Larry Holmes vs Mike Tyson

[man]

to me a prime tyson had an unheard
of combination of power and speed.
everyone in history would struggle
very hard with tyson in his early 20ies.

i have no idea what a fight between
ali and tyson, both age 22 would have
looked like. but i do think a taller man
with quick feed is not easy for mike.

having said that prime larry brings about
the same assets to the table and i do not
think mike walks through him.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Tyson is more suited for Holmes, Ali's Achilles was the hook while Larry's was the overhand right. Mike had a hook too, but his programmed combinations and inability to adapt would make it hard for him to deal with Ali's movement. Don't see that close. Holmes he'd have a moment somewhere on his way to defeat.

[Counter-puncher]

I see your point saad i did ponder momentarily whether to include frazier. In hindsight holmes"s knockout may be the more brutal.Equally they just cant be compared as both are one round beatings.

Counterpuncher , u may have a,point. Youtube is full of fools proclaiming tyson as the best fighter of all time.but i stand by my beleif in tyson beating holmes every time,unless i can be convinced otherwise

Fair enough, just remember whenever we see phrases like 'the answer to that is simply Tyson was that good', a complete tautology, or breathless ranting over his never seen before speed and power, for most of us I think the old eyes glaze over, oh another Tyson Ranter SPEED, POWER, RIGHT HOOK TO THE BODY RIGHT UPPERCUT TO THE HEAD BOOOOM!

[Counter-puncher]

I've got quite a hardon for Holmes so I tend to distrust my own opinion a little if I instantly pick him in a matchup against anyone decent.

[elmersalsa]

In my view, I don't think that the masses saw a peak prime Mike Tyson. Like the greats Muhammad Ali or Larry Holmes, or Roberto Duran or Sugar Ray Leonard, we saw their total primes. I think Tyson was getting there. He would've gotten there if trainer Kevin Rooney would've not gotten fired.

At 20, I don't see no heavyweight in history that was advanced as a fighter like Iron Mike. He was too devastating and phenomenal.

I don't think we ever saw prime Ali. Tyson was always the same.

Not in my view. After Kevin Rooney as his trainer, Iron Mike had no head movements, was much more easier to hit, and had no use of combinations. Plus, he didn't had the disciplined approach to the opposition. He believed his own hype.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yes, yes, the Rooney myth is well documented. I'm not surprised you're on board with that nonsense.

[man]

... Iron Mike had no head movements, was much more easier to hit, and had no use of combinations.

i think that happened after prison, when
he threw away all boxing and instead tried
pure anger and power only ... he became
terribly one dimensional.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He bobbed and weaved his way in. He was never some slick defender. It's amazing the stuff people want to believe about this guy. Kevin Rooney, cus and Allah could have all been in the camp and corner with Mike and buster Douglas would have whipped his ass. Holyfield beats him 100/100, anytime, anywhere.

[elmersalsa]

He bobbed and weaved his way in. He was never some slick defender. It's amazing the stuff people want to believe about this guy. Kevin Rooney, cus and Allah could have all been in the camp and corner with Mike and buster Douglas would have whipped his ass. Holyfield beats him 100/100, anytime, anywhere.

Not before 1988. The Real Deal and Buster got him at the right time.

[elmersalsa]

Iron Mike before 1988 had exceptional defense.

[elmersalsa]

... Iron Mike had no head movements, was much more easier to hit, and had no use of combinations.

i think that happened after prison, when
he threw away all boxing and instead tried
pure anger and power only ... he became
terribly one dimensional.

He was already one dimensional at the Frank Bruno fight. No great cornermen after 1988.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He bobbed and weaved his way in. He was never some slick defender. It's amazing the stuff people want to believe about this guy. Kevin Rooney, cus and Allah could have all been in the camp and corner with Mike and buster Douglas would have whipped his ass. Holyfield beats him 100/100, anytime, anywhere.

Not before 1988. The Real Deal and Buster got him at the right time.

[Bricks]

Teddy atlas insists that tyson was always a deeply insecure man and a conman.

These words are utterly true in the context of tysons career after 1991.

The 95-98 version was by tysons own admission an imposter .This was the weakest Tyson who beat men on past reputation alone.

Holyfield still had to headbutt like a billy goat to manipulate both results.he fought a man who no longer had any heart or hunger for the sport or his past skills or discipline in the ring.

The 85-91 tyson beats any version of holyfield or holmes.
The same 92 holmes being lauded here for a superior effort against holyfield was demolished by tyson when larry was 4 years fresher......that says a lot.

