Joshua ranked 5th in world by Boxing Monthly

[Graham Houston]

I would also put forward that any fighter with the offensive force that AJ is will be less likely to struggle against journeymen etc. because of his power. As soon as he starts landing, his opponent is hurt and less likely to offer much offensive threat of their own and goes into a survival mode where they do not even attempt to test the prospect. Really do you think any Olympic gold medal winner would struggle to beat the version of each AJ opponent as he has faced?

I don’t think you can make comparisons based on first ten fights etc. because guys without the offence tools that AJ has at his disposal will of course do more rounds with the journeymen they face, and will of course take more shots as a result of doing those rounds, but that is all part of the learning experience – an experience that AJ, like Price before him is not getting.

As for odds and house fighters. I agree if the match up is made by a shrewd matchmaker then you have to consider the matchmaker factor you described, but as of now the promotional company has not put forward any of Stiverne/Pulev/Jennings as a targeted opponent, and hence the factor is not actually a factor at all when compiling theoretical odds which are supposedly based on if two fighters were forced to meet, not if AJs matchmaker were to choose him as an opponent.

Bottom line, AJ has not been hit, he hasn’t been in with an opponent who can hit, he hasn’t been put under pressure, he hasn’t yet been in with a guy whose gameplan is anything other than damage limitation. The questions with AJ for now are what will happen when the bully gets bullied, and what has he learned during his pro apprenticeship to date to get him through that time when it inevitably comes?

Fair points, but some heavyweight bullies -- your description of Joshua, not mine -- didn't do too badly: Liston, Foreman, Tyson.

I don't like to knock David Price, but, have to say it, he was stopped by Stiverne in the amateurs and, no other way to put it, destroyed by Cammarelle, whereas Joshua has stood up to pressure and heavy hits from top-level amateurs, including the aforementioned Roberto Cammarelle. Everything I understand about Joshua is that he puts in the work that a heavyweight championship aspirant needs to put in. A UK bookmaker is offering a price of 10-1 on that Joshua wins a version of the world heavyweight title before Jan. 1, 2020 and 11/10 on that Joshua does it before Jan. 1, 2017. Bookmakers always let head rule heart. They're basically saying that in their view, AJ is roughly even money to have won a world heavyweight title before the next 18 months is up. That's a pretty big vote of confidence in AJ and maybe explains why my completely unofficial odds on AJ vs Pulev etc. were as high as they were.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I would also put forward that any fighter with the offensive force that AJ is will be less likely to struggle against journeymen etc. because of his power. As soon as he starts landing, his opponent is hurt and less likely to offer much offensive threat of their own and goes into a survival mode where they do not even attempt to test the prospect. Really do you think any Olympic gold medal winner would struggle to beat the version of each AJ opponent as he has faced?

I don’t think you can make comparisons based on first ten fights etc. because guys without the offence tools that AJ has at his disposal will of course do more rounds with the journeymen they face, and will of course take more shots as a result of doing those rounds, but that is all part of the learning experience – an experience that AJ, like Price before him is not getting.

As for odds and house fighters. I agree if the match up is made by a shrewd matchmaker then you have to consider the matchmaker factor you described, but as of now the promotional company has not put forward any of Stiverne/Pulev/Jennings as a targeted opponent, and hence the factor is not actually a factor at all when compiling theoretical odds which are supposedly based on if two fighters were forced to meet, not if AJs matchmaker were to choose him as an opponent.

Bottom line, AJ has not been hit, he hasn’t been in with an opponent who can hit, he hasn’t been put under pressure, he hasn’t yet been in with a guy whose gameplan is anything other than damage limitation. The questions with AJ for now are what will happen when the bully gets bullied, and what has he learned during his pro apprenticeship to date to get him through that time when it inevitably comes?

Fair points, but some heavyweight bullies -- your description of Joshua, not mine -- didn't do too badly: Liston, Foreman, Tyson.

