Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[yancey]

I feel a motivated 1974 Ali - knowing the challenge in front of him (i.e not underestimating a Norton) would beat Holmes by close decision.

I feel a 1966 - 1967 Ali would win over Holmes 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. Ali was Supernatural in this period. He would have beaten Frazier then too in my opinion.

evren

It would have been unfair on Frazier to pit him against Ali in 1966/67, as he wasn't quite ready then.

Frazier was in his pomp in 1969 & Ali in 1966/67; that would have been a better barometer.

Frazier's style would always have been a nightmare for Ali.

Although I'd lean towards Ali, he would have had to have gone through hell to beat a prime Frazier.

I sincerely think '66-'67 Ali has an extremely hard time hearing the final bell against '69 Frazier.

He was not as mature and strong (mentally and physically) as he was in '71 and after. The Ali camp eventually came around to realizing that difference between pre and post layoff Ali.

[evrenb]

...or the bonavena that frazier couldnt put a dent in over 25 rounds while.Ali knocked him out at a terrible point of Ali's career....

[BoxBuzz]

Yancey, if only you knew more about the art of rehab, you would not say that with such certainty. Williams was not washed up. Might want to take a look at his record post his lead poisoning. Think you or I could have accomplished that?

[yancey]

Yancey, if only you knew more about the art of rehab, you would not say that with such certainty. Williams was not washed up. Might want to take a look at his record post his lead poisoning. Think you or I could have accomplished that?

Big Cat's recovery from the shooting was indeed commendable, but...

He was not anywhere near the athlete he once was by the time he met up with Ali. I believe he was a shell of a fighter that Ali could shadow box and shuffle with and look absolutely awesome while doing it.

It also didn't help that Williams got his purse attached right before the fight. Imagine you and your wife's dreams of buying a house getting shattered right before going out to face Ali. His heart was not even in it, not that it would have even remotely mattered.

[cocka09]

1960's Ali takes this one had a canter, in my opinion. No doubt Holmes would nic a few rounds throughout the bout but Ali's evasive footwork and lightening speed would prove too much for Larry. Ali between 65-67 would have been almost impossible to beat. Such a shame the ban came when it did

[elmersalsa]

If the great Muhammad Ali of the 60s uses his superior speed, it could give the great Larry Holmes lots of problems. It would be a battle of jabs, because the two had the greatest jabs in heavyweight history. Ali by a close decision, I believe. Or it could go Holmes way.

[Ambling Alp II]

How about Sonny Liston prior to this then...? And in regards to Cleve Williams...watch his fight prior to the Ali match...against Herring...watch the live broadcast and tell me he was washed up!! Ernie Terrell??

If you don't realize that 11/66 Cleve Williams was a washed up fighter, then you are utterly and completely beyond help.

And do you really think that Ernie Terrell was some kind of big time threat to Ali? He and the way past it Folley were exactly the kind of plodders that Ali could look great against.

But hey, Ali did go up against the extremely dangerous Brian London. I'll give him that.

Prime Frazier takes less than 20 rounds to dispose of all 5 guys that Ali fought in '66.


p.s. I'm sure Alp will be along to rationalize that there was a vast difference between the 3/66 Chuvalo that Ali struggled 15 rounds with and the 7/67 version that Frazier made turn away in 9 minutes and 16 seconds.

I just came along to rationalize the vast difference between the Chuvalo that fought Ali and the Chuvalo that fought Frazier. (Which I have done before in a previous thread).
Chuvalo often had took a lot of punishment in his fights and the Ali one in particular. He also fought a lot. He had 14 fights in between the Ali and Frazier fights.
He had a total of 62 fights going in to the Frazier fight. So no, he wasn't exactly in his prime vs Frazier.
Or else we can just go with the he just "wasn't motivated anymore" excuse for Chuvalo that gets used for Frazier's defeats.

