Il Duce's ~ "Certified '5' Greatest Heavyweight Champions"

[gilgamesh]

Well that's not fair, if you call him on his bullshiit, what is he going to post about?

He'll just make up more bullsh*t and completely ignore the fact that he's ever been called on it once. Like he has about 1000 other times.

[BoxBuzz]

Aye yi yi yi.......I don't get it....Ray gives you some pretty credible stuff....you cite information that practically assures it's further credibility based on sources....ok albeit in a bit of a convoluted manner...but still you should be able to follow these crumbs easy enough.....and you still end up at a dead end it seems.


Where is your journalistic competence?

If you are going to sit at the grown up table next Thanksgiving, you've got work to do son.

Denounce your own story, print a sensible retraction, and get yourself off the noose.

Or the only way you get to the table next year, is via the stuffing.

[Ezzard]

Jeff was one of the greats no doubt about that.

He didn’t really like boxing all that much from what I read. And he did come back for the money.

Timing is everything in boxing. Johnson got Jeff at the right time. Had Jeff fought Johnson during his title reign he may have had too much for him at that point. Jeff would then have a much higher standing.

Prime for prime I go for Johnson.

But if someone wants to rate Jeff in their top 5 or top 10 I can think of far worse opinions.

[raylawpc]

Here is what was actually published in the Anaconda Standard:

"Munroe Starts Off Strong.

"The entertainment had been so tame up to the time that Munroe entered the ring with Jeffries that the spectators felt that there was to be nothing exciting. The crowd was agreeably disappointed, however, as Munroe saved the night. When the first gong struck he opened the proceedings by pushing Jeffries' head back with a stiff right jab on the nose. The champion winced and got a left on the head. He saw he was against a foeman who meant to try to stay four rounds, and he waded in. Munroe was not to be easily found, however, and delighted the crowd by cleverly ducking vicious swings and getting away from hard leads.

"Then came a case of give and take with Munroe outpointing Jeffries all through that round and the second round. Three times did Munroe land on Jeff's jaw in the second round and in rapid succession. Jeff showed that he was not in condition and began to puff. Once in the second round Jeff showed that he was mad and sent Munroe to the floor, but not with sufficient force to make him quit.

"In the third round Jeff showed more championship form than at any time during the go. He landed on Munroe's jaw good and hard, and again the miner went to the floor.

"Twice afterwards in that round Munroe went down and wisely took the count. He was there not to whip Jeffries, but to stay four rounds, and he used his head well. Sometimes he clinched to save himself but he invariably got the worst of the clinches, as Jeff never failed to land on the body. After one of the clinches Jeff got in a right swing on the stomach and Munroe went down to stay had not the gong saved him.

"When the men came up for the fourth round the crowd was wild with excitement. From all sides came cries of "Stick to him, Jack," and Jack was sticking. He never once faltered or showed a sign of "yellow." No matter how much he was punished he was always back at the champion and he landed often. Had he not been so tired he might have hurt Jeffries, but as it was his blows lacked steam. Jeff was going it desperately and taking advice from the signs of Fitzsimmons, who was in his corner, but to no purpose. Munroe would go down from a punch, but would come back again after the count in wonderfully game fashion. At no time did he show a disposition to quit, though badly punished. When the time was called for the end of the fourth round Munroe was all in, but he was a hero, who had well won the tumultuous applause which greeted him."

Sounds similar to the Butte ringside reports. Knockdown? No, not reported.

And, BTW, the New York Times didn't have a reporter at ringside. It was a wire report. Again, nice try . . .

[BoxBuzz]

More factual...is always preferred...thanks.

[raylawpc]

Wrong

The Brooklyn Eagle filed their story from the Wire Report.

Several New York Newspapers {including the New York Times} had sent their men
out to Montana earlier in the week, to follow the James J. Jeffries 'Exhibition Tour'.

Wow. That's really interesting. The New York Times sent "its man" out to Montana earlier in the week. Then "their man" only filed a one paragraph story that was word-for-word identical to the one paragraph story in the Washington Post and other east coast newspapers? Upset of the year and he sends in one paragraph? Bet he got fired for that, huh?

Again, nice try . . .

(And what's The Brooklyn Eagle got to do with anything? I didn't mention the Eagle, and I don't think anybody else did either . . .)