I don't like to knock David Price, but, have to say it, he was stopped by Stiverne in the amateurs and, no other way to put it, destroyed by Cammarelle, whereas Joshua has stood up to pressure and heavy hits from top-level amateurs, including the aforementioned Roberto Cammarelle. Everything I understand about Joshua is that he puts in the work that a heavyweight championship aspirant needs to put in. A UK bookmaker is offering a price of 10-1 on that Joshua wins a version of the world heavyweight title before Jan. 1, 2020 and 11/10 on that Joshua does it before Jan. 1, 2017. Bookmakers always let head rule heart. They're basically saying that in their view, AJ is roughly even money to have won a world heavyweight title before the next 18 months is up. That's a pretty big vote of confidence in AJ and maybe explains why my completely unofficial odds on AJ vs Pulev etc. were as high as they were.

Biggest question mark remains his stamina - and that is a big concern - it is likely that he's going to smash most people up very quickly indeed, as he certainly has weight of punch, and a pretty mean killer streak in him - it may be several years in fact in the current heavyweight divison, before he faces someone durable and/or cagey enough to avoid being stretched out.

Power is however the most seductive of attributes in a fighter, and it often deludes as all, the vision of the unassailable destroyer of men, can evaporate very quickly under the harsh lighting of another young, hungry and determined heavyweight with power of their own.

[Boxerbeetle]

I'm not sure I'd bet against Joshua unless he was fighting Wlad. I certainly think he'd stop Fury within 2 rounds.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I'm not sure I'd bet against Joshua unless he was fighting Wlad. I certainly think he'd stop Fury within 2 rounds.

Be interesting to see him in with someone durable like Povetkin - if he blows him away, then really it's hard to see who else is going to trouble him for many years, because there's nothing much out there.

[johnswan1]

I would also put forward that any fighter with the offensive force that AJ is will be less likely to struggle against journeymen etc. because of his power. As soon as he starts landing, his opponent is hurt and less likely to offer much offensive threat of their own and goes into a survival mode where they do not even attempt to test the prospect. Really do you think any Olympic gold medal winner would struggle to beat the version of each AJ opponent as he has faced?

I don’t think you can make comparisons based on first ten fights etc. because guys without the offence tools that AJ has at his disposal will of course do more rounds with the journeymen they face, and will of course take more shots as a result of doing those rounds, but that is all part of the learning experience – an experience that AJ, like Price before him is not getting.

As for odds and house fighters. I agree if the match up is made by a shrewd matchmaker then you have to consider the matchmaker factor you described, but as of now the promotional company has not put forward any of Stiverne/Pulev/Jennings as a targeted opponent, and hence the factor is not actually a factor at all when compiling theoretical odds which are supposedly based on if two fighters were forced to meet, not if AJs matchmaker were to choose him as an opponent.

Bottom line, AJ has not been hit, he hasn’t been in with an opponent who can hit, he hasn’t been put under pressure, he hasn’t yet been in with a guy whose gameplan is anything other than damage limitation. The questions with AJ for now are what will happen when the bully gets bullied, and what has he learned during his pro apprenticeship to date to get him through that time when it inevitably comes?

Fair points, but some heavyweight bullies -- your description of Joshua, not mine -- didn't do too badly: Liston, Foreman, Tyson.

I don't like to knock David Price, but, have to say it, he was stopped by Stiverne in the amateurs and, no other way to put it, destroyed by Cammarelle, whereas Joshua has stood up to pressure and heavy hits from top-level amateurs, including the aforementioned Roberto Cammarelle. Everything I understand about Joshua is that he puts in the work that a heavyweight championship aspirant needs to put in. A UK bookmaker is offering a price of 10-1 on that Joshua wins a version of the world heavyweight title before Jan. 1, 2020 and 11/10 on that Joshua does it before Jan. 1, 2017. Bookmakers always let head rule heart. They're basically saying that in their view, AJ is roughly even money to have won a world heavyweight title before the next 18 months is up. That's a pretty big vote of confidence in AJ and maybe explains why my completely unofficial odds on AJ vs Pulev etc. were as high as they were.