Making fun of Brian London? He was the worst fighter that Ali fought in his first title reign. However, he was better than the greats Frazier was fighting like Dave Zyglewicz, Mando Ramos,Ron Stander, and Terry Daniels.

First time I have ever heard Folley referred to as a "plodder". He was the #1 contender going into the Ali fight. As for Terrell, next to Ali, he was the best heavyweight in the world going into their fight.

Frazier in his prime beats them all within 20 rounds? This is based on what? The big wins over Zyglewicz, Ramos,Stander and Daniels? Well, he couldn't stop Bonavena, and Mathis gave him trouble as well. However many rounds it would have taken Frazier, he would have lost more rounds than Ali did.

[BoxBuzz]

I've take a close look at this. Reviewed the available info, and considered it carefully.

As it turns out, Alp is right.

[wvboxer]

Holmes is a tough fight for Ali at any stage. I think he's a tough fight for anyone for that matter. Ali of the 60's would win I think because of his speed & movement. I think Ali of the early 70's could squeak by Holmes too. There's the possibility that he would squeak by. I'd definitely make Holmes the favorite.

The only guy I can think of that was tall & jabbed at Holmes was Carl Williams. Larry had his hands full there but I think he'd trouble Ali a lot too!

[ClivePatrickLyons]

FANCY ANYONE CLAIMING THAT THE GREATEST WAS THAT F..... UP IN THE 70'S[ESPECIALLY EARLY 70'S] THE SAME POOR OLD CRIPPLE THAT BEAT FRAZIER/FOREMAN/NORTON/BONAVENA/SHAVERS/LYLE ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ,WOULD'NT BEAT HOLMES DON'T GET ME WRONG HOLMES WAS A LEGEND I RECENTLY WATCHED DOCO ABOUT THEIR FIGHT IN 1980 THE PEOPLE WHO ALLOWED ALI TO FIGHT SHOULD TO THIS DAY BE STILL ASKING FOR PAROLE, ALI WAS CLEARY A UNWELL MAN HOLMES WAS ORDED BY HIS CORNER A FEW TIME'S DURING THE FIGHT TO KNOCK HIM OUT [TO END IT] HE TRIED AND TRIED BUT COULD'NT PUT A MAN SUFFERING FROM PARKINSON SYNDROME EVEN DOWN FOR A COUNT THAT'S HOW GREAT THIS MAN WAS [ALI] [ I WON'T EVEN GO INTO THE NUEROLIGIST TEST BEFORE THE FIGHT OR WHAT SOME CLOWN OF A DOCTOR INJECTED HIM WITH TO HELP A THYROID CONDITION THAT HE DID'NT EVEN HAVE ] THIS IS SOMETHING THAT STICK'S IN MY MIND NO OTHER HEAVYWEIGHT IN HISTORY WOULD HAVE LASTED 10 ROUND'S WITH HOLMES IF THEY HAD PARKINSON [ AND DON'T NO F...WIT SAY THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE HAD PARKINSON ] JUST WATCH THE DOCO , FOR APPROX 3 YEAR'S IN THE LATE 60'S ALI WAS BANNED FROM BOXING THESE WERE HIS PEAK YEAR'S TAKIN AWAY NO-ONE WOULD EVER BEAT HIM DURING THIS TIME HOLMES INCLUDED ALI WINS FROM 1970/75 BEFORE THRILLER IN MANILLA [ WISH ALI RETIRED AFTER THIS ]
PRIME ALI NO-MAN BETTER.

[Giancarlo]

[doug.ie]

not really a proper response to this thread....but ali half killed himself getting in shape for holmes...he went into that fight depleted on every level..

May 29th 1979... (thanks Wouter)

[Syntax Error]

He looks like Odlanier Solis in that picture; man tits & all!

[Broomhall]

really hard fight to call. Both tough men, both great athletes in their peak, but I just give an edge to Ali as I think he just had that little edge in creativity to turn a fight round-but really you can make a strong case for both men.