[Giancarlo]

Hey Ray

How's this one,

The San Francisco Call

'Jeffries Loses To Amateur'
Burly Champion Escapes Knockout at Sutton's Broadway Theatre in Butte, Montana

'Theatrical Agent in Boston, Offers Jack Munroe A 10-Week Engagement Following His Performance With Champion Jeffries'

'Referee - Duncan 'Dune' MacDonald' - 'Jeffries Was In For A Tarter If the Bout Went Any Further, The Miner had Him Going'

When you are in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging.

[Giancarlo]

You like 'holes' don't you Giancarlo..........'Midget Freak'.....

You've given up on the lies and made up 'fight reports' for now?

Maybe stick to a subject you actually know something about in future?

Or just post some more stuff about you and Glory Hole Gary.

[BoxBuzz]

Il Duce....A pig was bought in a poke.

That describes some of the various papers accounts.


They simply took the word of a fella who had a big dog in the race regarding the report, and it's worth.


You know this....I know you do....yet you doggedly hold on to what even you know are NOT the facts. and thus not the truth.

The reports from the ringside reporters are very similar,paraphrased by the eye witnesses in ways that pass the smell test.


What's with you? seriously? This neuro deficit appears to be a repeating pattern with you.



Go back and study the Toe Steppin pic I posted, then read your responses. I really want to introduce your frontal lobe to your hippocampus. You need to get to know yourself.

[raylawpc]

Hey Ray

How's this one,

The San Francisco Call

'Jeffries Loses To Amateur'
Burly Champion Escapes Knockout at Sutton's Broadway Theatre in Butte, Montana

'Theatrical Agent in Boston, Offers Jack Munroe A 10-Week Engagement Following His Performance With Champion Jeffries'

'Referee - Duncan 'Dune' MacDonald' - 'Jeffries Was In For A Tarter If the Bout Went Any Further, The Miner had Him Going'

Hey Duce, how about NOT showing us wire reports that all the ringside reporters say were WRONG.

[BoxBuzz]

You need to put this.....

[BoxBuzz]

In touch with this.....

[BoxBuzz]

Once these two start communicating.......good things will happen!!!

[gilgamesh]

The Greatest '5' Heavyweight Champions

#1 > Jack Dempsey

#2 > Joe Louis

#3 > Larry Holmes

#4 > Rocky Marciano

#5 > James J. Jeffries

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Evander Holyfield

[Controversial]

What's your definition of "greatest heavyweight champion"?

[grevan]

The Greatest '5' Heavyweight Champions

#1 > Jack Dempsey

#2 > Joe Louis

#3 > Larry Holmes

#4 > Rocky Marciano

#5 > James J. Jeffries

Wow! No Muhammad Ali. Who'd have thought.

[grevan]

What's your definition of "greatest heavyweight champion"?

A 'Great Heavyweight Champion' not only wins, but totally dominates and devastates the competition.

A 'Take-No-Prisoners' type of 'Warrior'.

No games,,,,,,,,,,

One who had 'no' losses in his most important bouts, and when he was within the parameters of his 'prime'.

So, kinda like Eric Esch.

During the "parameters of his prime" from 1996-2000, Butterbean fought 49 times for 47 wins and 2 draws. So "no" losses. He also "devastated the competition", recording 37 KO's and definitely "took no prisoners".

I guess the King of the Four Rounders must come it at #6.

[gilgamesh]

What's your definition of "greatest heavyweight champion"?

Facing and Defeating Stiff Competition over a long period of time. The better the competition, the more impressive the victories. When it comes to competition defeated, Muhammad Ali was the first 3x Heavyweight Champion of all time in an era that had the stiffest competition any Heavyweight Champion has ever had to face and defend against...he maintained his first 2 reigns for 3 and 4 years respectively.

Along with beating several Damn solid contenders in non-title bouts.

To me he's certainly the best Heavyweight Champion of all time. With the Legendary Joe Louis right on his heels.

[Giancarlo]

What's your definition of "greatest heavyweight champion"?

A 'Great Heavyweight Champion' not only wins, but totally dominates and devastates the competition.

A 'Take-No-Prisoners' type of 'Warrior'.

No games,,,,,,,,,,

One who had 'no' losses in his most important bouts, and when he was within the parameters of his 'prime'.

So, kinda like Eric Esch.