Tyson was indeed one of the most devastating of heavyweight bullies in history, yet he still managed to do ten rounds with each of James Tillis (who Tim Witherspoon had previously taken out inside of a round) , Mitch Green & Jose Ribalta inside his first two years as a pro and prior to his title challenge to Berbick. In fact, Tyson won by just 6-4 on two of the judges scorecards against Tillis.

George Foreman? He had an eight round decision followed by two ten round decision victories, again inside his first two years as a pro. And Liston, he had three split decisions (including one loss) inside his first eight fights - and of the seven wins only two came inside the distance.

Point is that these men, as formidable as they were, all share a common trait in that they served solid apprenticeships before making title challenges. AJ has not.

[Graham Houston]

I would also put forward that any fighter with the offensive force that AJ is will be less likely to struggle against journeymen etc. because of his power. As soon as he starts landing, his opponent is hurt and less likely to offer much offensive threat of their own and goes into a survival mode where they do not even attempt to test the prospect. Really do you think any Olympic gold medal winner would struggle to beat the version of each AJ opponent as he has faced?

I don’t think you can make comparisons based on first ten fights etc. because guys without the offence tools that AJ has at his disposal will of course do more rounds with the journeymen they face, and will of course take more shots as a result of doing those rounds, but that is all part of the learning experience – an experience that AJ, like Price before him is not getting.

As for odds and house fighters. I agree if the match up is made by a shrewd matchmaker then you have to consider the matchmaker factor you described, but as of now the promotional company has not put forward any of Stiverne/Pulev/Jennings as a targeted opponent, and hence the factor is not actually a factor at all when compiling theoretical odds which are supposedly based on if two fighters were forced to meet, not if AJs matchmaker were to choose him as an opponent.

Bottom line, AJ has not been hit, he hasn’t been in with an opponent who can hit, he hasn’t been put under pressure, he hasn’t yet been in with a guy whose gameplan is anything other than damage limitation. The questions with AJ for now are what will happen when the bully gets bullied, and what has he learned during his pro apprenticeship to date to get him through that time when it inevitably comes?

Fair points, but some heavyweight bullies -- your description of Joshua, not mine -- didn't do too badly: Liston, Foreman, Tyson.

I don't like to knock David Price, but, have to say it, he was stopped by Stiverne in the amateurs and, no other way to put it, destroyed by Cammarelle, whereas Joshua has stood up to pressure and heavy hits from top-level amateurs, including the aforementioned Roberto Cammarelle. Everything I understand about Joshua is that he puts in the work that a heavyweight championship aspirant needs to put in. A UK bookmaker is offering a price of 10-1 on that Joshua wins a version of the world heavyweight title before Jan. 1, 2020 and 11/10 on that Joshua does it before Jan. 1, 2017. Bookmakers always let head rule heart. They're basically saying that in their view, AJ is roughly even money to have won a world heavyweight title before the next 18 months is up. That's a pretty big vote of confidence in AJ and maybe explains why my completely unofficial odds on AJ vs Pulev etc. were as high as they were.

Tyson was indeed one of the most devastating of heavyweight bullies in history, yet he still managed to do ten rounds with each of James Tillis (who Tim Witherspoon had previously taken out inside of a round) , Mitch Green & Jose Ribalta inside his first two years as a pro and prior to his title challenge to Berbick. In fact, Tyson won by just 6-4 on two of the judges scorecards against Tillis.

George Foreman? He had an eight round decision followed by two ten round decision victories, again inside his first two years as a pro. And Liston, he had three split decisions (including one loss) inside his first eight fights - and of the seven wins only two came inside the distance.

Point is that these men, as formidable as they were, all share a common trait in that they served solid apprenticeships before making title challenges. AJ has not.

