The greatest Middleweight fight?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't disagree, but he was an older and smaller Middleweight that Monzon was expected to dispose of easily and he didn't. Just another example of a great fighter putting forth a great effort. I don't consider that a negative on Carlos' record, but I was asked to provide an example and I did.

[BoxBuzz]

I'd be more inclined to put a 2 in front of that 6.

Then my suggestion is to be at less of an incline, and aspire to be straight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'll work on that as soon as you leave your outlandish bias at the door.

[BoxBuzz]

Ah...I have outlandish bias. Sounds like I'm emoting then.

However I'm not overly impressed with disinterested, mathematical calculating assessments, which shine light on mechanical potentials, while telling us little about the soul, vision, and focused ambition of the operator of the vehicle.

You run the risk of betting on Goliath over David at every opportunity.

Now before you get all flustered and personally affronted....know that I'm practicing humor here. I have been licensed to do so. So don't go attempting this on your own at home. Besides as you can tell...I need the practice.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Your humor is noted, it's as if we're talking about Monzon fighting Pascual Perez. There is no David here, just two Goliath s. Neither would be in my all time top 20, both would be close. I don't think you're biased, just a big fan. I was just following your lead. Amazing how everyone assumes I have no sense of humor, that's all this is about for me.

[BoxBuzz]

I've never doubted it.

Also you have what I consider to be educated insight, even when you drive completely off the road as in the case of Monzon. Hm...just thought about that...I guess he was driven completely off the road himself.

I'm surprised by how much you and dempseyfire can disagree on some things, and yet I feel I often come away learning something from both of you....sometimes on the same subject.

But neither of you are as old or as experienced as Jaclem.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I've never doubted it.

Also you have what I consider to be educated insight, even when you drive completely off the road as in the case of Monzon. Hm...just thought about that...I guess he was driven completely off the road himself.

I'm surprised by how much you and dempseyfire can disagree on some things, and yet I feel I often come away learning something from both of you....sometimes on the same subject.

But neither of you are as old or as experienced as Jaclem.

He doesn't post as frequently, we just have vastly different views on a few fighters that come up a lot. His disdain for Bowe is baffling.

[Dart340]

Buzz, if Monzon is a surefire upgrade over Hagler because of the Duran and SRL performances and not seeing them duplicated against Monzon, how do you process watching Monzon against Licata? I watched that mess a few months back and Monzon had way too much trouble with a feather-fisted slow mover with not so great athletics. All I could see in Licata-Hagler is a repeat of the Caveman Lee fight. Licata looked beyond dreadful and Monzon plodded around after him and didn't show much of anything until the end. Seems like you could use the same logic the other way too.

Not trolling you here, either, BB, you know more Monzon than I do and you're more well-rounded than I am by far about these things (and you have humor and patience with Duce, so that makes you a mensch in my book lol). Just wanted to hear your opinion, and I know it will be thoughtful and direct.

[BoxBuzz]

I understand, I've seen Monzon and Hagler in action with my own eyes. Both wonders to behold as fighting machines. It is simply my take, and I have no more "supervision" than the next guy.

However, Monzon for my money was:
*The fastest "thinker" I've ever seen in the ring
*The man who "most enjoyed a fight" I've ever seen
*NEVER lost his poise
*NEVER took ANY opponent for granted or for that matter held any opponent in disdain
*ALWAYS fought JUST ABOVE his opponents level
*May well have been a sociopath....just the "disease" that might give any fighter an edge. And in the hands of an excellent fighter, might well put him in another league....almost like steroids.
*Murdered someone....so ice ran in his veins. He never admitted this as I understand..he may not have even believed he did it....furthering my "sociopath" theory.
*He may have been the most accurate puncher of all time. Seemed to have an "eerie" sense of timing on his punches. Even slow bombs miraculously hit their targets.
*I think his style is well suited for mixing it up with Hagler.

I think he really did not even "pine" for KO's. He wanted to fight. And he did punish Licata even if you perceive he was "less" as a result of that performance....I think he just brought with him to any moment what he needed to extend the pain of his opponent. I think he was cruelly entertained with his own fights.

Saad brought up Griffith....and I do think this was the one fighter that Monzon had something akin to respect for. But it didn't manifest in the way Hagler's respect for Duran, or his disdain for Ray did in those cases. It may have taken him somewhat off his game....or maybe it was just Emille's greatness. But he won, and with some decisiveness.

I think it is possible if Tommy would have had the patience of a Monzon, he could have outboxed Hagler. But he did not have the poise. Monzon would have simply wanted to win. And though he did not have the firepower of Tommy, he had a good punch, better accuracy, more patience, better chin, equal height, and his accuracy and his chin more than makes up for somewhat less speed and firepower.
If anyone thinks Monzon's going to get hit more than Tommy, I might take some issue with that, but I don't think it changes the outcome.

I also understand, someone else could see this just the opposite, and make an equally good case, and I'll fight any man who gets loud and obnoxious about it.

By the way, I do think that Galindez's comments about Monzon are accurate and traceable. Though though that info was shared by a dubious source on this thread I believe.

