What does Mick Hennessy and Channel 5 fighters earn

[bripez]

I don't think anyone realises what a tough world the boxing business is. Very hard to make a good living as a promoter.

If that is the case then they could always go into another line of business or get a job, like the rest of the population.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I don't think anyone realises what a tough world the boxing business is. Very hard to make a good living as a promoter.

If that is the case then they could always go into another line of business or get a job, like the rest of the population.

Perhaps they enjoy the work they do, whether or not they always make money.

Some of your comments in the previous statement show your knowledge of the boxing business and how promotion works is pretty limited, I won't bore myself going into detail, but you clearly know far less than you think you do.

[Glass Joe]

Mick done well to stay around his shows are pretty crap match making quality but always seems to survive. if it wasn't for either fury or channel 5 i doubt he would be around today. Shame he doesn't do massive shows always C level shows. think his biggest he single promoted with Froch against dirrell.

[Parson Cross]

So amusing.
20 fight show ? Bripez what planet are you on ?
I'm not going to go through the maths because the last time this thread came up you just get people accusing others of being "know alls".
Lets just start at 1000 attendees at an average of £40.
Now start filling in the expenditure column.
I wouldn't be a Promoter with no TV deal no way.
All this Promoters don't Promote shit is precisely that.

[mickey1975]

Most of the pros I know get asked for tickets, it's not like they go touting them in the street. They know how many they'll do as well. Only problem is dinner shows.

[Wake up call]

Where did I say it was easy ? - if it was easy then we would all be doing it (and all be driving round in Bentleys to our mock tudor mansions).

If somebody makes the decision to become a boxing promoter, then surely it is not unreasonable that they actually promote ?

Look at some of the shows you see - the promoter hires out the venue and covers the medical costs and security etc. They then have a card of 20 fights (many involving boxers who are both signed to the promoter).

The promoter then says "right lads" you are on a commission only purse, and by the way if you don't sell x number of tickets then you wont be used again.

The only "risk" is the cost of the venue etc. - but with 40 boxers out there selling tickets, this is comparatively low compared to other businesses.

If that is your idea of promoting then it differs from mine.

I don't know how to respond to that drivel.

You clearly do not have any idea how the business of boxing works. I'm sure many promoters would love for it to be as you describe it,but it really isn't.

[Crazyboy]

I think the part the I don't understand and maybe what Bripez is talking about to some degree, is the actual 'promotion' part of being a promoter.

I know its not easy and I know there is a lot more to promoting than I can probably ever imagine but I saw this in an article I read earlier:

'The biggest skill involved in being a great promoter is being a great promoter -- knowing how to market and advertise a fight so that it appeals to the broadest possible demographic'

That for me is promotion and what I think Bripez is talking about.

Now, how much time and effort these guys have to put into that part of their role I don't know as clearly there is a lot more to their job than people think.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think the part the I don't understand and maybe what Bripez is talking about to some degree, is the actual 'promotion' part of being a promoter.

I know its not easy and I know there is a lot more to promoting than I can probably ever imagine but I saw this in an article I read earlier:

'The biggest skill involved in being a great promoter is being a great promoter -- knowing how to market and advertise a fight so that it appeals to the broadest possible demographic'

That for me is promotion and what I think Bripez is talking about.

Now, how much time and effort these guys have to put into that part of their role I don't know as clearly there is a lot more to their job than people think.

I think the biggest part of a promoters job in this day and age in reality is doing deals with sanctioning bodies (as do managers), and TV companies, as this is by far the biggest way to guarantee revenue. Ticket sales in all but the biggest events in boxing, are always going to be very limited, you'd do very well to sell out York Hall for a fight that isn't picked up by TV and that holds 1200 people. At an average of say 40 quid a ticket, that doesn't leave a shit load to go round. Now, I've never hired the venue, but it's got to be a minimum of 2 grand for a venue like that, (I'd imagine probably more) plus hiring the ring, sound and lighting, paying the MC, judges, ref, security staff (unless they are part of the price of the venue), paying all the fighters, printing flyers and posters, etc etc.

[bripez]

I don't think anyone realises what a tough world the boxing business is. Very hard to make a good living as a promoter.

If that is the case then they could always go into another line of business or get a job, like the rest of the population.

Perhaps they enjoy the work they do, whether or not they always make money.

