Counter-puncher wrote:apparently, it means an awful lot more than it should. just, please, stick to talking about him on the level of his record. make of it what you will. just for god's sake don't talk about his punching mechanics like you know what you're watching.
Sometime in the near future I will have to create a thread, going in full detail w/ pictures and film, promoting the merits of earlier styles/stances which generated punching power to a greater degree than stances/styles today. As I mentioned before, the three-knuckle system of boxing was superior to the current two-knuckle system because A) more surface area, and B) it followed the 'power line' of the human anatomy more naturally than the two-knuckle frame line.
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Now the KO% comes out, the last resort of the truly desperate. I guess hector Camacho punched harder than Ike Williams.
So, without further delay, I will judge Vitali on the "level of his record".
Amateur Boxing- 195-15 (80)
Kick Boxing- 4x Amateur Champion, 2x Professional, 34-1 (22)*
Professional Boxing- 45-2-0 (41) , 2x WBC champion
*Was only stopped once as a kick-boxer by the legendary Pele Reid and this was in the amateurs. He never lost by kayo in the professional kick boxing ranks. It must be noted that in an issue of UFC magazine, Vitli Klitschko was voted the most likely boxer to have success in mma.
He fought and defeated, in essence, five champions in his career. While not near the depth of quality opposition as his younger brother's resume, one may argue that he (Vitali) fought the physically tougher competition. Men who were not so easy to put away in the ring. The five champions were:
-Shannon Briggs
-Tomasz Adamek
-Herbie Hide
-Juan Carlos Gomez
-Samuel Peter
And, he also fought some rather tough contenders, like Chris Arreola, Timo Hoffman, Vaughn Bean, and Larry Donald. While not the sort of list to inspire a would be sportswriter's imagination, it is a solid and respectable list of men who had attributes alot of people don't necessarily hold to high regard, but should when concerning the "big picture".
Of Vitali's two losses as a pro, both were on freak technical knockouts. The first, being against Chris Byrd when Vitali (well ahead on all cards) severely injured his shoulder. The second, being one of the most famous fights in recent years, was against Lennox Lewis where Klitschko was ahead on all score cards and suffered a nasty cut of grotesque proportions. These fights are either over-done or under-sold, depending on which side of the argument you are on; but the fact being that Vitali was ahead in both fights, and the fact that Lewis retired rather than face Klitschko in a $40 million dollar super-fight which would of shattered the previous record of Tyson-Lewis speaks volumes, at least in my mind's eye as to whether Lewis felt he could of won in a return bout.
However, let's look at the qualifications of the men listed in this thus far, and see their general worth. For the most part, the majority of these men were either never stopped prior to meeting Klitschko, or had lost by kayo or technical kayo once in their relative primes or early on in their careers; kayo losses that would follow were near the end of their careers. In layman's terms, these were guys you were going to have to pack a lunch with, in order to fight, because it was going to be a long night. These were men with great abilities to absorb punishment, or were highly skilled men who seldom ever got caught with punches.
Shannon Briggs, for example, was only stopped twice in his career. Once was to a prime/peak Lennox Lewis, and the other happened early in his career. When he fought Vitali, it was considered the most one-sided and brutal encounters in recent years and should of been stopped several rounds before. The referee for the contest, if memory serves me right, was punished for allowing the contest to go a full twelve rounds.
Chris Arreola, has only been stopped twice in his career. One to Vitali, the other to Stiverne. Herbie Hide, of his four kayo losses, two were well passed his prime; the other two were against Riddick Bowe and Vitali Klitschko. Juan Carlos Gomez, was only stopped twice in his career, one was to Vitali and the other before he was the unified Cruiserweight champion. Samuel Peter, only lost by kayo twice, one was to Vitali and the other against Robert Helenius. Tomasz Adamek, who had beaten the likes of giants like Golota, McBride, Grant, and been a LHW and CW champion, only lost by kayo once and that was against Vitali. Corrie Sanders, who sparked out Vitali's brother in two rounds, may very well of been the most under-rated heavyweight of the passed thirty years and was only stopped twice prior to Vitali. One was early on in his career, the other to Hasim Rahman.
