Tyson Fury "the bath bit me"

[HomicideHenry]

HH, you love to romanticise the traveller lifestyle don't you! Should write into channel four mate, they would give you your own show.

'Not unlike the Italian mafia' yeah, right.

I remember reading about the incident which led to him going away. Many different variations, you say someone from years ago started the trouble, another story says John Fury himself was the instigator, he was shouting and telling everyone in the immediate area that he was the best man there and would beat anyone who wanted it etc

Someone losing an eye in a fight isn't that uncommon though. Same with ears getting bit off. I have witnessed an ear getting munched off before in a fight between two fvckwits. Also seen a man attempt to take his so called friends eye out in a pub fight too!

He could have been unlucky or he could currently be serving everything he deserved. Hard to know when you are not present. Given his reputation I suspect many only hear what they want to hear when it comes to that particular incident.

I thought he seemed a negative influence around Tyson in the early days, before during and after his fights etc
Was coming out with so world class bullshit about his boy, even for a traveller!!! ( I remember something about young Tyson being able to have whupped the likes of Larry Holmes etc )

That may be the one thing I may agree (to a point with), but not for the reasons you stated. Any parent, coach, manager, trainer, etc. is going to hype their man up--- especially if its a family run organisation--- I cant help but remember the likes of Wakefield's Paul Sykes and he was being ballyhooed as the next "big thing" in heavyweight boxing and was the most likely man to bring home the title to Britain (I aint making this up, lol) and he was stopped in six rounds against Gardener for the British & Commonwealth title.

However, if one looks at the career of Tyson Fury, it can be broken up into two 'phases'. The John Fury years and the Peter Fury years. Under his father, Tyson was softer in the middle and was essentially a giant who bulled/mauled opponents and had a heck of a time with certain men (McDermott comes to mind). Then when John Fury went to prison, Tyson's uncle Peter took control of the reigns and we saw a more fitter, dedicated and more skilled Tyson--- switching from orthodox to southpaw, using more lateral movement, and a high volume jab out put.

I know when I interviewed Peter (three times) and asked when the champ (John Fury) was getting out of prison, he said sometime before the summer of 2014 and that he hoped to see John Fury take back control over Tyson's career, so Peter could focus full time on Hughie--- I don't know if it would be completely wise to do so, but then again, John Fury isn't a moron. This is a man who was arguably the best bare knuckle man in Britain, and as a pro boxer defeated the champion of Italy and was in the British & Commonwealth heavyweight mix in the 1980's and early 1990's. But, I do think Peter has a better sense when it comes to buckling down and doing things the proper way--- hard work, no bullshit, and he doesnt sugar coat things--- I remember when the first Haye/Fury conference went on and Tyson was talking himself up, being the clown, and when it was Peter's turn to talk he said "All it takes is for Tyson to make one mistake, and its all over," and Tyson quickly settled down and stopped with the act.

It isnt that John Fury knows less than Peter Fury when it comes to training, etc. but there is a mental/emotional difference between the two men, that I think was clearly evident between the two phases of Tyson's career--- then again I cant lay the blame solely on John Fury, after all Tyson was essentially a teenager like Hughie is now and its ultimately up to him to decide whether to train hard or to half ass it. Hughie, for his part, seems more dedicated and proper than Tyson ever was at that age; and it's taken the last year or two for Tyson to start coming into his own. So we will see what happens once John Fury gets out of prison and how big his role will be in training.

[hurlock]

So basically your saying peter has a better brain for boxing.

[palooka]

very funny vidoe,

I really like the fury family and best of luck to him

when Tyson does retire from the sport he will weigh 28 stone within a year

You really like the Fury family? Which bit? The eye gouging, the criminality, the violence, the prison sentences? Wow you really look for the best...

I actually really like Tyson, he is entertaining and a breath of fresh air, but not quite sure about the rest of them

You mean John Fury?

Let me tell you something, just because someone has done time, doesn't make them a bad person. Neither does self defense make you a violent person. All sources essentially state John Fury was doing nothing wrong, and some asshat from 20 years ago tries to assault him, and Fury defends himself; was it extreme that an eyeball was either knocked out of socket or gauged out? Yes. Shouldnt of gone that far, but then again--- the world of the traveller is alot like the Italian mafia, someone takes a shot at the head Don that person has to be either eliminated or made an example of in a worse way possible. I dont expect people to really understand that, but, in that world its about being the baddest, roughest, toughest, meanest, etc. to gain the respect of the entire community. And when I mean community, I mean all travellers/romany/gypsies across Europe. It's often said word passes faster through the gypsy wire (word of mouth) than by any telephone.

