jas80s wrote:I have to say, after reading this discussion, I wanted to watch a little of Henry Armstrong again as, somewhat paradoxically, he is one of my favorite fighters. But, truth be told, while I greatly admire fighters of the past, I don't watch a ton of old fights, maybe I am just too used to our HD world and I have a hard time with the grainy images...
Anyway, here is what I saw in his fight with Barney Ross at 147 pounds. Incidentally, Armstrong gave away 8 and a half pounds to Ross in the fight. Like many great inside fighters, his defense was actually quite good, but it was subtle. He was crouched down, had his chin tucked behind his left shoulder, he moved his head repeatedly, and he had his right glove tucked in under his chin to guard against uppercuts. Ross was a hall of famer and an accurate puncher and he missed most of his punches. Armstrong crowded you to prevent you from jabbing, he stayed low to guard against crosses, and he employed a crab defense to guard against uppercuts, and he repeatedly ducked under left hooks. Was he hittable? Sure somewhat, so was Hagler at times, and he was every bit as hard to hit (harder if you ask me) than Manny Pacquiao, for example. But, he didn't make it easy by any stretch and he did so as part of his overall plan of pushing a pace he knew his opponents could not sustain for long fights. I'm no expert, but I have to say, I was actually pretty impressed by the defensive technique of a guy who was a devastating offensive fighter.
Incidentally, hilarious that the expert brings up Valero while talking about Hank's poor defense. Edwin's chin wasn't tucked at all, as soon as he fought someone he was going down.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
You are no boxing expert mate. who told you that? Over the years I put in many thousands of hours of research into boxing, watching and reading about fighters of the past, watching and reading about fighters of my own era.
I suggest you do the same rather than just make assumptions based on a totally bald reading of someone's fight stats. Half of the records on the old timers records aren't even complete, a lot of their opponents records weren't well kept, and in the real world it's not as simple as it looks. If you can't see how good Armstrong was, or how amazing his record is, then you really don't know a 10th of what you think you know.
If Jones had had to fight 5-6 times a month, he'd have had many more losses, so would Mayweather, so would anyone fighting in that era. These guys fought with constant injuries, at short notice against unknown opponents. It was a much tougher sport.
The majority of Armstrong's losses came early in his career and late on, same with SRR.
Armstrong had an all action style, that doesn't mean he had zero defence. He was so successful because he was able to fight and an unbelievable pace round after round, was tough, and could hit, he had every punch in the book too, and was tough to dissuade. You don't have to be a defensive wizard to be a great fighter.
Bear in mind that fighters of the past had to put on exciting shows, they couldn't really afford dull fights as nobody wanted to watch them.
i am not taking away that he was no good, he was real good. but beatable by todays standards, cause of the reasons i wrote down.
Everyone is beatable, your statement means nothing.
Armstrong fought in an era crammed with talent under very difficult conditions. He wasn't some Olympic golden boy with a multi million contract when he turned pro.
He'd have risen to the top in any era, sure, might have lost a few with his style, but so what? Having an unbeaten record is one of the most overrated things people focus on.
thats true, unbeaten is overrated, sven ottke ...i am just not making armstrong a top 4 p4p ever, who most people have him, thats all, he was just to open, but still a great boxer.
Last edited by Chepppaaa on 25 May 2016, 06:37, edited 1 time in total.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:A young Ray Robinson didn't stop him, yet Valero would have crushed him.....oh deary me.
Don't get too nostalgic... Some have Robinson ranked as the number one middleweight of all time, but his record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Gennady Golovkin's record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.. before you start hammering Golovkin's competition remember the top middleweight have ducked him for 6 years because he's a great fighter. SRR's Title Defense losses came to guys with a lot of losses who were very poor boxers, or in Turpin's case, a very chinny guy. Also remember that SRR lost to Ralph Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses, but completely dominated Robinson.. Robinson padded his record unbelievably. Before his 1st Middleweight Title Defense (which he lost) Robinson fought 8 record padders in 4 months. Robinson was a great fighter. I'm not saying this to knock SRR, but to point out that revered greats of the past were just as flawed as today's fighters. But their vulnerability is often glossed over until they walk on water.
