Patterson, Charles, and fit into that category. "All-Time Great Champions" of course would be the top 10 heavyweights of all time, guys like Holmes, Louis, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, etc.

So after "Title Holders", it would be "Cheese Champions", "Average Champions", and "All-Time Greats" and that makes ten levels. And really, if we want to really push the limit, maybe we ought to break down the other end of the spectrum. What really classifies someone as a complete shitcan bum, tomato can, hambone, etc? Then again that is just too much work.

[Giancarlo]

Rufus, you give Hector Mercedes as an example of a 'shitcan bum'.

You, as a pro boxer, were obviously much worse than him.

What derogatory name do we apply to guys like you?

[Brutu]

Archie Moore said that he was "Uninspired" when he fought Patterson.

That was back when the Heavyweight Champion still meant something.

Maybe it was because of a lawsuit that was issued to him just two days before
the fight by Jimmy Bivins ex-wife suing him for $ 750,000 dollars
for breach of promise and assault.

[HomicideHenry]

Rufus, you give Hector Mercedes as an example of a 'shitcan bum'.

You, as a pro boxer, were obviously much worse than him.

What derogatory name do we apply to guys like you?

Well, I cannot argue the point. But in my defense, I took the fight on two days notice, without the aid of amateur experience, against a man with 130 amateur fights who won a silver medal at the Pan Am games, and who was as Emmanuel Stewart said before he died "The next middleweight champion of the world."

Mercedes, unlike me, never did fight again. So cannot in alot of ways determine what his actual worth was overall. Me? I am, and have been, in negotiations to fight for some time now. Either in the pro gloved arena or the bare knuckle one. I think I am better than Hector Mercedes. But then again, I am biased because I am actively pursuing a career in boxing and I am looking at Mercedes in retrospect of his short lived career which ended I think in less time than my fight did.

[Giancarlo]

Rufus, you give Hector Mercedes as an example of a 'shitcan bum'.

You, as a pro boxer, were obviously much worse than him.

What derogatory name do we apply to guys like you?

Well, I cannot argue the point. But in my defense, I took the fight on two days notice, without the aid of amateur experience, against a man with 130 amateur fights who won a silver medal at the Pan Am games, and who was as Emmanuel Stewart said before he died "The next middleweight champion of the world."

Mercedes, unlike me, never did fight again...

Let me stop you right there, Rufus.

Mercedes did fight again. He even managed a win along the way. You keep talking about getting that elusive win; he actually did it.

So, I'll ask again. If Mercedes is, by your definition, a 'shitcan bum', then what derogatory label do you deserve?

[Brutu]

Absolutely no way Archie gets involved with a scam. It just was not who he was. Every loss was him turning in his best, and just having a bad day.

You don't think Organized Crime could have gotten to and affected Archie Moore in some way
even indirectly?
He was from St. Louis.

[HomicideHenry]

Let me stop you right there, Rufus.

Mercedes did fight again. He even managed a win along the way. You keep talking about getting that elusive win; he actually did it.

So, I'll ask again. If Mercedes is, by your definition, a 'shitcan bum', then what derogatory label do you deserve?

I was not aware Mercedes ever fought again. So, excuse me for my lack of knowledge on his career in total. As for definitions, I would class the both of us in the same category.... that is until I prove that I am better than that in the coming months.

[Brutu]

Archie Moore vrs Floyd Patterson for the vacant Heavyweight Championship of the World
was aired live on free tv,
NBC-TV and radio.

[Brutu]

Here is a chapter from a book with some background info on the woman who had served
Archie Moore the 3 different lawsuits,
just two days before his fight with Floyd Patterson.
She was later to become a subject of a landmark supreme court legal case.(Mapp vs Ohio).
(12 pages)


http://trutv.com/library/crime/gangster ... index.html

[Brutu]

In George Foreman's autobiography BY GEORGE(2000).
I remember reading in it were he talked about his trainer
Dick Sadler who had years earlier trained Archie Moore around early
1956 starting around the time with the Yolande Pompey fight.
In it(im paraphrasing as I havent seen the book in a few years).
Foreman was writing about fixed fights and supposed fix fights in boxing,and had said that one time
Dick Sadler told him he was working in the corner
of a fighter that was "Fighting for the heavyweight championship of the world"
and in one of the early rounds the fighter came back to his corner and spat
his mouth piece out,and Sadler was confused but then knew this fighter was taking a dive.
He didn't mention the name of the fighter,but its clear now he was probably talking about
Archie Moore.
You may want to check out the autobiography yourself,but I think
thats what Dick Sadler was pretty much talking about according to Foreman.