jamesmcdonnell wrote:As I said, what about the first fight? Duran came into that fight properly prepared and totally outpsyched leonard, it's funny how people often seem to overlook that fight and focus instead on the horribly out of condition version Leonard beat.
At lightweight at his best, nobody ever ran rings around Duran. It would have been an even fight, and a pick em.
i know many people who, like myself, consider leonard's decision to fight duran's fight in 1st match a mistake & believe that if he had used his speed & skills more (like he did in 2nd) he would have outointed duran then...it was a pretty close fight anyway, even with ray fighting duran's fight!!!
of course 135 was duran's best & natural weight, but i think either sweetpea or PBF would give him major problems if not outpoint him as well...
Please put the American media myths to rest.
Watch the tape and you’ll see Leonard had no choice but to fight Duran's fight in 1st match.
Roberto controlled the tempo and never gave Ray any room.
The second fight was not a blowout nor should it have been recorded a TKO.
(Leonard later bragged on a talk show that he knocked him out.)
Yes he did quit but he never uttered the word no mas in the 2nd fight; the referee did.
He was out of shape, diarrheic and frustrated with all the holding, spinning & running
and felt the referee was letting Sugar get away with it.
Although he deserved a rematch and offered to fight for free,
Leonard would not give him one till 9 years later when Roberto was 38.
As much as I admire Ray Leonard's skills, which are undeniable, he was very shrewd about when he chose to face people.
For instance.
It was known Tommy Hearns was having desperate trouble making weight before their first fight, even then Leonard came very close to coming unstuck, no shame in that Tommy was a great fighter.
Fighting Duran was the one time he got it wrong, Duran intimidated and riled him at every press conference and totally bullied him into fighting the wrong fight, something that Leonard made sure would not happen in the 2nd. Leonard heard that Duran had balooned to over 200 lbs after his victory, and so told his people to instruct Duran's people that he would fight a rematch, but only within 6 weeks I think it was of the initial call.
Duran knew this was a huge money fight, and foolishly accepted, he was taking laxatives and diuretics to make weight and was on the verge of crapping himself during the fight. A mixture of frustration at Leonard's tactics, and being too drained to do anything about them prompted him to call it a day.
Leonard made sure that he never let Duran near him again until he was old, fat and out of shape.
Leonard also waited until Hagler was on the slide before giving him a fight, and also made sure he got the biggest ring possible and the fight stipulated for 12 rounds rather than 15, had it been a 15 round fight in a 16 foot ring, I don't think he'd have seen the end of the fight as Hagler was as strong as a bull at the end.
Tommy Hearns didn't get a rematch until he too was well past it 8 years after their first fight, and he'd come off a devastating KO loss to Barkley, but Hearns brought the fight to Leonard and probably should have won the decision.
Leonard made sure there was never a rematch with Hagler, but telling Hagler he would only fight him if he apologised and admitted that he had lost the fight, which he knew damned well would never ever happen. In a rematch I would have favoured Hagler to knock him out.
don't forget Hilmer was 3-0 against Duran including that 8th round K.O. and that was while Duran was still a good fighter. He was set back with a 11th round ko loss for the Jr. Welter championship by Costa Zoo, but that was in the twilight of his career and shouldn't be used as an arguement against his greatness.
very true, it's odd how people choose to ignore these accomplishments. hilmer proved himself to be to duran as ezzard charles was to archie moore. completely dominant, yet the opponent he beats gets all the press.
..mcdonnell...very good post on leonard. he knew he had the edge in box office value so his opponents were willing to make his concessions. very smart guy.
blue....if leonard/duran II wasn't a tko, what was it? bout stopped because of near case of the runs?
Blue wrote:Please put the American media myths to rest.
Watch the tape and you’ll see Leonard had no choice but to fight Duran's fight in 1st match.
Roberto controlled the tempo and never gave Ray any room.
The second fight was not a blowout nor should it have been recorded a TKO.
(Leonard later bragged on a talk show that he knocked him out.)
Yes he did quit but he never uttered the word no mas in the 2nd fight; the referee did.
He was out of shape, diarrheic and frustrated with all the holding, spinning & running
and felt the referee was letting Sugar get away with it.
Although he deserved a rematch and offered to fight for free,
Leonard would not give him one till 9 years later when Roberto was 38.
Exactly. Ray always played it safe. He made Hearns wait 8 years for a rematch, too. And wouldn't touch a prime Hagler.
Jaclem wrote:...i don't know that he was the greatest....i don't think any one fighter can be so positivley identified in this division which has produced to much tlaent for so many years...but my all-time favorite lightweight is ike williams...whom i think ..when at his best..would have to be considered among those at the top of the list.
i could see duran, whitaker, mayweather, williams & benny leonard as top 5...
In a head-to-head you could put Mayweather. In terms of accomplishments you wouldn't even put him in the same room with Duran, Leonard and Gans.
Duran would have done 10 no mas' fighting Whittaker!!!!!!!!