Valero was undefeated and untied: 27-0 with 27 KO wins...Including all 8 World Title Fights... It's hard to do better than that.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:A young Ray Robinson didn't stop him, yet Valero would have crushed him.....oh deary me.
Don't get too nostalgic... Some have Robinson ranked as the number one middleweight of all time, but his record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Gennady Golovkin's record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.. before you start hammering Golovkin's competition remember the top middleweight have ducked him for 6 years because he's a great fighter. SRR's Title Defense losses came to guys with a lot of losses who were very poor boxers, or in Turpin's case, a very chinny guy. Also remember that SRR lost to Ralph Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses, but completely dominated Robinson.. Robinson padded his record unbelievably. Before his 1st Middleweight Title Defense (which he lost) Robinson fought 8 record padders in 4 months. Robinson was a great fighter. I'm not saying this to knock SRR, but to point out that revered greats of the past were just as flawed as today's fighters. But their vulnerability is often glossed over until they walk on water.
Valero was undefeated and untied: 27-0 with 27 KO wins...Including all 8 World Title Fights... It's hard to do better than that.
Robinson fought Armstrong at WW, so what's the relevance of Robinson's career MW?
Where am I hammering Golovkin - what are you on about?
jamesmcdonnell wrote:A young Ray Robinson didn't stop him, yet Valero would have crushed him.....oh deary me.
Don't get too nostalgic... Some have Robinson ranked as the number one middleweight of all time, but his record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Gennady Golovkin's record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.. before you start hammering Golovkin's competition remember the top middleweight have ducked him for 6 years because he's a great fighter. SRR's Title Defense losses came to guys with a lot of losses who were very poor boxers, or in Turpin's case, a very chinny guy. Also remember that SRR lost to Ralph Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses, but completely dominated Robinson.. Robinson padded his record unbelievably. Before his 1st Middleweight Title Defense (which he lost) Robinson fought 8 record padders in 4 months. Robinson was a great fighter. I'm not saying this to knock SRR, but to point out that revered greats of the past were just as flawed as today's fighters. But their vulnerability is often glossed over until they walk on water.
Valero was undefeated and untied: 27-0 with 27 KO wins...Including all 8 World Title Fights... It's hard to do better than that.
Robinson fought Armstrong at WW, so what's the relevance of Robinson's career MW?
Where am I hammering Golovkin - what are you on about?
he is addicted to ggg, just like brut was addicted to floyd.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Robinson fought Armstrong at WW, so what's the relevance of Robinson's career MW? Where am I hammering Golovkin - what are you on about?
I'm talking to the reader too. Some of them hammer Golovkin. Many old timers (I go way back myself but I'm not generationally biased) have Robinson as the best ATG Middleweight. They claim if GGG fought 20 times a year like Robinson did he'd have as many losses as SRR did. I point out that they can't dig up appropriate opponents for Golovkin with him fighting 2 to 4 times. His last opponent was 18-0 and beat a former World Champion but couldn't last 2 rounds with Triple-G. If GGG fought so often he'd be fighting the same caliber guys SRR did, some of them with more losses than wins. He'd crush them all. During Robinson's WW career he got floored hard by Artie Lavine and Tommy Bell, guys who couldn't box very well. SRR also got floored a few times in his MW career if you think that's relevant. GGG has never been floored in his life. Tyson, the great fighting machine, got knocked out 5 times and knocked down at least 4 times. Mike was easy to hit and not a great boxer. I still have him as an ATG, but certainly not the greatest.
...i am just not making armstrong a top 4 p4p ever, who most people have him, thats all, he was just to open, but still a great boxer.