True, but AJ was Olympic gold medallist and world championships silver medallist. To me, that counts for something. I'm very confident that when the time comes (if it comes) for AJ to go 10 or even 12 rounds, he will do so without running out of gas. Doesn't AJ go back to the dressing room and "complete the fight" on the pads after a quick win? I believe the people around AJ -- Tony Simms etc. -- know what they are doing.

As I recall, some people believed Deontay Wilder might gas out when he had to go past four rounds for the first time, but he went 12 easily enough vs Stiverne. I remember when Larry Donald boxed the more seasoned Jeremy Williams in a 12-rounder, and Donald hadn't been past 6 rounds, and there was concern that Donald would fade in the second half, but he did the 12 rounds comfortably and won the fight fairly easily (despite the draw vote from one of the judges).

Trainers tell me that if their man does 12 in the gym without running out of steam that the fighter will be just fine if a "real" fight goes late. Maybe AJ will have to do what David Haye did and go into a bout with the set purpose of getting 12 rounds in (Haye vs Abdoul), but I don't think that's in Joshua's DNA, I think he likes to get opponents out of there, which is one reason why the fans love him.

Good grief, just realised this has turned into an AJ debate when all I intended was to state the BM position on Joshua's top 5 rating.

[squared circle]

Graham, thanks for such extensive replies.

I still don't agree with you but understand your logic.

Look forward to the middleweights next month then!!

[stevedoc]

I've enjoyed this debate more than most great to here thought out logic rather than angry shouting matches,

[handsofstone]

I've enjoyed this debate more than most great to here thought out logic rather than angry shouting matches,

CS take note

[MightyWarrior]

Interesting, and completely understand Graham's viewpoint of the BN ratings , they're not a belt organisation, so obviously it's not about who deserves a shot at the title ( or who's paid the pres the most money that month )
It's about who, in all likelihood, beats who, taking in to account activity as well, and Based on Graham Houston's awesome ability to pick the right results in most fights, in my opinion it's going to be fairly accurate

[jamesmcdonnell]

I would also put forward that any fighter with the offensive force that AJ is will be less likely to struggle against journeymen etc. because of his power. As soon as he starts landing, his opponent is hurt and less likely to offer much offensive threat of their own and goes into a survival mode where they do not even attempt to test the prospect. Really do you think any Olympic gold medal winner would struggle to beat the version of each AJ opponent as he has faced?

I don’t think you can make comparisons based on first ten fights etc. because guys without the offence tools that AJ has at his disposal will of course do more rounds with the journeymen they face, and will of course take more shots as a result of doing those rounds, but that is all part of the learning experience – an experience that AJ, like Price before him is not getting.

As for odds and house fighters. I agree if the match up is made by a shrewd matchmaker then you have to consider the matchmaker factor you described, but as of now the promotional company has not put forward any of Stiverne/Pulev/Jennings as a targeted opponent, and hence the factor is not actually a factor at all when compiling theoretical odds which are supposedly based on if two fighters were forced to meet, not if AJs matchmaker were to choose him as an opponent.

Bottom line, AJ has not been hit, he hasn’t been in with an opponent who can hit, he hasn’t been put under pressure, he hasn’t yet been in with a guy whose gameplan is anything other than damage limitation. The questions with AJ for now are what will happen when the bully gets bullied, and what has he learned during his pro apprenticeship to date to get him through that time when it inevitably comes?

Fair points, but some heavyweight bullies -- your description of Joshua, not mine -- didn't do too badly: Liston, Foreman, Tyson.

I don't like to knock David Price, but, have to say it, he was stopped by Stiverne in the amateurs and, no other way to put it, destroyed by Cammarelle, whereas Joshua has stood up to pressure and heavy hits from top-level amateurs, including the aforementioned Roberto Cammarelle. Everything I understand about Joshua is that he puts in the work that a heavyweight championship aspirant needs to put in. A UK bookmaker is offering a price of 10-1 on that Joshua wins a version of the world heavyweight title before Jan. 1, 2020 and 11/10 on that Joshua does it before Jan. 1, 2017. Bookmakers always let head rule heart. They're basically saying that in their view, AJ is roughly even money to have won a world heavyweight title before the next 18 months is up. That's a pretty big vote of confidence in AJ and maybe explains why my completely unofficial odds on AJ vs Pulev etc. were as high as they were.