Some of your comments in the previous statement show your knowledge of the boxing business and how promotion works is pretty limited, I won't bore myself going into detail, but you clearly know far less than you think you do.

Ok Bamber

[bripez]

So amusing.
20 fight show ? Bripez what planet are you on ?
I'm not going to go through the maths because the last time this thread came up you just get people accusing others of being "know alls".
Lets just start at 1000 attendees at an average of £40.
Now start filling in the expenditure column.
I wouldn't be a Promoter with no TV deal no way.
All this Promoters don't Promote poo is precisely that.

You may find my comments amusing, however yet again your post infers that you know more than you are willing to say.

The last we heard from you on this site was you going on about "Barry" having a great camp etc. with "big things coming up" - you have been pretty quiet since then.

[bripez]

Where did I say it was easy ? - if it was easy then we would all be doing it (and all be driving round in Bentleys to our mock tudor mansions).

If somebody makes the decision to become a boxing promoter, then surely it is not unreasonable that they actually promote ?

Look at some of the shows you see - the promoter hires out the venue and covers the medical costs and security etc. They then have a card of 20 fights (many involving boxers who are both signed to the promoter).

The promoter then says "right lads" you are on a commission only purse, and by the way if you don't sell x number of tickets then you wont be used again.

The only "risk" is the cost of the venue etc. - but with 40 boxers out there selling tickets, this is comparatively low compared to other businesses.

If that is your idea of promoting then it differs from mine.

I don't know how to respond to that drivel.

You clearly do not have any idea how the business of boxing works. I'm sure many promoters would love for it to be as you describe it,but it really isn't.

Yet you did respond - albeit without making any comment of your own.

[olij999]

Where did I say it was easy ? - if it was easy then we would all be doing it (and all be driving round in Bentleys to our mock tudor mansions).

If somebody makes the decision to become a boxing promoter, then surely it is not unreasonable that they actually promote ?

Look at some of the shows you see - the promoter hires out the venue and covers the medical costs and security etc. They then have a card of 20 fights (many involving boxers who are both signed to the promoter).

The promoter then says "right lads" you are on a commission only purse, and by the way if you don't sell x number of tickets then you wont be used again.

The only "risk" is the cost of the venue etc. - but with 40 boxers out there selling tickets, this is comparatively low compared to other businesses.

If that is your idea of promoting then it differs from mine.

I don't know how to respond to that drivel.

You clearly do not have any idea how the business of boxing works. I'm sure many promoters would love for it to be as you describe it,but it really isn't.

Without wishing to get caught up in the ongoing exchanges, just a few thoughts from my perspective:

I haven't ever seen a 20-bout show in the UK in the last few years, but if there has been one, I'm happy to stand corrected. Think there was an 18-bout one recently-ish in London, but that was an exception?

I don't agree that "the only risk is the cost of the venue" - the promoter has plenty of costs, such as fighters (as even if the local fighter is on a ticket deal, the opponent usually won’t be), venue hire, security, doctors, officials, ring hire and assembly, MC, sound system, board tax, programmes, posters, ring-card girls, and so on. And I’m sure there are other costs I’ve missed.

All the boxers on the show will not be out selling tickets, as a lot of opponents are away fighters precisely because they don't sell tickets. They will be on an agreed purse, without an obligation to sell a single ticket.

As for ticket deals, I know there is a traditional view that promoters should promote and that fighters should all get a set purse, without any of the risk of selling tickets, and just concentrate on fighting. However, it is the fighter’s choice to enter into a ticket deal. The Board don’t recognise ticket deal contracts (so won’t hear disputes about them), but every single applicant for a boxer’s licence is told about them in detail when they come before their local Area Council for a licence (our Area Council even gives them an example of what can happen and how a fighter could end up boxing for peanuts or nothing if he doesn’t sell the tickets, which has happened in reality). But I can see both sides.

[bripez]

Where did I say it was easy ? - if it was easy then we would all be doing it (and all be driving round in Bentleys to our mock tudor mansions).

If somebody makes the decision to become a boxing promoter, then surely it is not unreasonable that they actually promote ?

Look at some of the shows you see - the promoter hires out the venue and covers the medical costs and security etc. They then have a card of 20 fights (many involving boxers who are both signed to the promoter).