Besides that, dont give John Fury too hard of a time, he's from a time and age when travellers had 'death matches' and men acted as their own referees--- there was none of this taped hand, fair play, call fights off on a sneeze, bullshit like how its done today among bare knuckle enthusiasts. Guys like John Fury, Joe Joyce, Uriah Burton, Bartley Gorman, etc. fought for keeps and it was always a 'live or die' situation---- so, when the old man fights, you better believe he only knows one way of doing so, and that's fight and win at all costs. Again, I dont expect you to understand.

John Fury knew more than one way to fight - he tried with the gloves on and had some success and lost a few; he was known as a fierce bare knuckle boxer but gouging out someones eye is not anyway of going about things; he battered Scrap Iron Kelly until he shit himself and that is plain sadistic.

There are a few of Gormans fights that were against people who had no chance whatsover and more than a few when the police had been called beforehand, to turn up just as the men squared off; there's no doubt that Gorman was very solid and known as top dog AND he was more media savvy than many others who were heavy handed and didn't like to lose; Gorman was good copy a a good self publicist - I doubt though that every little thing he uttered was the absolute truth.

It is a different world and a few of the top men would be pretty decent people and would do well with gloves in a ring and when weighed in properly; most would come a real cropper though and do much more damage in a pub and there are many people capable of a fair fight who do not want the hassle of being on the wrong side of a group of travellers.

[hurlock]

I'm not a fan of this bare knuckle fighting, I don't like how the old boys are treated they have to keep fighting into there 50's!! With young lads showing no respect to men old enough to be there fathers possibly grandfathers.
HH you do over glamorise & make it fictional! The gypsy wire??? Travels faster then social media what is it called gipper?? I've just gipped (tweet)
I've seen many video messages which are hilarious for the insults as prior this would of been done by phone which would of just spilled into screaming.

As for peter fury, he comes across as nothing more then a gentlemen & has class

[palooka]

I'm not a fan of this bare knuckle fighting, I don't like how the old boys are treated they have to keep fighting into there 50's!! With young lads showing no respect to men old enough to be there fathers possibly grandfathers.
HH you do over glamorise & make it fictional! The gypsy wire??? Travels faster then social media what is it called gipper?? I've just gipped (tweet)
I've seen many video messages which are hilarious for the insults as prior this would of been done by phone which would of just spilled into screaming.

As for peter fury, he comes across as nothing more then a gentlemen & has class

Peter Fury had a pro fight and boxed a friend of mine, Peter lost and didn't fight again and the 2 met at another show and Fury was with a group of travellers, he saw my friend and told him that he'd never been hit as hard in all his life - he showed a fair bit of class and humility.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm not a fan of this bare knuckle fighting, I don't like how the old boys are treated they have to keep fighting into there 50's!! With young lads showing no respect to men old enough to be there fathers possibly grandfathers.

HH you do over glamorise & make it fictional! The gypsy wire??? Travels faster then social media what is it called gipper?? I've just gipped (tweet)

I've seen many video messages which are hilarious for the insults as prior this would of been done by phone which would of just spilled into screaming.

As for peter fury, he comes across as nothing more then a gentlemen & has class

I am pretty well involved in the Bare Knuckle Boxing scene, and keep tabs on alot of them.

I will say this much, the sport in just a few short years will no longer give any credit/creedance to the old way of doing things as the travellers/gypsies have done for the past millenium. I'll say it before, and I'll say it again--- the majority of these men are simply not athletes, they are just tough men. However, I will say traveller/gypsy stock these days are not as good as they boast to be. The fights get called off on a sneeze, someone gets scared and calls the cops, and really its nothing more than a bitch fest these days--- they rather be YouTube celebrities and have documentaries on Channel 4 claiming they are the baddest of the bad, and rather fight their third cousin than say face a real legitimite threat in the bare knuckle world like Paddy 'Jaws' Ward who had a great amateur background and fought as a professional til his license was taken away for illegal bare knuckle bouts.

