lillywhite14 wrote:How can losing to Nathan Cleverly be a considerably better result than losing to Wlad?
Losing to Wlad eclipses anything Bellew has done
John Ruiz wat too low. In fact, you've favoured Bellew here big time.
Bellew arguably beat Cleverly in their first fight. Wladimir arguably won every round against Haye.
John Ruiz hadn't won a world title fight in over 5 years & 4 months before the Haye fight.
But how does losing in a world title fight to a guy who is one of the heavyweight longest reigning champions below both ovil wins considering they were domestic level?
lillywhite14 wrote:How can losing to Nathan Cleverly be a considerably better result than losing to Wlad?
Losing to Wlad eclipses anything Bellew has done
John Ruiz wat too low. In fact, you've favoured Bellew here big time.
Bellew arguably beat Cleverly in their first fight. Wladimir arguably won every round against Haye.
John Ruiz hadn't won a world title fight in over 5 years & 4 months before the Haye fight.
Do you think this current version of bellew could have beaten Ruiz that night? I don't.
lillywhite14 wrote:How can losing to Nathan Cleverly be a considerably better result than losing to Wlad?
Losing to Wlad eclipses anything Bellew has done
John Ruiz wat too low. In fact, you've favoured Bellew here big time.
Bellew arguably beat Cleverly in their first fight. Wladimir arguably won every round against Haye.
John Ruiz hadn't won a world title fight in over 5 years & 4 months before the Haye fight.
Do you think this current version of bellew could have beaten Ruiz that night? I don't.
As much as i dislike bellew he cant half punch,i think ruiz would of been made for bellew,he would tea off on ruiz and k.o him eventually,just my opinion
nitro5912 wrote:But how does losing in a world title fight to a guy who is one of the heavyweight longest reigning champions below both ovil wins considering they were domestic level?
You have favoured bellew way to high.
Haye got dominated.
Generally losing almost every round against a fighter is not considered to be a good result at all.
Haye's loss to Wladimir was not impressive.
Last edited by Horse on 28 Oct 2016, 05:45, edited 2 times in total.
Can't blame Bellew for trying to get the Haye fight. His options are
Briedis-Mandatory- Not great money against a real dangerous banger. Hard to sell as Briedis isn't the biggest name.
Lebedev-Unification- Money would be good but risky fight against IMO the best in the division. Also more than likely he has to travel to Russia.
Usyk-Unification- Money wouldn't be the greatest against the most technically skilled CW as he hadn't yet crossed over. Again a tough fight for Bellew.
Haye- Huge money, Huge exposure against a dangerous opponent who has serious question marks about his fitness.
Absolute No brainier for Bellew to chase Haye and good for him if he can get the catchweight in as it favours him not Haye.
Horse wrote:Bellew arguably beat Cleverly in their first fight. Wladimir arguably won every round against Haye.
John Ruiz hadn't won a world title fight in over 5 years & 4 months before the Haye fight.
Do you think this current version of bellew could have beaten Ruiz that night? I don't.
As much as i dislike bellew he cant half punch,i think ruiz would of been made for bellew,he would tea off on ruiz and k.o him eventually,just my opinion
He is an effective puncher at cruiserweight however, not against the giants of the heavyweight division.
I don't see him stopping Ruiz at all, Ruiz had proven to be durable throughout his career, and it took a series of sustained barrages from Haye before Ruiz was stopped. Ruiz was solid if unexceptional at heavyweight, and despite being at the tail end of his career, a stoppage by Haye was still a significant result, as only a prime Tua managed it before.
Bellew has no formbook at heavyweight as a pro, and has done nothing to suggest he has the same punchpower as Haye has, or had, Haye's annihilation of Chisora proved he was amongst the best of them when it came to one punch power at HW.
Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Finn wrote:
Do you think this current version of bellew could have beaten Ruiz that night? I don't.
As much as i dislike bellew he cant half punch,i think ruiz would of been made for bellew,he would tea off on ruiz and k.o him eventually,just my opinion
He is an effective puncher at cruiserweight however, not against the giants of the heavyweight division.
I don't see him stopping Ruiz at all, Ruiz had proven to be durable throughout his career, and it took a series of sustained barrages from Haye before Ruiz was stopped. Ruiz was solid if unexceptional at heavyweight, and despite being at the tail end of his career, a stoppage by Haye was still a significant result, as only a prime Tua managed it before.
Bellew has no formbook at heavyweight as a pro, and has done nothing to suggest he has the same punchpower as Haye has, or had, Haye's annihilation of Chisora proved he was amongst the best of them when it came to one punch power at HW.