Tyson was indeed one of the most devastating of heavyweight bullies in history, yet he still managed to do ten rounds with each of James Tillis (who Tim Witherspoon had previously taken out inside of a round) , Mitch Green & Jose Ribalta inside his first two years as a pro and prior to his title challenge to Berbick. In fact, Tyson won by just 6-4 on two of the judges scorecards against Tillis.

George Foreman? He had an eight round decision followed by two ten round decision victories, again inside his first two years as a pro. And Liston, he had three split decisions (including one loss) inside his first eight fights - and of the seven wins only two came inside the distance.

Point is that these men, as formidable as they were, all share a common trait in that they served solid apprenticeships before making title challenges. AJ has not.

Excellent points. Joshua's management have been pretty astute thus far in not moving him too fast, the only difficulty is actually getting him many rounds.

[Rob3_142]

In all honesty, if AJ does have the legs to go 12 rounds, and does have a chin, the HW division is in a lot of trouble.

[whiskey]

Great thread.

On the face of it, yes it does seem high - and with heavyweights there is always the chin question, which is one that has not really been asked of AJ yet.

But saying that, we all know that Wlad has a glass chin and he's been incredible for the last few years.

I agree about the Pulev destruction, he seemed game enough to at least have a go for what it was worth. But I think he might be another Sultan Ibragimov, who looked decent and unbeaten and then was defeated by Klitschko and vanished.

I think mixing rankings with who you'd put your money on are difficult to mesh together.

Rankings are earned I suppose, regardless who you think would win if it ever boiled down to it.

So I see why he is 5th and also see arguments for and against it. As usual it's all subjective.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Fair points, but some heavyweight bullies -- your description of Joshua, not mine -- didn't do too badly: Liston, Foreman, Tyson.

I don't like to knock David Price, but, have to say it, he was stopped by Stiverne in the amateurs and, no other way to put it, destroyed by Cammarelle, whereas Joshua has stood up to pressure and heavy hits from top-level amateurs, including the aforementioned Roberto Cammarelle. Everything I understand about Joshua is that he puts in the work that a heavyweight championship aspirant needs to put in. A UK bookmaker is offering a price of 10-1 on that Joshua wins a version of the world heavyweight title before Jan. 1, 2020 and 11/10 on that Joshua does it before Jan. 1, 2017. Bookmakers always let head rule heart. They're basically saying that in their view, AJ is roughly even money to have won a world heavyweight title before the next 18 months is up. That's a pretty big vote of confidence in AJ and maybe explains why my completely unofficial odds on AJ vs Pulev etc. were as high as they were.[/quote]

Tyson was indeed one of the most devastating of heavyweight bullies in history, yet he still managed to do ten rounds with each of James Tillis (who Tim Witherspoon had previously taken out inside of a round) , Mitch Green & Jose Ribalta inside his first two years as a pro and prior to his title challenge to Berbick. In fact, Tyson won by just 6-4 on two of the judges scorecards against Tillis.

George Foreman? He had an eight round decision followed by two ten round decision victories, again inside his first two years as a pro. And Liston, he had three split decisions (including one loss) inside his first eight fights - and of the seven wins only two came inside the distance.

Point is that these men, as formidable as they were, all share a common trait in that they served solid apprenticeships before making title challenges. AJ has not.[/quote]

True, but AJ was Olympic gold medallist and world championships silver medallist. To me, that counts for something. I'm very confident that when the time comes (if it comes) for AJ to go 10 or even 12 rounds, he will do so without running out of gas. Doesn't AJ go back to the dressing room and "complete the fight" on the pads after a quick win? I believe the people around AJ -- Tony Simms etc. -- know what they are doing.