The real 'bad men' seldom ever talk, seldom ever hype themselves up, etc. but the majority of the travellers/gypsies who claim to be real fighters are mostly bluffers. Take Davie Joyce for example, both matches hes had were draws--- thats when two men are either so exhausted to continue or both are so beat up they cant continue and mutually agree on stopping it--- and he's considered something of a joke on both sides of the pond. All he has really is his last name and the fact he's nearly 300 pounds. And he's always on YouTube, challenging out men like Bobby Gunn, etc.

Personally, I break up the bare knuckle world into a couple of categories:

-The True Athletes; people of good/great amateur background and/or good/great pro background who went into bare knuckle fighting--- guys like Bobby Gunn, Johnny Frankham, Roy Shaw, Bartley Gorman, Ran Nakash, Jaws Ward, Mark Potter, Richard Towers, Dave Radford, James McCrory, James Quinn McDonagh, John and Peter Fury, Cliff Fields, etc.

-The True Fighters; people who dabbled some with gloves but essentially were bare knuckle men all their lives and were 'all-in' types (anything goes); men like Uriah Burton, Mecale Merton, Willie Small, (Old) Joe Joyce, Dan Rooney, Bernie Ward, Lenny McLean, etc.--- these type of men would condition themselves for weeks, months, before fights and were capable of beating amateur's or pro's now and then, but in essence were dirty fighters with the conditioning of seasoned athletes.

-The Tough Guys; people who have a mixed record of wins and losses against various types. In the bare knuckle world, these would be your journeymen. Probably a good example (at current) would be someone like Paul Joyce whose never lost, but has had a few draws--- most notably against James Quinn McDonagh's brother. But by no means is he an athlete or a good boxer. These types rely solely on their chin resistance, size, and use every dirty trick or advantage in the book.

-The Rest; the loud mouth's, the boasters, the talkers, etc. these are the assholes who would set you up to be thrown into jail overnight, they talk a good game and stir up alot of fuss on the web and social media, etc. but they are the kind of guys who would show up with a group of men all wanting to kick your head in rather than give you a proper fight--- and when/if they ever do fight, the matches get broken up by their friends and families, excuses are made, and in their minds they never really lost even though everyone can see they cant fight for nothing. And--- you want examples, just look on YouTube and the majority of them fit right smack in this category and would get eaten up by the "Tough Guys", knocked out by the "True Fighters" in devestating fashion, and would get killed or put in a coma by "Real Athletes".

[hurlock]

I wasn't aware jonny frank ham done bare knuckle.

I've never seen any footage of McLean doing bare knuckle the unlicensed circuit saw him outweigh & physically be in much better shape as he was a body builder on roids who could throw a right hand. He was a bully he was never known to comeback from a beating or overcome a challenge I'm really not a fan of McLean however someone like cliff fields was tough as nails & could crack

[lillywhite14]

The real bad men don't fvck about squaring up to each other!

Its all a little boring to be honest. The bare knuckle scene is populated by those not good enough to make proper money and win titles in the gloved sport that exists for such an outlet.
Its not about "choice" no matter how much the bare knuckle guys insist it is. Its because they can't reach the top in boxing and so look to earn well in the bare knuckle stuff.

None of the 'true athletes' you list had anything resembling a great career, be it either pro or am. Don't see any who had even a 'good' career in the paid or unpaid ranks to be honest. ( Frankham had a good career, perhaps Gunn did considering he somehow managed to blag a couple of shots at a title )

I suspect someone like David Haye would kill any two of them names listed at the same time in any sort of punch on!

[hurlock]

What you don't understand is lillywhite is that some fighters need there camps & plenty of roadwork & to just get off your couch & stand & trade with someone where only tenacity & bad intentions gets you through it.

[HomicideHenry]

The real bad men don't fvck about squaring up to each other!

Its all a little boring to be honest. The bare knuckle scene is populated by those not good enough to make proper money and win titles in the gloved sport that exists for such an outlet.
Its not about "choice" no matter how much the bare knuckle guys insist it is. Its because they can't reach the top in boxing and so look to earn well in the bare knuckle stuff.

None of the 'true athletes' you list had anything resembling a great career, be it either pro or am. Don't see any who had even a 'good' career in the paid or unpaid ranks to be honest. ( Frankham had a good career, perhaps Gunn did considering he somehow managed to blag a couple of shots at a title )

I suspect someone like David Haye would kill any two of them names listed at the same time in any sort of punch on!