The promoter then says "right lads" you are on a commission only purse, and by the way if you don't sell x number of tickets then you wont be used again.

The only "risk" is the cost of the venue etc. - but with 40 boxers out there selling tickets, this is comparatively low compared to other businesses.

If that is your idea of promoting then it differs from mine.

I don't know how to respond to that drivel.

You clearly do not have any idea how the business of boxing works. I'm sure many promoters would love for it to be as you describe it,but it really isn't.

Without wishing to get caught up in the ongoing exchanges, just a few thoughts from my perspective:

I haven't ever seen a 20-bout show in the UK in the last few years, but if there has been one, I'm happy to stand corrected. Think there was an 18-bout one recently-ish in London, but that was an exception?

I don't agree that "the only risk is the cost of the venue" - the promoter has plenty of costs, such as fighters (as even if the local fighter is on a ticket deal, the opponent usually won’t be), venue hire, security, doctors, officials, ring hire and assembly, MC, sound system, board tax, programmes, posters, ring-card girls, and so on. And I’m sure there are other costs I’ve missed.

All the boxers on the show will not be out selling tickets, as a lot of opponents are away fighters precisely because they don't sell tickets. They will be on an agreed purse, without an obligation to sell a single ticket.

As for ticket deals, I know there is a traditional view that promoters should promote and that fighters should all get a set purse, without any of the risk of selling tickets, and just concentrate on fighting. However, it is the fighter’s choice to enter into a ticket deal. The Board don’t recognise ticket deal contracts (so won’t hear disputes about them), but every single applicant for a boxer’s licence is told about them in detail when they come before their local Area Council for a licence (our Area Council even gives them an example of what can happen and how a fighter could end up boxing for peanuts or nothing if he doesn’t sell the tickets, which has happened in reality). But I can see both sides.

In my example I used a round sum figure of 20 - without counting the number of bouts, I have seen a number of bills in London recently that have a lot of bouts scheduled and guessed at the figure without counting.

I also understand that Promoters often have 2 of their own boxers boxing each other on these shows - therefore getting the benefit of 2 local boxers to sell tickets (rather than one plus opponent) and also 2 lots of percentage of purse.

Again using round sum figures - if you have 20 boxers each selling 100 tickets at £100 a pop (or 40 boxers each selling 50 etc.) then that is £80k

Admittedly I don't know the costs of venue hire et. etc. but I bet that the promoters wouldn't do it if they weren't turning a profit.

I also disagree about the boxers don't have to agree to a ticket deal - I understand what you are saying, however if that is the only deal on offer then the boxer has Hobsons choice.

Your post also highlights another inadequacy of the BBBofC. If they don't recognise such deals, then surely they should not sanction fights that are agreed on this basis (how can they sanction fights that agreed to terms that they don't recognise ? - it doesn't make sense, other than to give them a cop out whenever something goes wrong they have an excuse to not get involved).

Just a quick question - when you say the away boxer gets an agreed purse, what happens if the bout is cancelled for some reason ? - does the away boxer still get paid ?

If not, then this helps the promoters business model - eg. if the home boxer doesn't sell a minimum number of tickets to cover the opponents purse then they could just pull the fight and avoid losses.

[Parson Cross]

The true reason Ive been so quiet on here Bripez is because the discussions are all heading downhill.
Let me just ask you this - what work does a Music Promoter of an average act do ? Any different to what a boxing Promoter does for an average boxer ? No.
Your reply is exactly what I was referring to when I originally posted. Allegedly I'm inferring that I know more.
Wake Up works in boxing and I've done a bit.
There are numerous posters on here who know enough to do the maths and who recognise the work that grass roots Promoters do.
Oh and don't think it's just the small hall Promoters that do ticket deals - you'd be shocked.

[manno]

SMALL hall promoter=thankless task

[Parson Cross]

You know it Manno.