As I recall, some people believed Deontay Wilder might gas out when he had to go past four rounds for the first time, but he went 12 easily enough vs Stiverne. I remember when Larry Donald boxed the more seasoned Jeremy Williams in a 12-rounder, and Donald hadn't been past 6 rounds, and there was concern that Donald would fade in the second half, but he did the 12 rounds comfortably and won the fight fairly easily (despite the draw vote from one of the judges).

Trainers tell me that if their man does 12 in the gym without running out of steam that the fighter will be just fine if a "real" fight goes late. Maybe AJ will have to do what David Haye did and go into a bout with the set purpose of getting 12 rounds in (Haye vs Abdoul), but I don't think that's in Joshua's DNA, I think he likes to get opponents out of there, which is one reason why the fans love him.

Good grief, just realised this has turned into an AJ debate when all I intended was to state the BM position on Joshua's top 5 rating.[/quote]

That's boxrec for ya - bit like a Ronnie Corbet joke.

Does that huge hulking physique not concern you Graham? It's basic Physiology - muscle tissue burns oxygen very quickly, and bigger muscles mean the oxygen debt builds up quicker. You can't avoid biology.

Joshua can probably do 12 rounds, but it's 12 rounds at what pace? I cannot imagine him lugging that huge upper body around and throwing punches in a sustained fashion for 12 hard rounds - then again, there aren't many fighters to make him fight like that any more.

Denotay Wilder is a great deal less bulked up than Joshua whose weight seems to be increasing steadily. Obviously it will plateau soon as he's not aiming to be Mr Universe.

I guess at some point we may find out - perhaps Joshua will like Wlad, develop a very economical style which preserves his stamina in the later rounds - but it doesn't seem to me to be how he would want to fight.

[stujones]

I think 5th is too high and I think you need to look at concrete record of opponents before making such a judgement call. Yes, Joshua has looked very good - but so did Pulev before Klitchsko, so did Povetkin before Klitchsko also.

Glyn Leach himself got absolutely lambasted (took it well though) for many a year of his ranking of Jorge Luis Gonzalez.

If we are going on who beats who entirely, then shouldn't Joshua be ranked maybe higher than 5? I have a hunch Joshua would start a slight betting favourite vs Fury, Povetkin and Wilder - NOW.... Just as Eubank Jnr was vs BJS.

I remember back in the day, boxing monthly used to have some cases where a fighter would rank higher than another brit in the British rankings, but lower in the world rankings - I think the editor used to justify this based on likelihood to get and succeed in a world title shot. I think in this case it might be the same. I think you HAVE to have Chisora ranked above Joshua in terms of Britain - it would be considered a step UP after all. However, in terms of world ranking - the likelihood of Chisora getting into the mix at world level is remote compared to Joshua currently.

However, I think the following need to be above him at world level -
Klitchsko, Fury, Povetkin, Wilder, Pulev, Glaskov, Jennings, Stiverne, Thompson. So I would say 10th is the tops he can be ranked and there would be a number of other fighters in the mix for the 10th spot and I'd probably edge it to Chagaev as he is a belt holder of a fashion.

[crusader]

That's a good point--if it's who beats who would anyone favorable of the current rankings have a problem with Joshua being fourth, third, second, or even first in the world?

Is it unreasonable to think that AJ would likely already beat people like Fury, Wilder, and Povetkin?

[danamba7]

Great debate, enjoyed reading.

[Horse]

Awful rankings.

[Tuan_Jim]

He literally hasn't hardly taken a punch in his professional career, and barely had an opponent who had legitimately turned up to win and give in a real effort. The hype is out of all control, i can't take it

Most of the heavyweights who receive a title shot have never boxed an opponent who had any chance of winning. The only difference between them and Joshua is that they have done it 30 times and Joshua 13 times.

In a division this appalling, no contender has anything much over Joshua.

