Stevenson-Fonfara II

[ikorolev]

I am not sure that Adonis is so much better than Pascal. I am also not sure if he or Kovalev will survive if Beterbiev manages to land a good punch.

[jewboypgh]

Is fonfara the giraffe looking white kid with the long neck? If this fight happens call 911.
A crime has been committed!

[Lackeos]

I don't believe in Stevenson's claim to begin with. His linearity comes from Roy Jones Jr, who was argurably never the linear champ anyways.

I just want to point out that Stevenson's line doesn't go back to RJJ. RJJ's line went through Tarver, Johnson, Tarver, Hopkins, Calzaghe, and then it ended. Stevenson's line started with a reboot at Dawson, then went to Pascal, Hopkins, Dawson, Stevenson.

However, it is considered that RJJ never was the lineal champion, and that the lineal title went through fighters like Virgil Hill, Dariusz Michalczewski, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Zsolt Erdei, etc.. By my interpretation, if Zsolt's reign was never considered vacated in his absence, then Zsolt's lineage continues being handed off to Denis Grachev, then Edwin Rodriguez, who never technically lost it since it was not on the line for the fight with Ward, which was scheduled at SMW. So, IMO, the lineal title is in the gutter somewhere, around Edwin Rodriguez's waist.

Either way, the lineal title is meaningless. If Stevenson is too scared to fight Kovalev, and is instead rematching Fonfara, then none of his titles possess any value.

[crusader]

How does one determine the competitors for the vacant lineal championship given that it's just a notional championship?

[davie]

How does one determine the competitors for the vacant lineal championship given that it's just a notional championship?

Certain members of Boxrec, get together in a secret location and pick names out of a hat presumably

[Badhusker]

Waste of time. Hope Fonfara beats his ass this time. Stevenson took him too lightly the first time. We will see if he (Stevenson) is for real if they fight again.

[zorndeslammes]

Unlike actual title belts which change hands after fights (or otherwise), linear titles can be awarded, recognized, or ignored essentially at will. I don't care if Adonis Stevenson is claimed as the "linear" champion. I don't buy his claim to being the real champ and, ergo, top light heavyweight in the world. Anyone who does is an idiot, IMO.

[zorndeslammes]

The WBC champion is the WBC champion. I don't have to respect his claim to being the top fighter in his division, but objectively, the guy the sanctioning body has holding the belt is the guy who is champ for them. Linear titles are completely imaginary. The vacancy at light heavyweight was purely because of Erdei's "retirement" to get out of his promotional contract. He took less time off than Andre Ward currently has, and Ward doesn't have a fight scheduled yet. Ricky Hatton is a similar case historically for recent precedent for a guy for a "linear champ" who left his division for an extended period and came back to reclaim his "linear crown". There are no objective rules to linearity or awarding thereof, ergo I put little stock in it.

[GilFilmore]

Fonfara looked like shit his last fight. I suppose Stevenson would KO him in the rematch

[Badhusker]

I agree with what Lackeos said, that the lineal title is meaningless now. To me it should be the guy that is the best in the division, but that isn't always the case.

[crusader]

To me titles don't make someone's resume more impressive than it would be if they had the same results against the same opponents without a title on the line.

[ikorolev]

I agree with what Lackeos said, that the lineal title is meaningless now.

Exactly. Lineal titles would be meaningful if their owners would fight the best available opposition. This is obviously very far from truth. One of recent illustrations of that is Sergio Martinez losing his title to a guy from a lower weight class with 1-2 record in his previous three fights (and the only win was against a B level opposition). LOL at people seriously considering Cotto to be a lineal champ.

[Perseus]

Lineal doesn't mean "best" and never has it's just the line of "the man who beat the man" if such a lineage exists in a given division.

I doubt anybody would consider Cotto the best middleweight but only an idiot would dispute his lineal claim.

That lineage starts at Bernard Hopkins.
If somebody wants to dispute Hopkins' lineal claim please, oh please tell us your reasoning.

Hopkins------>Taylor------->Pavlik----->Martinez------->Cotto
There is a clear line from Hopkins to Cotto.
If Cotto is not the lineal champ then Hopkins never was either.

[ikorolev]

"Lineal" meant to be the best. Original lineal champions were undisputed ones, but when lineal champs fight whoever they want instead of best available opposition, it makes the lineal title worthless in cases like Cotto.

[Perseus]

"Lineal" meant to be the best. Original lineal champions were undisputed ones, but when lineal champs fight whoever they want instead of best available opposition, it makes the lineal title worthless in cases like Cotto.