[spudder56]

I have on a few occasions seen the following variation of a ticket deal contract a fight is announced on a show the promotor then goes round to the home fighters manager and collects £500 or in some cases £800 off the manager and in return gives him 100 £30 or in some cases £40 tickets the manager then has to guarantee to pay the away fighter his purse of say £1100 and then whatever he and the boxer sells is his to split between them so basically the promotor carnt lose money as he has been paid up front to cover his expenses etc and as an added bonus he has any walk up revenue for himself I have seen quite a few show run along these lines say with 8 fights on the bill the promotor doesn't actually pay one boxer so he carnt lose I have seen boxers fight for nothing and still owe money to the opponent coz he is guaranteed his purse all because he hasn't sold the tickets beleive me this does and has happened

[REEVE]

Before I turned over two of my gym mate where on a ticket deal with a local "promoter" one ended up boxing for £0 the other got just over £100...I thought fornicate that I'd never box at home - don't get me wrong I love the sport but eotd this is professional boxing - if your getting nowt you may aswell be an amature!

[JimJim2009]

British promoters haven't a clue. Today, in court, Shane Mosley - testifying in his legal battle with don king - has said he is leaving free tickets to his fight with mayorga on park benches so passers by can pick them up and hopefully turn up on fight night to boost the crowd. The arena has 16k seats and so far 2000 to 3000 tickets have been sold. The real money comes from PPV of course. Would be funny if a load of hobo's made it to ringside.

[bripez]

I have on a few occasions seen the following variation of a ticket deal contract a fight is announced on a show the promotor then goes round to the home fighters manager and collects £500 or in some cases £800 off the manager and in return gives him 100 £30 or in some cases £40 tickets the manager then has to guarantee to pay the away fighter his purse of say £1100 and then whatever he and the boxer sells is his to split between them so basically the promotor carnt lose money as he has been paid up front to cover his expenses etc and as an added bonus he has any walk up revenue for himself I have seen quite a few show run along these lines say with 8 fights on the bill the promotor doesn't actually pay one boxer so he carnt lose I have seen boxers fight for nothing and still owe money to the opponent coz he is guaranteed his purse all because he hasn't sold the tickets beleive me this does and has happened

I didn't reply to this yesterday as I was awaiting the response from the experts - not sure where they have gone ?

[jamesmcdonnell]

I have on a few occasions seen the following variation of a ticket deal contract a fight is announced on a show the promotor then goes round to the home fighters manager and collects £500 or in some cases £800 off the manager and in return gives him 100 £30 or in some cases £40 tickets the manager then has to guarantee to pay the away fighter his purse of say £1100 and then whatever he and the boxer sells is his to split between them so basically the promotor carnt lose money as he has been paid up front to cover his expenses etc and as an added bonus he has any walk up revenue for himself I have seen quite a few show run along these lines say with 8 fights on the bill the promotor doesn't actually pay one boxer so he carnt lose I have seen boxers fight for nothing and still owe money to the opponent coz he is guaranteed his purse all because he hasn't sold the tickets beleive me this does and has happened

I didn't reply to this yesterday as I was awaiting the response from the experts - not sure where they have gone ?

Not sure what more you're expecting people to say really? What is it you're looking for?

[spudder56]

I have on a few occasions seen the following variation of a ticket deal contract a fight is announced on a show the promotor then goes round to the home fighters manager and collects £500 or in some cases £800 off the manager and in return gives him 100 £30 or in some cases £40 tickets the manager then has to guarantee to pay the away fighter his purse of say £1100 and then whatever he and the boxer sells is his to split between them so basically the promotor carnt lose money as he has been paid up front to cover his expenses etc and as an added bonus he has any walk up revenue for himself I have seen quite a few show run along these lines say with 8 fights on the bill the promotor doesn't actually pay one boxer so he carnt lose I have seen boxers fight for nothing and still owe money to the opponent coz he is guaranteed his purse all because he hasn't sold the tickets beleive me this does and has happened

I didn't reply to this yesterday as I was awaiting the response from the experts - not sure where they have gone ?

who are the experts mate ? i am just stating facts this can and does happen on a regular basis now so think of this scenario-- a lot of boxers fans are undecided about buying tickets then decide to go on the night and pay on the door so basically straight into the promotors pocket it is possible for the boxer to only sell 35 or so tickets and end up fighting for nothing but actually have well over 100 of his fans in the crowd

[Dixonian]

I don't know how to respond to that drivel.

You clearly do not have any idea how the business of boxing works. I'm sure many promoters would love for it to be as you describe it,but it really isn't.