David haye,imo,is the only one punch knock out artist in the heavy weights atm,all the rest have to use a combination of fast heavy shots were as haye can whip u with one shot and ur on ur back lookin up at lights. Regarding bellew vs ruiz its just my opinion,i just think he would break him down
Autobarn wrote:Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Haye is nothing if not a shrewd operator. Enzo was a massive puncher, harder hitting than Bellew, though perhaps not as sturdy, although we've yet to see Bellew take any shots flush from a hellacious puncher that I can recall.
Haye knows his own body, people keep forgetting he is himself a blown up cruiser, that muscle will atrophy fast, all haye has to do is reduce his calorie intake, and do lots of cardio, and it will melt away quicker than a solero ice-lolly in death valley.
Finn wrote:
Do you think this current version of bellew could have beaten Ruiz that night? I don't.
As much as i dislike bellew he cant half punch,i think ruiz would of been made for bellew,he would tea off on ruiz and k.o him eventually,just my opinion
He is an effective puncher at cruiserweight however, not against the giants of the heavyweight division.
I don't see him stopping Ruiz at all, Ruiz had proven to be durable throughout his career, and it took a series of sustained barrages from Haye before Ruiz was stopped. Ruiz was solid if unexceptional at heavyweight, and despite being at the tail end of his career, a stoppage by Haye was still a significant result, as only a prime Tua managed it before.
Bellew has no formbook at heavyweight as a pro, and has done nothing to suggest he has the same punchpower as Haye has, or had, Haye's annihilation of Chisora proved he was amongst the best of them when it came to one punch power at HW.
No definitive answers here, all just speculation of course.
Autobarn wrote:Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Yes, I agree, most of the others are slow, Wilder is quicker, but he telegraphs his shots, and he loses power due to his poor technique also.
Haye's shots often land without the fighter seeing them, which more often than not is what generates one punch knockouts, that or catching a fighter as he's throwing his own, and is therefore out of position to brace himself, ride the shot, or evade it.
nitro5912 wrote:But why does he want to chase the biggest money fight instead of facing cruisers?
To make the most money and have the biggest fight.
nitro5912 wrote:If he was as good as he says he would be fighting bredis, uysk, lebedev then chasing a cash in fight.
Why would he?
nitro5912 wrote:He knows he fights one of them and gets beaten easily hye will laugh at him.
So he should fight Haye first then?
Its only a big fight to clowns, I don't know anyone who thinks bellew has a remote chance of winning including casuals who though brook would win v GGG.
No he shouldn't fight haye first, he should set out to prove himself the best at his weight before cashing in. But he won't because like all sports its £££ before glory.
I'll be honest, if I made my living by being punched in the head, I would pick the fight that made me the most money, regardless of the grief I would get from people I don't know on an internet forum.
Well, let's hope that this novelty fight can deliver good two way action, even if it's not likely to most.
Maybe Haye will have flu on the night. Then again, I hoped Golovkin would be drained, full of cold, less than 100% for Brook. Golovkin wasn't right that night, whatever it was, and he still did him in five.
If it is a mismatch, or a farce that ends with a Haye jab, maybe It will be one weight mismatch too many involving uk fighters.
Autobarn wrote:Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Haye is nothing if not a shrewd operator. Enzo was a massive puncher, harder hitting than Bellew, though perhaps not as sturdy, although we've yet to see Bellew take any shots flush from a hellacious puncher that I can recall.
Haye knows his own body, people keep forgetting he is himself a blown up cruiser, that muscle will atrophy fast, all haye has to do is reduce his calorie intake, and do lots of cardio, and it will melt away quicker than a solero ice-lolly in death valley.
This fight will only happen at HW... No point even talking about a catch weight fight as it simply won't happen.
It's easy money for Haye but he won't delay his heavyweight ambitions potentially ruining them by dropping weight!
The relevant question is , how much weight should bellew put on?
I say not that much as it won't help him in terms of speed or endurance ( not that it goes beyond 6 anyway) .
Horse wrote:To make the most money and have the biggest fight.
Why would he?
So he should fight Haye first then?
Its only a big fight to clowns, I don't know anyone who thinks bellew has a remote chance of winning including casuals who though brook would win v GGG.
No he shouldn't fight haye first, he should set out to prove himself the best at his weight before cashing in. But he won't because like all sports its £££ before glory.
I'll be honest, if I made my living by being punched in the head, I would pick the fight that made me the most money, regardless of the grief I would get from people I don't know on an internet forum.