[Boxerbeetle]

He literally hasn't hardly taken a punch in his professional career, and barely had an opponent who had legitimately turned up to win and give in a real effort. The hype is out of all control, i can't take it

Most of the heavyweights who receive a title shot have never boxed an opponent who had any chance of winning. The only difference between them and Joshua is that they have done it 30 times and Joshua 13 times.

In a division this appalling, no contender has anything much over Joshua.

Yeah this is the crux of the argument really. It's all very well saying Joshua's chin & stamina hasn't been tested yet, but outside of the Top 4 or 5 in the division, who is actually capable of testing these things? Granted this may say as much about the state of the Heavyweight division as it does about Joshua, but the point is still valid.

[crusader]

He literally hasn't hardly taken a punch in his professional career, and barely had an opponent who had legitimately turned up to win and give in a real effort. The hype is out of all control, i can't take it

Most of the heavyweights who receive a title shot have never boxed an opponent who had any chance of winning. The only difference between them and Joshua is that they have done it 30 times and Joshua 13 times.

In a division this appalling, no contender has anything much over Joshua.

Yeah this is the crux of the argument really. It's all very well saying Joshua's chin & stamina hasn't been tested yet, but outside of the Top 4 or 5 in the division, who is actually capable of testing these things? Granted this may say as much about the state of the Heavyweight division as it does about Joshua, but the point is still valid.

It's not the crux of the matter in my opinion. First, I think it's very clear that many of today's contenders and champions have fought better opposition than Joshua has, so I don't buy the comparison TJ made. AJ's best opponent, the one whose defeat seems to have sprung him up to 5th in the world in the BM rankings, is a guy who has lost 6 out of his last 7, hasn't shown ambition for years, and two fights before lost pretty much every round against and was put on his ass by Chisora---not exactly the best line of form. That opponent also hardly threw a punch, almost immediately walked to the ropes, and fought with his hands down--an incredibly stupid thing to do against Joshua.

Second, I think the issue of who can test his stamina, chin, and general ability to do things other than blowout limited opposition is, unsurprisingly, strongly tied to opposition quality and ambition. It's all well and good saying that he'll bowl over everyone because he did the same to Kevin Johnson, but what ambition did Johnson have? Did he at any point show a serious intent to do something other than survive? Did his recent record of 5 losses out of 6 suggest a strong ability to do more than that? How about the drubbing at Chisora's hands? Now Joshua surely impressed with the manner of victory and I don't think anyone's doubting that he's a very good offensive fighter, but I would say that he hasn't fought one opponent who tried to win or possessed any serious tools--particularly offensively--to help them accomplish this. Thus, in my view it's been largely heavy bag practice for AJ, meaning he's hardly had to take punches, adjust, or do much more than hit an unmoving target for a few rounds.

When opponents are limited in these ways Joshua can do as he pleases, but things can be very different when someone must deal with an opponent who is not just lying down for them and has some decent tools to work with. Perhaps Joshua is driven back, a position all his amateur conquerors put him in, and is less effective when he's not marching forward; perhaps a tendency that he showed when under fire as an amateur to stick out his chin returns and he gets nailed by an opponent who is actually throwing several punches back at him; perhaps he faces a good puncher (who is the biggest puncher he's faced?) and gets buzzed--thus making him more hesitant to come forward and throw so freely or vulnerable if he decides to keep attacking anyway; perhaps an opponent with a fairly tight guard (Jennings showed this against Wlad) is able to block most of his attack and thus reduce the quality of his attack--and so on. In turn, if Joshua is not having it all his way and has to deal with these problems an early stoppage could be significantly less likely and issues of stamina could arise.

To me someone is having a laugh if they don't think that many fighters are more capable of offering these types of issues to Joshua than people like no ambition Johnson--who isn't even a fringe contender anymore--or Bakhtov, Airich, and three 1st round stoppage losses in a year Sprott are. AJ is obviously good and I wouldn't be surprised if he shows top class even if he's presented with these types of opponents, but given the limited opposition he's fought it's too early for me to be saying he's currently the 2nd best fighter in the division and should be ranked in the top 5 or even multiple spots higher!