Boxbuzz you seem to forget the botha fight......even the shell of tyson overcame adversity in that fight to end it with one punch....in a fight it looked like he was on the verge of losing

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Evander and Mike were both far past their best. Evander was just more man and more skilled, like he always was. He'd bring out mikes insecurities in 88, 91, 96 or tomorrow.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I was going to mention the Botha fight. Mike was losing every round. Granted he basically tried to get out with a foul before the hail Mary, but it still counts.

[BoxBuzz]

I was going to mention the Botha fight. Mike was losing every round. Granted he basically tried to get out with a foul before the hail Mary, but it still counts.

Ok.....maybe I can go that far.......On one occasion, I can admit Tyson, finding himself pressed to his limits, actually pulls it out with a hail mary against Botha.

Botha

Botha.

So that does change the letter of what I was saying about Mike....but does it actually change the SPIRIT of what I'm trying to get across here?

I mean....it was Botha...........come to think of it, it may not have been PRIME BOTHA.

Now that would have been something. Pulling it out against the best of Botha. Who else could perform that feat?

But, ok....I know when to admit I'm wrong...... I do stand corrected.

I do think he was very very good, but his early run of wins was as dramatic as it was lacking in genuinely talented competition.

I also was as entertained by Mike as I have ever been by any fighter. He had a one of a kind explosive nature. I just think his hype is considerably more than his genuine greatness as a fighter.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

This dude has so many built in excuses from his minions. A washed up huge underdog that list one round has no chance in his more established prime? Never seen anything like it. Mike would laugh.

[man]

Holyfield still had to headbutt like a billy goat

i always felt mike tyson exaggerated this
big time and some people fell for it.

[man]

people want to believe about this guy. Kevin Rooney, cus and Allah could have all been in the camp and corner with Mike and buster Douglas would have whipped his ass. Holyfield beats him 100/100, anytime, anywhere.

agree on holy, disagree on buster. even
an out of focus tyson came close to ko
the latter, while he could not affect the
former at all.

[man]

Iron Mike before 1988 had exceptional defense.

no. he had an extremely fast offense
with a lot of upper body movement.
that might look like good defense, but
in my view it isn't.

[Bricks]

Evander and Mike were both far past their best. Evander was just more man and more skilled, like he always was. He'd bring out mikes insecurities in 88, 91, 96 or tomorrow.

A very good point.Evander was long gone too.
His hunger and determination never receded in his career, and those qualiries would beat any post 1991 Tyson.

However I"d respectfully still lean towards the diminished 1991 version winning a fight that year,although equally I can see,and Im guessing the overwhelming majority of reasoned observers can see a scenario where tyson is overcome in a battle of wills.

The 87-mid 88 version though with some psychological support in rooney,jacobs and lott I personally can see winning in a variety of ways.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

people want to believe about this guy. Kevin Rooney, cus and Allah could have all been in the camp and corner with Mike and buster Douglas would have whipped his ass. Holyfield beats him 100/100, anytime, anywhere.

agree on holy, disagree on buster. even
an out of focus tyson came close to ko
the latter, while he could not affect the
former at all.

Just that buster, no Tyson beats him. Mike beats any other version.

[elmersalsa]

Iron Mike before 1988 had exceptional defense.

no. he had an extremely fast offense
with a lot of upper body movement.
that might look like good defense, but
in my view it isn't.

He had exceptional defense. Maybe we see different Iron Mikes

[elmersalsa]

I respect the Real Deal. But on his best night, he doesn't beat Iron Mike, circa 1985-88.

Before 1988, Holyfield was not as bulked as when he beat Iron Mike in 1996. He was faster and accurate puncher. But, in the 80s, Tyson was someone that could move his head and had a rear combination of speed and power never seen before. at that young age. He was advanced for a 20 year old. Put any twenty year old version of any heavyweight before or after him, and he would have destroyed him quick.

By 1989, Tyso had no head movements nor rhythm. One punch at a time, had no poise, and was winning his fights by intimidating tactics.

By 1991, I was betting on The Real Deal. I think Holyfield would've won that night. But, before 1989? It's all Iron Mikes.

[gilgamesh]

I think both at their best Holyfield would've always beaten Tyson. That being said if they'd fought in 1987 or 1988 both being where they were in their careers at that time I figure Mike might've took it mainly because Holyfield hadn't yet put on that extra muscle. I figure he'd need that physical strength to push Mike back and give him as much hell as he did on the inside.

I wish we could've see Mike vs Holyfield in '89 or '90 though