Me too; but then I wouldn't get upset about criticism directed at me - to be fair to Haye, I don't think he gives a rat's arse what anybody says. I've not seem him moaning about the opprobrium on the likes of here or elsewhere.
It is prizefighting, I don't mind the odd matchup like this, but there's not enough quality matchups between the elite level fighters, in the same weight classes in their prime to balance it out.
lillywhite14 wrote:How can losing to Nathan Cleverly be a considerably better result than losing to Wlad?
Losing to Wlad eclipses anything Bellew has done
John Ruiz wat too low. In fact, you've favoured Bellew here big time.
Bellew arguably beat Cleverly in their first fight. Wladimir arguably won every round against Haye.
John Ruiz hadn't won a world title fight in over 5 years & 4 months before the Haye fight.
Wladimir was almost as gun shy as Haye that night. "arguably" all he did was deserve to lose a bit less than Haye did. Terrible fight and Wlads performance gets overlooked due to Haye's pre-fight chat and lack of commitment during the fight.
Talk about levels - Wlad was the main man at his weight and had been for yonks. Clev was a glorified European level fighter who held a paper title.
Ruiz 'arguably' beat Valuev himself two fights before he fought Haye. He was also ( and this is killing me typing this ) a 3-time "world champion" if we are going to get technical over it.
He's a better win than Bellew's best win on that list. If Makabu is Bellew's best win, then his resume is piss weak.
Autobarn wrote:Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Haye is nothing if not a shrewd operator. Enzo was a massive puncher, harder hitting than Bellew, though perhaps not as sturdy, although we've yet to see Bellew take any shots flush from a hellacious puncher that I can recall.
Haye knows his own body, people keep forgetting he is himself a blown up cruiser, that muscle will atrophy fast, all haye has to do is reduce his calorie intake, and do lots of cardio, and it will melt away quicker than a solero ice-lolly in death valley.
I think that the Enzo back then would have taken the current Bellew's head clean off his shoulders.
Haye done them up a kipper. Apparently giving up all the advantages just to get the fight made. Enzo had the big promoter and the show was set up purely for him ( I was there, and even though it was n London the whole build up was Welsh biased, Tom Jones tracks blaring pre-fight etc )
Haye weighing in whilst drinking a protein shake killed any chance Enzo had in that one. Haye was clearly a level above Enzo and smashed him to bits.
Bellew's only chance of a result is if Haye is a shell of who he was, which is possible I guess. If he is as good as he was, Bellew doesn't last 6 minutes.
lillywhite14 wrote:Wladimir was almost as gun shy as Haye that night. "arguably" all he did was deserve to lose a bit less than Haye did. Terrible fight and Wlads performance gets overlooked due to Haye's pre-fight chat and lack of commitment during the fight.
Does anyone else agree with this absolute nonsense?
lillywhite14 wrote:Talk about levels - Wlad was the main man at his weight and had been for yonks. Clev was a glorified European level fighter who held a paper title.
Cleverly was a legitimately ranked top 10 fighter in the world.
lillywhite14 wrote:Ruiz 'arguably' beat Valuev himself two fights before he fought Haye. He was also ( and this is killing me typing this ) a 3-time "world champion" if we are going to get technical over it.
He's a better win than Bellew's best win on that list. If Makabu is Bellew's best win, then his resume is piss weak.
Ruiz lost to Valuev widely in my opinion.
Haye's win against old man Ruiz is not better than Bellew's best win.
Autobarn wrote:Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Haye is nothing if not a shrewd operator. Enzo was a massive puncher, harder hitting than Bellew, though perhaps not as sturdy, although we've yet to see Bellew take any shots flush from a hellacious puncher that I can recall.
Haye knows his own body, people keep forgetting he is himself a blown up cruiser, that muscle will atrophy fast, all haye has to do is reduce his calorie intake, and do lots of cardio, and it will melt away quicker than a solero ice-lolly in death valley.
I think that the Enzo back then would have taken the current Bellew's head clean off his shoulders.
Haye done them up a kipper. Apparently giving up all the advantages just to get the fight made. Enzo had the big promoter and the show was set up purely for him ( I was there, and even though it was n London the whole build up was Welsh biased, Tom Jones tracks blaring pre-fight etc ) Haye weighing in whilst drinking a protein shake killed any chance Enzo had in that one. Haye was clearly a level above Enzo and smashed him to bits.
Bellew's only chance of a result is if Haye is a shell of who he was, which is possible I guess. If he is as good as he was, Bellew doesn't last 6 minutes.
Yes, Haye made a big thing of that. In the months before he insisted he was now a heavyweight and would have too much difficulty making cruiser again. But he was in great shape, manhandled Enzo in close and bashed him up in crude but exciting fashion.