Outside of Briggs, who was the only men to go the full route with Vitali? Hoffman and Johnson. Sure, they weren't overly good heavyweights, but Vitali is in good company. Nobody has ever kayoed Kevin Johnson, which is remarkable considering Johnson is one of the smaller career heavyweights in the division and has the lowest-punch rate in the division. Hoffman, was only stopped in 2007 and 2013; which isn't altogether surprising considering he turned pro in 1993. Old age, was the only reason he finally got caught after all these years.
How about others that he fought? Kirk Johnson was only stopped once in his career. Yep, it was from Klitschko. Larry Donald? Klitschko was the only one to do the feat; not Holyfield, Povetkin, Valuev, Witherspoon, or Riddick Bowe. Vaughn Bean? Again, only Klitschko managed it; not Moorer, Holyfield, Diaz, Thompson, or Dimintrenko. How about the ol' Ironhead himself Ross Puritty? He only lost by kayo twice, the first in his second pro fight, the other by Vitali; not Morrison, Rahman, Grant, Sanders.
I think when one really looks at the overall career of Vitali Klitschko, one can sufficiently say that Vitali had tremendous punching power. When you compare his record to others of power and might, one can make a good argument that Vitali accomplished more, and against better competition. How so? Let's take a gander at Earnie Shavers career record. Now, I know "The Acorn" is held in high regard on this forum, after all he almost kayoed a Parkinson's victim named Muhammad Ali and floored Larry Holmes, in what may of been the only crowning glory moment he had between two, one-sided contests with the Easton Assassin, but before people go crazy really look at the record.
Shavers, for being the alleged "Puncher of The Century" couldn't do a thing with Ron Stander. Stander is best known for being a complete unknown, who got a title shot against Joe Frazier and was stopped in four rounds. In fact, Shavers lost by kayo against Stander, who was at best a journeyman boxer whose full-time job was being owning and operating a butchershop. Shavers also couldn't do a thing with the likes of Boone Kirkman, who had lost on kayo to the likes of George Foreman and others hard punchers in the era.
Sure, supporters will point out that these losses came early on, but when you look at Shavers record the majority of his wins were against opponents with subpar records. This lack of topflight competition certainly showed whenever he took a step up, as he was blasted away in one round to Jerry Quarry, stopped in six against Ron Lyle, and would of course in subsequent years lose on kayo to the likes of Bernardo Mercado and Tex Cobb in seven and eight rounds respectively.
His best kayo wins, were against the shell that was once named Ken Norton in 1979 (KO1) and against Jimmy Ellis (KO1), and against the ancient Joe Bugner (KO2) in 1982. Some critics will also point out that Jimmy Young was also a victim, but considering Young was 7-3-0 as a professional at the time, and Shavers was a phenomenal 42-2-0, its safe to say at the time Young was just one of many who were following the script of being fed to the newest monster in the division.
Hey, I love Earnie too, he came from my home state and I interviewed the man twice, but who did he really beat that was in their prime, or was reknowned for their toughness? Nobody. There isn't a single name on the resume that warrants such speculations. The fact is, those who were tough enough to take the power of the Black Destroyer, were able to knock him out COLD. Not technical kayos, but actual knockouts. The same cannot be said of Vitali Klitschko, who was a proven knockout artist who kayoed men who seldom ever got hurt in the ring.
Of Earnie's overall 76.4% career kayo ratio the majority was against complete tomato cans and journeymen. There is no way around this fact. 23 first round knockouts; 50 kayos within three rounds or less. It all sounds incredible; but even LaMar Clark had 45 consecutive kayos against virtually the same caliber of opposition. Don't get me wrong, the man could hit, but was he really as great a puncher as many believe him to be? I don't think so. He's still top ten worthy, yes, but he never fought men who were known tough guys and beat them decisively like Vitali done.
Interesting side note, I must add, since I did interview Earnie twice, is that he stated on both occasions that he believed whole heartedly he could have kayoed both Klitschko's inside of two rounds. I made it a point to the listeners that Shavers had been kayoed by relatively less than high caliber opposition during his career, and never had Shavers ever fought men anywhere near the size and weight of the Klitschko's either. Considering Vitali never been stopped, let alone floored in his career, I highly doubt Shavers could of done so.