During the "parameters of his prime" from 1996-2000, Butterbean fought 49 times for 47 wins and 2 draws. So "no" losses. He also "devastated the competition", recording 37 KO's and definitely "took no prisoners".

I guess the King of the Four Rounders must come it at #6.

#6 must be Eric or if not Eric then it can only be 'Super' Brian Nielsen, another unbeatable champ who obviously did more than that nonentity Clay!

#8 on his list is Glory Hole Gary, for sentimental reasons.

[grevan]

Butterbean

I think his 'competition' falls a wee bit short though.

Maybe a 'special division' should be started for Eric Esch.

"The Greatest Cable Television Fighter of Four-Rounders"

Well, if you're going to include level of competition as a criteria then you'd have to consider that guy who beat Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Sonny Liston and Ken Norton (and Rudi Lubbers of course).

[Controversial]

What's your definition of "greatest heavyweight champion"?

A 'Great Heavyweight Champion' not only wins, but totally dominates and devastates the competition.

A 'Take-No-Prisoners' type of 'Warrior'.

No games,,,,,,,,,,

One who had 'no' losses in his most important bouts, and when he was within the parameters of his 'prime'.

Ok fair criteria but surely Dempsey never fought any decent black fighters, so how is he number one considering he avoided the best competition?

[raylawpc]

What's your definition of "greatest heavyweight champion"?

A 'Great Heavyweight Champion' not only wins, but totally dominates and devastates the competition.

A 'Take-No-Prisoners' type of 'Warrior'.

No games,,,,,,,,,,

One who had 'no' losses in his most important bouts, and when he was within the parameters of his 'prime'.

Ok fair criteria but surely Dempsey never fought any decent black fighters, so how is he number one considering he avoided the best competition?

Aside from Harry Wills (who was avoided more by his promoter than Dempsey himself), what other black contender was the public clamoring for Jack to fight?

And Jack Johnson and Joe Louis only had one and two black challengers respectively (three for Louis is you count Walcott twice), so . . .

[drunkenpiper36]

Grevan,

You can't only credit the wins, as you must calculate the losses and 'poor' performances, and the 'game playing'.

Key Losses
* Joe Frazier I
* Kenny Norton I

Controversial Wins
* Alonzo Johnson
* Doug Jones
* Henry Cooper I
* Kenny Norton II
* Jimmy Young
* Kenny Norton III

Bizarre Bouts
* Sonny Liston I
* Sonny Liston II

Embarrassments
* Buster Mathis
* Rudi Lubbers

Unworthy Challengers
* Brian London
* George Chuvalo I
* Cleveland Williams
* Chuck Wepner
* Jean-Pierre Coopman
* Alfredo Evangelista

Handicapped Challengers
* Floyd Patterson I
* Ron Lyle
* Joe Frazier III

Upset Special
* Leon Spinks I

Non-Effort Performance
* Trevor Berbick

Scam
*Antonio Inoki

Hoax Perpetuated on the Public
* Larry Holmes

You can produce a similar list of criticisms for just about any fighter that ever lived. Difference is, most of them don't have the wins or achievements that Ali had to counter balance them.

[Controversial]

Wills was the best fighter out there and Dempsey never fought him so he never fought the best out there did he. Kid Norfolk was a dangerous fighter, no one knows if Dempsey would've beat him cos he avoided him too. Plus Dempsey was quoted as saying he wouldn't have fought Langford as he was too good, albeit Langford was way past his best at that time.

[raylawpc]

Wills was the best fighter out there and Dempsey never fought him so he never fought the best out there did he. Kid Norfolk was a dangerous fighter, no one knows if Dempsey would've beat him cos he avoided him too. Plus Dempsey was quoted as saying he wouldn't have fought Langford as he was too good, albeit Langford was way past his best at that time.

That's not what I asked. We all know he didn't fight Wills, and I maintain that was more because Tex feared race riots such as happened after Jeffries-Johnson, which he promoted and for which he felt some responsibility.

I asked what black fighters the public was clamoring for Dempsey to fight. I don't recall a clamor for Dempsey as champion to fight either Norfolk or Langford. If the public wasn't clamoring for it and no promoter offered to promote it, what was Dempsey to do?

Also, Dempsey made his comments about fighting Langford back in 1916. Do you really think Dempsey was afraid to fight Langford after 1919?

(Incidentally, Langford was quoted as saying that Dempsey would have defeated Wills, in his opinion.)