Without wishing to get caught up in the ongoing exchanges, just a few thoughts from my perspective:

I haven't ever seen a 20-bout show in the UK in the last few years, but if there has been one, I'm happy to stand corrected. Think there was an 18-bout one recently-ish in London, but that was an exception?

I don't agree that "the only risk is the cost of the venue" - the promoter has plenty of costs, such as fighters (as even if the local fighter is on a ticket deal, the opponent usually won’t be), venue hire, security, doctors, officials, ring hire and assembly, MC, sound system, board tax, programmes, posters, ring-card girls, and so on. And I’m sure there are other costs I’ve missed.

All the boxers on the show will not be out selling tickets, as a lot of opponents are away fighters precisely because they don't sell tickets. They will be on an agreed purse, without an obligation to sell a single ticket.

As for ticket deals, I know there is a traditional view that promoters should promote and that fighters should all get a set purse, without any of the risk of selling tickets, and just concentrate on fighting. However, it is the fighter’s choice to enter into a ticket deal. The Board don’t recognise ticket deal contracts (so won’t hear disputes about them), but every single applicant for a boxer’s licence is told about them in detail when they come before their local Area Council for a licence (our Area Council even gives them an example of what can happen and how a fighter could end up boxing for peanuts or nothing if he doesn’t sell the tickets, which has happened in reality). But I can see both sides.

In my example I used a round sum figure of 20 - without counting the number of bouts, I have seen a number of bills in London recently that have a lot of bouts scheduled and guessed at the figure without counting.

I also understand that Promoters often have 2 of their own boxers boxing each other on these shows - therefore getting the benefit of 2 local boxers to sell tickets (rather than one plus opponent) and also 2 lots of percentage of purse.

Again using round sum figures - if you have 20 boxers each selling 100 tickets at £100 a pop (or 40 boxers each selling 50 etc.) then that is £80k

Admittedly I don't know the costs of venue hire et. etc. but I bet that the promoters wouldn't do it if they weren't turning a profit.

I also disagree about the boxers don't have to agree to a ticket deal - I understand what you are saying, however if that is the only deal on offer then the boxer has Hobsons choice.

Your post also highlights another inadequacy of the BBBofC. If they don't recognise such deals, then surely they should not sanction fights that are agreed on this basis (how can they sanction fights that agreed to terms that they don't recognise ? - it doesn't make sense, other than to give them a cop out whenever something goes wrong they have an excuse to not get involved).

Just a quick question - when you say the away boxer gets an agreed purse, what happens if the bout is cancelled for some reason ? - does the away boxer still get paid ?

If not, then this helps the promoters business model - eg. if the home boxer doesn't sell a minimum number of tickets to cover the opponents purse then they could just pull the fight and avoid losses.

In my experience, it's rare to see two home fighters competing against each other on small hall shows. Even on big shows, often most fights are home against away fighter - apart from the bill toppers. Therefore, most bouts you've only got a single home fighter with the onus to sell tickets.

Regarding the Board not recognising ticket sale contracts - that doesn't mean they refuse to accept one-fight ticket sale arrangements - it's simply that they don't recognise any such contract over a period of time. In other words, if a promoter wants to tie a fighter to a contract - they have to agree a fixed payment, without an onus on the fighter doing the selling. Otherwise it's not a contract and the fighter can box on any show they like. They're basically freelancers.

At least that's how I understand it. I might be wrong.

[martinmrts]

I've often wondered why you usually have bills made up of ticket seller vs journeyman rather than ticket seller vs ticket seller. In the latter case the promoter would be spared the expense of 2 journeymen, and would offer an event that would be of interest to the casual boxing fan rather than just mates of the ticket seller. There is probably a good reason for this - anybody ?

[bripez]

I've often wondered why you usually have bills made up of ticket seller vs journeyman rather than ticket seller vs ticket seller. In the latter case the promoter would be spared the expense of 2 journeymen, and would offer an event that would be of interest to the casual boxing fan rather than just mates of the ticket seller. There is probably a good reason for this - anybody ?

I guess that the logic is that the 2 ticket sellers would be matched to keep them unbeaten (and in theory, to keep selling tickets).

If you matched 2 ticket sellers together then there is a possibility that the boxer who loses wouldn't sell as many tickets in the future - hence the position the sport is in domestically.

You can either gave one great night with lots of tickets sold, or more nit so great nights with almost as many tickets sold anyway.