Autobarn wrote:Surely Bellew and Hearn think Haye - maybe waning due to inactivity and terrible competition - will be weak losing the 20 or so pounds. Enough of an advantage for them.
But that is kind of what Enzo Mac and FW thought - regarding weight - when Haye was having his last fight at cruiserweight for the all UK unification. And Enzo was no much for his size and power. While Enzo was throwing nice feints, Haye was smashing him up.
Haye is nothing if not a shrewd operator. Enzo was a massive puncher, harder hitting than Bellew, though perhaps not as sturdy, although we've yet to see Bellew take any shots flush from a hellacious puncher that I can recall.
Haye knows his own body, people keep forgetting he is himself a blown up cruiser, that muscle will atrophy fast, all haye has to do is reduce his calorie intake, and do lots of cardio, and it will melt away quicker than a solero ice-lolly in death valley.
I think that the Enzo back then would have taken the current Bellew's head clean off his shoulders.
Haye done them up a kipper. Apparently giving up all the advantages just to get the fight made. Enzo had the big promoter and the show was set up purely for him ( I was there, and even though it was n London the whole build up was Welsh biased, Tom Jones tracks blaring pre-fight etc )
Haye weighing in whilst drinking a protein shake killed any chance Enzo had in that one. Haye was clearly a level above Enzo and smashed him to bits.
Bellew's only chance of a result is if Haye is a shell of who he was, which is possible I guess. If he is as good as he was, Bellew doesn't last 6 minutes.
He certainly did! Warren and Enzo fell for it hook line and sinker, what a sickener that must have been. To know you've been had over like that must really rankle. Then again, why would you ever listen to the pre-fight talk of the opponent? I think it was a case of believing what they wanted to hear.
PredatorHayds wrote:Can't blame Bellew for trying to get the Haye fight. His options are
Briedis-Mandatory- Gets KTFO
Lebedev-Unification- Gets KTFO
Usyk-Unification- gets KTFO.
Haye- get's build a circus around a fight that shouldn't happen, get a ridiculous payday for a fight that doesn't merit it, probably gets to hold his CW title regardless
Gets KTFO
lillywhite14 wrote:Wladimir was almost as gun shy as Haye that night. "arguably" all he did was deserve to lose a bit less than Haye did. Terrible fight and Wlads performance gets overlooked due to Haye's pre-fight chat and lack of commitment during the fight.
Does anyone else agree with this absolute nonsense?
lillywhite14 wrote:Talk about levels - Wlad was the main man at his weight and had been for yonks. Clev was a glorified European level fighter who held a paper title.
Cleverly was a legitimately ranked top 10 fighter in the world.
lillywhite14 wrote:Ruiz 'arguably' beat Valuev himself two fights before he fought Haye. He was also ( and this is killing me typing this ) a 3-time "world champion" if we are going to get technical over it.
He's a better win than Bellew's best win on that list. If Makabu is Bellew's best win, then his resume is piss weak.
Ruiz lost to Valuev widely in my opinion.
Haye's win against old man Ruiz is not better than Bellew's best win.
Point A: yeah I agree. Both Haye and Wlad were very negative. I haven't watched it in a while but it's not like Wladamir beat Haye up, is it? Haye fought with his hands down and slipped loads of Wlad's shots, used feints, a bit like Fury actually, only Fury had height and reach on Wladamir so didn't have to get inside to hit him and couldn't be leant on. The size difference was the clear factor in the fight and obviously Haye's gameplan was to not engage but to try and get Wlad to come to him. W lad's gameplan was to keep Haye on the outside and he never really attempted to KO Haye. I think he landed one good shot on him the whole fight. I'm also pretty sure Haye actually won a couple of rounds although I could be wrong.
Point B: Lillywhite is absolutely right. Clev won his title against nobody, defended against nobody's and lost badly when he properly stepped up. Wladamir was the most dominant champ since Lewis and was at his peak when Haye fought him. To compare him to Cleverly is ridiculous. He was top 10? So what? What does that mean? Loads of shit fighters get ranked top ten. Was Wlad ranked in the p4p top 10 before or after the Haye fight? I can't remember. Cleverly has never been anywhere near a p4p list.
Can't remember which one of the Ruiz Valuev fights I watched and can't really remember it to be honest. Ruiz had been out for a while and was well past his best but would that version of Ruiz have beaten Bellew? I think he probably would.i do think Makabu is a better win in terms of significance but head to head I think old Ruiz beats Makabu as well.