The thing is boxing is boxing, whether you wear gloves or not. Except with bare knuckle, you have to be precise in your shots, else you risk breaking your hand. A guy with a good amateur background or pro background, is going to more than likely lay waste to any of the other men in the categories I listed. How else you expect Gorman, Frankham etc. to be considered "legends" in bare knuckle communities, as they reigned for like two decades or better undefeated against the other categories I listed off. I know of one source who told me once, how Johnny Frankham came to Florida in the late 1980's and hadn't been in a pro ring in maybe ten years--- and he fought twenty men (just average run of the mill bar room brawler types) in a single day and beat them all. The point of the story, in essence, is a man with a little know how and self discipline is going to beat any average man, or even the "baddest man" in the bar room any night of the week.

As for David Haye, as your example, I don't disagree with you on it. This is a sport where those who are willing to do it, are the only ones recognised--- but no one should ever think just because Klitschko, Haye, etc. doesnt do it, doesnt mean they wouldnt flatten any of the men I listed in a single round. Of course they would. Boxing is boxing, no matter how it is dressed up. Skills are skills. HOWEVER, I may argue that someone who uses a high volume jab and throws alot of unnecessary punches in the gloved world, couldn't fight like that in the bare knuckle world, else they would break, shatter and destroy their hands pretty quickly and risk being body punched to death by someone with a little more patience than they had. All it takes is one mistake, someone being off traget, and hits someone full on blast in the forehead and their hand breaks like glass.

As of right now, the best bare knuckle men, are those amateurs/pros who are willing to do it, like Gunn, Ward, Nakash, etc. and were they the creme of the crop in the gloved world? No. But they weren't crap either. Gunn fought twice for a world title, Nakash fought for a world title, etc. That is a universe apart in talent from the majority of "The Rest" and "True Fighters" that I mentioned before. Those kind of guys could fight until they were in their 60's and probably have an undefeated streak of 30-0 (30) against bar room types or better. Does it mean they are great fighters? Not necessarily, but it does mean they are the best men willing to do bare knuckle at this point and time.

I wasn't aware jonny frank ham done bare knuckle.

I've never seen any footage of McLean doing bare knuckle the unlicensed circuit saw him outweigh & physically be in much better shape as he was a body builder on roids who could throw a right hand. He was a bully he was never known to comeback from a beating or overcome a challenge I'm really not a fan of McLean however someone like cliff fields was tough as nails & could crack

Frankham and his brother Bobby done alot of bare knuckle fights. However, they focused more on their gloved careers than bare knuckle, and for the most part were more quiet than others in the bare knuckle circuit like Gorman, Burton, etc. who knew how to be great salesmen and promoters.

As for McLean, he carved out his reputation on the unlicensed gloved circuit but was considered the "hardest man in Britain" with or without gloves for a long time. According to Lenny (and I think for most part he was full of bull piss) he never lost "on the cobbles" and claimed he had over 1,000 street brawls, etc. If even half of it were true, then he would still of been a fearsome bare knuckle man. However, he had no real resistance to punches and had horrible defense--- he was kayoed in one round by Shaw, Kevin Paddock, Cliff Fields, Johnny Waldron, etc.

And, if one were to ask about Lenny to allegedly (Lenny's cousin) he will tell you Lenny fought alot of rigged/fixed contests in the unlicensed gloved circuit--- so at the end of the day, really, all Lenny could really claim to be was the "toughest bouncer" in all of Britain. Which that doesnt prove much, but elaborate my point earlier in this post that a man with a little know how will beat the biggest, strongest, toughest, roughest, dirtiest street fighter walking.

[palooka]

HomicideHenry;

Saying that you're 'The Hardest Man in Britain' doesn't mean that you are. Putting it on the cover of a book means it will probably sell more copies

A lot of those big name bare knuckle fighters were a couple of stone heavier and half a foot taller than the men they fought. Gorman was around 6 foot 4 and 17 and a half stones; Bob Gaskin around 5 foot 9 and 13 stones.

I know we have had a little back and forth about The Saint Leger Day Massacre; do you believe Gormans story that an iron bar was rammed down his throat and broke his voice box?

Though some of the 'champions' 'held' their titles for years and years they didn't have many great challenges; a lot of the 'respect' they hold is because they are head men in a family mob that are willing to do all sorts if you're on the wrong side of them.