[raylawpc]

I understand, I've seen Monzon and Hagler in action with my own eyes. Both wonders to behold as fighting machines. It is simply my take, and I have no more "supervision" than the next guy.

However, Monzon for my money was:
*The fastest "thinker" I've ever seen in the ring
*The man who "most enjoyed a fight" I've ever seen
*NEVER lost his poise
*NEVER took ANY opponent for granted or for that matter held any opponent in disdain
*ALWAYS fought JUST ABOVE his opponents level
*May well have been a sociopath....just the "disease" that might give any fighter an edge. And in the hands of an excellent fighter, might well put him in another league....almost like steroids.
*Murdered someone....so ice ran in his veins. He never admitted this as I understand..he may not have even believed he did it....furthering my "sociopath" theory.
*He may have been the most accurate puncher of all time. Seemed to have an "eerie" sense of timing on his punches. Even slow bombs miraculously hit their targets.
*I think his style is well suited for mixing it up with Hagler.

I think he really did not even "pine" for KO's. He wanted to fight. And he did punish Licata even if you perceive he was "less" as a result of that performance....I think he just brought with him to any moment what he needed to extend the pain of his opponent. I think he was cruelly entertained with his own fights.

Saad brought up Griffith....and I do think this was the one fighter that Monzon had something akin to respect for. But it didn't manifest in the way Hagler's respect for Duran, or his disdain for Ray did in those cases. It may have taken him somewhat off his game....or maybe it was just Emille's greatness. But he won, and with some decisiveness.

I think it is possible if Tommy would have had the patience of a Monzon, he could have outboxed Hagler. But he did not have the poise. Monzon would have simply wanted to win. And though he did not have the firepower of Tommy, he had a good punch, better accuracy, more patience, better chin, equal height, and his accuracy and his chin more than makes up for somewhat less speed and firepower.
If anyone thinks Monzon's going to get hit more than Tommy, I might take some issue with that, but I don't think it changes the outcome.

I also understand, someone else could see this just the opposite, and make an equally good case, and I'll fight any man who gets loud and obnoxious about it.

By the way, I do think that Galindez's comments about Monzon are accurate and traceable. Though though that info was shared by a dubious source on this thread I believe.

And excellent post, IMO. The only thing I would add is that he seldom took unnecessary chances and never fought recklessly.

[Seamus]

At there absolute best, I could see maybe an argument for Monzon having slightly faster hands, and his stamina was just as good as Hagler's. Outside of that I like Marvin in just about every other category, and the argument that Monzon was cooler under fire than Hagler, just isn't applicable, because when guys through bombs at Marvin, i,e, Mugabi, Hearns, he just through them back and then some.

[BoxBuzz]

Seamus, you are lucky.
This post of yours is neither loud, nor obnoxious.

[Dart340]

Thank you, Buzz, for the detailed and thoughtful answer. I expected no less from you.

[Roco]

I understand, I've seen Monzon and Hagler in action with my own eyes. Both wonders to behold as fighting machines. It is simply my take, and I have no more "supervision" than the next guy.

However, Monzon for my money was:
*The fastest "thinker" I've ever seen in the ring
*The man who "most enjoyed a fight" I've ever seen
*NEVER lost his poise
*NEVER took ANY opponent for granted or for that matter held any opponent in disdain
*ALWAYS fought JUST ABOVE his opponents level
*May well have been a sociopath....just the "disease" that might give any fighter an edge. And in the hands of an excellent fighter, might well put him in another league....almost like steroids.
*Murdered someone....so ice ran in his veins. He never admitted this as I understand..he may not have even believed he did it....furthering my "sociopath" theory.
*He may have been the most accurate puncher of all time. Seemed to have an "eerie" sense of timing on his punches. Even slow bombs miraculously hit their targets.
*I think his style is well suited for mixing it up with Hagler.

I think he really did not even "pine" for KO's. He wanted to fight. And he did punish Licata even if you perceive he was "less" as a result of that performance....I think he just brought with him to any moment what he needed to extend the pain of his opponent. I think he was cruelly entertained with his own fights.

Sorry Buzz can't agree here. Licata makes Monzon look very average. He stands toe to toe makes him miss often and gets the better of the many exchanges. He is able to back Monzon up and expose his defense on numerous occasions. Tony Licata was much smaller than Monzon, but was able to walk through most of what Monzon was throwing up until the end.

Yet when Monzon is struggling to beat an medicore opponent such as this we are expected to believe that he was deliberately prolonging the punishment because he was enjoying it and could have at any moment gone up a gear and finished Licata at will?

I think the Monzon's style suits Hagler as Monzon is nowhere near slick or quick enough to get a decision over Hagler.

[BoxBuzz]

That's one assessment. I see it as when Monzon got bored, or annoyed, he ended it. The end never in doubt despite his nearly disrespectful lack of defense. He didn't always go that route. I don't think he particularly was challenged in that affair. You see it different and I respect that.



........added later.....

I went back and watched it. At no time did I see Monzon not in control, he seemed fine with the incoming, and just went about systematically deconstructing a pretty durable punching bag. I simply do not see what you see. And yes, it always seems that Monzon is taking a walk in the park at a leisurely pace, even when he is delivering a pretty good shellacking to his opponent. It's just his M.O.