[johnswan1]

It's not the crux of the matter in my opinion. First, I think it's very clear that many of today's contenders and champions have fought better opposition than Joshua has, so I don't buy the comparison TJ made. AJ's best opponent, the one whose defeat seems to have sprung him up to 5th in the world in the BM rankings, is a guy who has lost 6 out of his last 7, hasn't shown ambition for years, and two fights before lost pretty much every round against and was put on his ass by Chisora---not exactly the best line of form. That opponent also hardly threw a punch, almost immediately walked to the ropes, and fought with his hands down--an incredibly stupid thing to do against Joshua.

Second, I think the issue of who can test his stamina, chin, and general ability to do things other than blowout limited opposition is, unsurprisingly, strongly tied to opposition quality and ambition. It's all well and good saying that he'll bowl over everyone because he did the same to Kevin Johnson, but what ambition did Johnson have? Did he at any point show a serious intent to do something other than survive? Did his recent record of 5 losses out of 6 suggest a strong ability to do more than that? How about the drubbing at Chisora's hands? Now Joshua surely impressed with the manner of victory and I don't think anyone's doubting that he's a very good offensive fighter, but I would say that he hasn't fought one opponent who tried to win or possessed any serious tools--particularly offensively--to help them accomplish this. Thus, in my view it's been largely heavy bag practice for AJ, meaning he's hardly had to take punches, adjust, or do much more than hit an unmoving target for a few rounds.

When opponents are limited in these ways Joshua can do as he pleases, but things can be very different when someone must deal with an opponent who is not just lying down for them and has some decent tools to work with. Perhaps Joshua is driven back, a position all his amateur conquerors put him in, and is less effective when he's not marching forward; perhaps a tendency that he showed when under fire as an amateur to stick out his chin returns and he gets nailed by an opponent who is actually throwing several punches back at him; perhaps he faces a good puncher (who is the biggest puncher he's faced?) and gets buzzed--thus making him more hesitant to come forward and throw so freely or vulnerable if he decides to keep attacking anyway; perhaps an opponent with a fairly tight guard (Jennings showed this against Wlad) is able to block most of his attack and thus reduce the quality of his attack--and so on. In turn, if Joshua is not having it all his way and has to deal with these problems an early stoppage could be significantly less likely and issues of stamina could arise.

To me someone is having a laugh if they don't think that many fighters are more capable of offering these types of issues to Joshua than people like no ambition Johnson--who isn't even a fringe contender anymore--or Bakhtov, Airich, and three 1st round stoppage losses in a year Sprott are. AJ is obviously good and I wouldn't be surprised if he shows top class even if he's presented with these types of opponents, but given the limited opposition he's fought it's too early for me to be saying he's currently the 2nd best fighter in the division and should be ranked in the top 5 or even multiple spots higher!

Very well said.

[Rob3_142]

AJ just been taken off the 18 July bill? Can't find any journeymen to have their faces rearranged?

Looking like Mariusz Wach is the man being propositioned for the September fight.

[danamba7]

Although I do think the division is poor, there's plenty of fights at this stage that will test AJ in different ways and be considered decent step ups before possibly challenging for the world title. Dillian Whyte, Price, Lucas Browne, Wach, Thompson, Parker, Glazkhov before moving on to Pulev, Fury, Povetkin, Wlad if still at the top.

[crusader]

Although I do think the division is poor, there's plenty of fights at this stage that will test AJ in different ways and be considered decent step ups before possibly challenging for the world title. Dillian Whyte, Price, Lucas Browne, Wach, Thompson, Parker, Glazkhov before moving on to Pulev, Fury, Povetkin, Wlad if still at the top.

Yep, I agree.

Just because the division has some problems doesn't mean that there aren't good matches like these for AJ.