On another view - do you know a lot about Henry Francis? I knew his younger brother, Michael.

[HomicideHenry]

HomicideHenry;

Saying that you're 'The Hardest Man in Britain' doesn't mean that you are. Putting it on the cover of a book means it will probably sell more copies

A lot of those big name bare knuckle fighters were a couple of stone heavier and half a foot taller than the men they fought. Gorman was around 6 foot 4 and 17 and a half stones; Bob Gaskin around 5 foot 9 and 13 stones.

I know we have had a little back and forth about The Saint Leger Day Massacre; do you believe Gormans story that an iron bar was rammed down his throat and broke his voice box?

Though some of the 'champions' 'held' their titles for years and years they didn't have many great challenges; a lot of the 'respect' they hold is because they are head men in a family mob that are willing to do all sorts if you're on the wrong side of them.

On another view - do you know a lot about Henry Francis? I knew his younger brother, Michael.

Correction... Gorman was 6'0" and roughly 215-220 pounds; there's an excellent picture of both Gorman and John Fury together, and Fury was a legitimite 6'4" and you can see he was clearly taller than Gorman; however, I do get the general jist of what you're saying. Alot of these matches were determined more by size than skills--- take Dan Rooney vs. Ernie McGinley for example. But I think its easy to see, even skill wise, Rooney was better boxer than McGinley.

And trust me, I do agree the title of "Hardest Man in Britain" is mostly bullshine to sell books and promote ones self as being something they aren't. It's a mythical crown. But then again, the gloved world has its own mythical crown of "greatest pound for pound". Neither title, to one degree or another, will ever be substantiated or conclusively proven. Most people when they think "Hardest Man in Britain" think of someone whose a rough neck type of guy anyways; like Charles Bronson, Roy Shaw or Paul Sykes who spent time in the prison system--- more so than them being the best boxer on the streets or ring.

And I also agree, its what I was elaborating on this whole time @ "didn't have that many great challenges". Which is why I kept going on and on about different classes of fighters in BKB. The real good ones come few and far between--- the great amateurs, good pros, etc. who also did BKB on the side. And as stated before, any man with a little know how and experience in the gloved ring, actually learned the trade, and honed their craft will beat any of those others who fancy themselves as big, bad men.

Do I believe the Gorman story of what happened at the Doncaster Races? I have talked to alot of the Fury and Gorman family, and they say it happened as is. While there is of course personal bias, because it is family--- Peter Fury doesn't come off to me as a bullshitter, or that he would make up things. I've interviewed the man a couple of times on radio, and have had alot of personal conversations with him and he don't try to sell me anything, or put the wool over my eyes. Like, one time I asked him: "Well Bartley did alot of amateur fights and almost turned pro, do you think he would of been a good fighter in the gloved world?" and Peter more or less said that the gloved world wouldn't of suited or fit Bartley, because Bartley's style was to get nose to nose and batter it out. Bartley was an "all-in" kind of man, and gloves/rules wouldn't of benefited him. I think in Gorman's book you will see Bartley sort of admit to this, as he said in street fights he never felt butterflies and nervousness, but when gloves were on and inside a ring and had to listen to what a referee said, etc. he was uneasy about it. Still--- that experience he had as an amateur and working in gyms with good amateurs and pro's gave him that edge over the majority of men who came to challenge him.

I'm still searching the newspaper archives, and been asking favors from various people who knew Gorman to try and get me a newspaper clipping of the incident, or even family pictures of around that time of Gorman's attack. But, you ask do I believe it, and the answer would have to be (for the most part) yes I do. People do tend to exaggerate their own courage and strength in the mix of adversity, but yes I do believe Gorman almost bought the farm that day.

As for Henry Francis--- not as much as I would like to. I have talked to people who are related to him, or live in the area where he lives; but apparently Henry is a very private man, or well gaurded man, because I was denied interviews with him or any type of correspondence. From what I hear, though I dont know how true it is, that Henry owns and operates some sort of gym or facility where he trains young men to fight bare knuckle. But I have heard some good things about him, and that he was a great bare knuckle man in his own right. Other than that, all I got to go on is what Gorman wrote of Francis in his book.

[gp.]

What about the Staffordshire Wolfman, Henry? Last time you started banging on about this you listed him as one of Gorman's toughest opponents. Now, he seems to be nowhere.