Yeah right. He fought plenty of cuties as lightweight. None as great as Whitaker, but still good fighters. They never made him "no mas", so why would Whitaker(who btw, is a favorite of mine)?
Jaclem wrote:..mcdonnell...very good post on leonard. he knew he had the edge in box office value so his opponents were willing to make his concessions. very smart guy.
blue....if leonard/duran II wasn't a tko, what was it? bout stopped because of near case of the runs?
i think it was more of a case of duran knowing he was not going to win the fight so he got out. also duran was being embarrased by leonards taunting making duran look so foolish that the crowd was laughing at duran.
To even mention Pernell Whitaker in the top 10 lightweights ever is a joke. He was pitty pat run away south paw........great fighters at least can punch.
ringsider wrote:To even mention Pernell Whitaker in the top 10 lightweights ever is a joke. He was pitty pat run away south paw........great fighters at least can punch.
No my friend, he stood right in front of his opposition and STILL made them miss!
Great fighters at least can punch? Well, I guess we can pull Billy Conn's and Kid Gavilan's busts out of the hall of fame as neither had much of a punch. In fact, now that I think of it, pull out Tommy Loughran and Maxie Rosenbloom as well.
ringsider wrote:To even mention Pernell Whitaker in the top 10 lightweights ever is a joke. He was pitty pat run away south paw........great fighters at least can punch.
As much as I admire Ray Leonard's skills, which are undeniable, he was very shrewd about when he chose to face people.
For instance.
It was known Tommy Hearns was having desperate trouble making weight before their first fight, even then Leonard came very close to coming unstuck, no shame in that Tommy was a great fighter.
Fighting Duran was the one time he got it wrong, Duran intimidated and riled him at every press conference and totally bullied him into fighting the wrong fight, something that Leonard made sure would not happen in the 2nd. Leonard heard that Duran had balooned to over 200 lbs after his victory, and so told his people to instruct Duran's people that he would fight a rematch, but only within 6 weeks I think it was of the initial call.
Duran knew this was a huge money fight, and foolishly accepted, he was taking laxatives and diuretics to make weight and was on the verge of crapping himself during the fight. A mixture of frustration at Leonard's tactics, and being too drained to do anything about them prompted him to call it a day.
Leonard made sure that he never let Duran near him again until he was old, fat and out of shape.
Leonard also waited until Hagler was on the slide before giving him a fight, and also made sure he got the biggest ring possible and the fight stipulated for 12 rounds rather than 15, had it been a 15 round fight in a 16 foot ring, I don't think he'd have seen the end of the fight as Hagler was as strong as a bull at the end.
Tommy Hearns didn't get a rematch until he too was well past it 8 years after their first fight, and he'd come off a devastating KO loss to Barkley, but Hearns brought the fight to Leonard and probably should have won the decision.
Leonard made sure there was never a rematch with Hagler, but telling Hagler he would only fight him if he apologised and admitted that he had lost the fight, which he knew damned well would never ever happen. In a rematch I would have favoured Hagler to knock him out.
Agree with the sentiment of this post.
Ray was very clever in selecting opponents and marketing himself. It was after Duran went 15 with Hagler that Ray decided to make a comeback and got dropped by Howard. He realised that Marvin was beatable and fancied his chances.
People bang on about Ray's change of styles in the second fight but he'd have won that fight even if he'd gone toe-to-toe with Duran.
i agree ray was careful when to fight certain fighters in his career but he still beat benitez and hearns who were great welters and fought duran twice.at welter i don't think he avoided anyone.
dalek wrote:i agree ray was careful when to fight certain fighters in his career but he still beat benitez and hearns who were great welters and fought duran twice.at welter i don't think he avoided anyone.
He didn't avoid anyone I totally agree. In the early 1980s everyone wanted to see Ray rematch Hearns and Duran. They would have been great fights.
ringsider wrote:To even mention Pernell Whitaker in the top 10 lightweights ever is a joke. He was pitty pat run away south paw........great fighters at least can punch.
So I suppose you think that Muhammad Ali wasn't a great fighter?
I like Whitaker but a peak Duran would just be too strong for him... I think Joe Brown deserves to be in the top 10... probably the most underrated of the greats, also Carlos Oritiz is top ten material imo...
Blue wrote:Please put the American media myths to rest.
Watch the tape and you’ll see Leonard had no choice but to fight Duran's fight in 1st match.
Roberto controlled the tempo and never gave Ray any room.
The second fight was not a blowout nor should it have been recorded a TKO.
(Leonard later bragged on a talk show that he knocked him out.)
Yes he did quit but he never uttered the word no mas in the 2nd fight; the referee did.
He was out of shape, diarrheic and frustrated with all the holding, spinning & running
and felt the referee was letting Sugar get away with it.
Although he deserved a rematch and offered to fight for free,
Leonard would not give him one till 9 years later when Roberto was 38.
Exactly. Ray always played it safe. He made Hearns wait 8 years for a rematch, too. And wouldn't touch a prime Hagler.
It's a shame that SRL did those things, because he was better than that.
He had everything as a fighter & would probably have prevailed, but we will never know.