Lineal never meant the best.
Of course original lineal champs were undisputed or consensus champs, new sport and later new weight classes had to establish an actual champion before lineage ever begins. Going forward it just passes to whomever happens to beat the lineal champ.
It doesn't matter if that guy was deserving of the opportunity or recognized by anybody as "the best" it's just a line from one guy to the next until vacated for whatever reason.
Middleweight lineage hasn't been vacated yet. At the current time it follows an unbroken path from Hopkins to Cotto and only from Hopkins to Cotto.
Just because any current lineal champ isn't fighting "the best" in his next fight doesn't mean he won't fight the best afterwards.
You are aware of the fact that they are allowed to make money for what they do?
I only ask because you act like you are not aware of that fact.

[zorndeslammes]

Ricky Hatton is a similar case historically for recent precedent for a guy for a "linear champ" who left his division for an extended period and came back to reclaim his "linear crown".

According to Cyber Boxing Zone, Ricky Hatton only had one stint as the lineal light welterweight champ between 2005 & 2009.

Exactly my point. Now tell me how many times he defended his 140lb title between December 2005 and December 2006.

[zorndeslammes]

Original lineal champions were undisputed ones

Bingo. Now someone tell me how a WBC title bout between Jean Pascal and Chad Dawson was for the undisputed, unquestioned title.

[ikorolev]

Just because any current lineal champ isn't fighting "the best" in his next fight doesn't mean he won't fight the best afterwards.
You are aware of the fact that they are allowed to make money for what they do?
I only ask because you act like you are not aware of that fact.

They could be making money while fighting the best. In old times, champions were doing that. Fighting random guys devalues a lineal title. If Martinez fought Golovkin in any of his 6 previous fights, we would have a real champion. Cotto as a lineal MW champ is a joke. He can't even be a real LMW champ, because there are better fighters there.

[zorndeslammes]

Martinez is another example. He went 14 months between fights before facing Cotto. Should he have held linearity through that long period? How long is too long before you stop being the "real champ"? 12 months? 3 years? If Joe Calzaghe got in shape today and fought at super middleweight, why isn't he the linear 168 lb champion instead of Andre Ward?

There's no bylaws for linear titles. No rules. No mandatory challengers. It is 100% made up and imaginary with non-existent rules that can flex and bend in whatever way people want them to in order to get the results they desire.

[zorndeslammes]

There were a lot of words there. So Hatton didn't defend his title for 13 months. What did he do instead?

[TheBeast]

Maybe a disapointing rematch for hardcores who expect more from fighters at the top of their weightclass.

But in the end, it will generate lots of money in canada where the first fight was tagged as one of the best fights to happened in canada in years... I think it was a pretty good fight and don't mind seeing it again although there are MUCH better fights to be made at the weight.

[zorndeslammes]

There were a lot of words there. So Hatton didn't defend his title for 13 months. What did he do instead?

He had a one-off world championship welterweight fight against Luis Collazo,

There you go. And he said after the fight that it was his first fight at the new weight and he planned to grow into it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing ... id=2444396

He didn't, of course, and was given his other belts back. Point being - why wasn't he stripped? Oh, because there aren't any rules and people do whatever they want with linear titles. That doesn't take endless tangents and strawmen to say, Rover.

[Perseus]

Original lineal champions were undisputed ones

Bingo. Now someone tell me how a WBC title bout between Jean Pascal and Chad Dawson was for the undisputed, unquestioned title.

Nobody said undisputed.
Anybody with an IQ greater than moron understands that linear and undisputed are not the same thing.
Having collected all the major alphabet belts of the time Mike Tyson was considered "undisputed" heavyweight champion when the linear champion was Michael Spinks.
Tyson was the belt collector, Spinks "the man who beat the man"
Obviously, the two met in the ring and linear status was passed to Tyson about 90 seconds later.

With four sanctioning bodies on equal footing these days "undisputed" is probably more mythical than "linear". Even the super rich boxers don't really want to pay sanctioning fees to all four organizations.

Dawson and Pascal were the consensus if not universally recognized #1 and #2 light heavyweights at that time. One of them was paying rent on a sanctioning body belt which happened to be the WBC.

If the linear title of the division was vacant is a fight between the consensus #1 and 2 not good enough to establish new lineage for you?

[zorndeslammes]

13 months is not an unreasonable timescale between title defences.

What's unreasonable? Give me a number.

[zorndeslammes]

Ring Magazine believes 18 months.

Stop being lazy and do some research!

I didn't ask you what Ring Magazine believed. I asked what you believed. Seeing as your version of a linear champ is determined by which of the three opinions on who is linear champ you prefer, I'm demanding your opinion on the abstract construct you're defending.