Mentioning the spinks fight with Holmes is similar to mentioning Leon Spinks with Ali and neither boxer would get close to Holmes or Ali at anything like their best.

[Scypion]

For what it is worth, I would go with Ali in the 1960's and early 1970's.

[doug.ie]

"He was the greatest fighter in the world," Holmes said at his postfight news conference. "He's one hell of an athlete, one hell of a man. Even trying to win a fourth title is one hell of an achievement. He had a two-year layoff and then tried to fight the baddest heavyweight in the world."

[Syntax Error]

That picture is quite remarkable as it must be one of the few punches Muhammad threw!

I'll admit, it's a long time since I've watched that fight in its entirety, but all I can remember is Ali practically frozen in time, unable or unwilling to throw any punches & Larry teeing off on him repeatedly.

[wouter]

not really a proper response to this thread....but ali half killed himself getting in shape for holmes...he went into that fight depleted on every level..

Dec 26th 1979...

That picture is actually from May 29 1979 when Ali boxed a number of exhibitions at the Royal Albert Hall.

[doug.ie]

so it is...well corrected.

[cfang]

The Ali of the early 70s wins this and the Ali of the mid 60s wins this easier. Ali was a class above holmes in my view. Holmes's biggest wins are against guys like cooney, spoon, norton etc I know the quality wasn't the same in the 80s as the 70s but you only have to look at the trouble Larry had with an older Norton. holmes a great fighter of course but Ali would have taken him.

[aajayunlimited]

The differences in this matchup that matter: 1. Ali is the fastest in all of history when in his prime and a was multipunch combination puncher(maybe 10 punches). VS Holmes was probably 2nd amongst the heavyweights in speed, but far slower than a prime Ali. Also, Holmes was a 1-2-3 punch and not a multipunch combination puncher. His third punch is incredibly slow compared to the 1st 2. Watch him. So, offensively, there is no contest--considering that Holmes lacked a Henry Cooper left hook or a Shavers' level right to possibly put Ali down, too!

2. Ali's footwork and defense was a step and a half above anybody else in history; but then, add in there his height and length as an extra obstacle with that footwork and defense. Holmes was hit often and only retreated after being hurt(Shavers). Again, no contest!

3. Since neither would probably be knocked down, Ali was an accurate fighter(precise otherwise) even when you held your hands up to protect. He never needed a body punch! Fighters use body punches--in part--to compensate for head punches that they will miss over the course of a fight! Holmes was probably 2nd or 3rd best(Norton was pretty accurate) and his competition could be quite easy for a boxer-style fighter to hit. Again, no contest.

4. Holmes would come straight at Ali; whereas, Norton looked to neutralize some of that speed advantage that Ali had. In turn, Norton had beat Ali once and was Ali's toughest opponent over 3 fights. Holmes would seem a lot like C. Williams or Terrell in stance--chasing Ali--but doing far more than they did.

Because Holmes is a distant number 2 boxer to Ali with a great chin, he'd win some rounds. 10 - 5, Ali. Ali could win by TKO, if Holmes couldn't take very fast-very good(sometimes very good) punches. Holmes has never had to deal with punching that he couldn't see except for Tyson(past his prime then).

[Kalan]

It would be very similar to the Holmes-Ali fight... where Ali lost every round by a million miles before quitting in his corner... Ali had a chance to fight Holmes in his prime -- but he fought unranked Leon Spinks instead... Holmes beat Norton for the stripped Heavyweight Title, but Ali acted as if Larry didn't exist.

Holmes jab was too good and he was too strong, slick, and tough for the soft Ali... Ali barely beat Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Ali got his jaw shattered by when he was badly beaten by wide open Ken Norton...Ali was floored and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper... Ali got beaten to trash and blasted to the canvas by fat little 5'11" X 205 Joe Frazier... Ali looked like he was trying to smuggle a cantalope in his right cheek after the Smokin' Joe fight... and variously, Ali looked really vulnerable and very easy to hit -- because he pulled straight back from punches instead of taking the time to develop the masterful defensive skills of a superb boxer like Larry Holmes.