[stevieb_8006]

ahhhh the monthly bareknuckle/traveller thread

I can smell the testosterone from here

[palooka]

ahhhh the monthly bareknuckle/traveller thread

I can smell the testosterone from here

It's nearly my monthly bath time, a week to go.

[lefty]

ahhhh the monthly bareknuckle/traveller thread

I can smell the testosterone from here

It's nearly my monthly bath time, a week to go.

You flash bastard

[palooka]

ahhhh the monthly bareknuckle/traveller thread

I can smell the testosterone from here

It's nearly my monthly bath time, a week to go.

You flash bastard

It's been raining in Kent so you're ok

[HomicideHenry]

RE: 'Gypsy' John Fury

To put both his boxing and bareknuckle/streetfighting 'ability' into context, I once saw MIDDLEWEIGHT Frank Grant batter him in sparring, 'Gypsy' most chagrined at this humiliation started making various threats when the sparring was over, Grant offered to 'take him outside' but 'Gypsy' jumped in his van and fled the scene with some haste.

He also retired himself in a fight against the relatively light hitting Steve Garber.

Against pudgy, untrained, middle aged 'hardmen' he was a formidable proposition, against 'real' fighters he was nothing.

Didn't score a single stoppage as a pro boxer either, so he clearly can't punch, hence the use of thumbs in eye sockets.

I'll be honest, I do believe the context essentially. Most people I've talked to about John Fury's pro boxing career will say he was an 'average' heavyweight at best. He was big, strong, tough; but his size he gave away to smaller men by not fighting tall, his strength didn't translate into punching power, etc. I'm still trying to actually find tapes of his matches, so can get a real view of him, but I get the opinion that he simply started real late in boxing, and relied on mauling tactics to get wins over opponents. I'd love to see video of him against Henry Akinwande in the British & Commonwealth tournament (which ultimately Lennox Lewis won).

What about the Staffordshire Wolfman, Henry? Last time you started banging on about this you listed him as one of Gorman's toughest opponents. Now, he seems to be nowhere.

I don't think I listed the man as one of Gorman's toughest; I simply mentioned the man a time or two, and basically wrote down what Gorman wrote of the man--- which was he attacked Gorman out of nowhere and attempted to bite Gorman's nose off. I'll make some enquiries into the man with the Fury family, and see if they will give a name up. All I know is what was in the book, that the man's real name was John, and lived in the Staffordshire area and was a hunter.

[mickey1975]

RE: 'Gypsy' John Fury

To put both his boxing and bareknuckle/streetfighting 'ability' into context, I once saw MIDDLEWEIGHT Frank Grant batter him in sparring, 'Gypsy' most chagrined at this humiliation started making various threats when the sparring was over, Grant offered to 'take him outside' but 'Gypsy' jumped in his van and fled the scene with some haste.

He also retired himself in a fight against the relatively light hitting Steve Garber.

Against pudgy, untrained, middle aged 'hardmen' he was a formidable proposition, against 'real' fighters he was nothing.

Didn't score a single stoppage as a pro boxer either, so he clearly can't punch, hence the use of thumbs in eye sockets.

I take it you're from Bradford?

[joyce52]

The real 'bad men' seldom ever talk, seldom ever hype themselves up, etc. but the majority of the travellers/gypsies who claim to be real fighters are mostly bluffers. Take Davie Joyce for example, both matches hes had were draws--- thats when two men are either so exhausted to continue or both are so beat up they cant continue and mutually agree on stopping it--- and he's considered something of a joke on both sides of the pond. All he has really is his last name and the fact he's nearly 300 pounds. And he's always on YouTube, challenging out men like Bobby Gunn, etc.

All this bare knuckle stuff is a joke and its an even bigger joke to write about it as if its a real sport, but then you go and pick out somebody thats actually gone the distance with Cammarelle.

[gp.]

I don't think I listed the man as one of Gorman's toughest; I simply mentioned the man a time or two, and basically wrote down what Gorman wrote of the man--- which was he attacked Gorman out of nowhere and attempted to bite Gorman's nose off. I'll make some enquiries into the man with the Fury family, and see if they will give a name up. All I know is what was in the book, that the man's real name was John, and lived in the Staffordshire area and was a hunter.

Please don't on my account.

We all know you're merely repeating what you've read in Gorman's book, I just wonder why you bother. You can't back up Gorman's stories by repeating stuff he said himself.