[Syntax Error]

It would be very similar to the Holmes-Ali fight... where Ali lost every round by a million miles before quitting in his corner... Ali had a chance to fight Holmes in his prime -- but he fought unranked Leon Spinks instead... Holmes beat Norton for the stripped Heavyweight Title, but Ali acted as if Larry didn't exist.

Holmes jab was too good and he was too strong, slick, and tough for the soft Ali... Ali barely beat Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Ali got his jaw shattered by when he was badly beaten by wide open Ken Norton...Ali was floored and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper... Ali got beaten to trash and blasted to the canvas by fat little 5'11" X 205 Joe Frazier... Ali looked like he was trying to smuggle a cantalope in his right cheek after the Smokin' Joe fight... and variously, Ali looked really vulnerable and very easy to hit -- because he pulled straight back from punches instead of taking the time to develop the masterful defensive skills of a superb boxer like Larry Holmes.

It's quite telling that you conveniently cite the time before & after Ali was in his absolute peak as a barometer against Holmes.

When he was decked against Cooper & when he struggled against Jones, he was young kid who had not developed physically nor mentally.

All the fights in the 70s were also after his absolute prime too.

How about using 1966/67 as Ali's prime period & pitching that version against Holmes?

[hhaehre]

It would be very similar to the Holmes-Ali fight... where Ali lost every round by a million miles before quitting in his corner... Ali had a chance to fight Holmes in his prime -- but he fought unranked Leon Spinks instead... Holmes beat Norton for the stripped Heavyweight Title, but Ali acted as if Larry didn't exist.

Holmes jab was too good and he was too strong, slick, and tough for the soft Ali... Ali barely beat Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Ali got his jaw shattered by when he was badly beaten by wide open Ken Norton...Ali was floored and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper... Ali got beaten to trash and blasted to the canvas by fat little 5'11" X 205 Joe Frazier... Ali looked like he was trying to smuggle a cantalope in his right cheek after the Smokin' Joe fight... and variously, Ali looked really vulnerable and very easy to hit -- because he pulled straight back from punches instead of taking the time to develop the masterful defensive skills of a superb boxer like Larry Holmes.

and Holmes was knocked senseless by Tyson and outpointed twice by a light heavyweight and lost to McCall and was taken the distance by Butterbean and babble babble bullshit bullshit babble babble and I can read Boxrec records and bable babble and Frazier couldn't swim and in the end WILT!!

[Kalan]

It would be very similar to the Holmes-Ali fight... where Ali lost every round by a million miles before quitting in his corner... Ali had a chance to fight Holmes in his prime -- but he fought unranked Leon Spinks instead... Holmes beat Norton for the stripped Heavyweight Title, but Ali acted as if Larry didn't exist.

Holmes jab was too good and he was too strong, slick, and tough for the soft Ali... Ali barely beat Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Ali got his jaw shattered by when he was badly beaten by wide open Ken Norton...Ali was floored and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper... Ali got beaten to trash and blasted to the canvas by fat little 5'11" X 205 Joe Frazier... Ali looked like he was trying to smuggle a cantalope in his right cheek after the Smokin' Joe fight... and variously, Ali looked really vulnerable and very easy to hit -- because he pulled straight back from punches instead of taking the time to develop the masterful defensive skills of a superb boxer like Larry Holmes.

and Holmes was knocked senseless by Tyson and outpointed twice by a light heavyweight and lost to McCall and was taken the distance by Butterbean and babble babble bullshit bullshit babble babble and I can read Boxrec records and bable babble and Frazier couldn't swim and in the end WILT!!

Holmes lost a few... but he didn't look as bad as Ali doing it... Holmes won his first 48 fights including 21 Heavyweight Championship fights. Not many do that

What happened to Holmes in his 40's and 50's -- when he was still fighting??? ... Ali had long since been beaten to trash by that age. Ali lacked LH's skills