Bellew v Haye at catchweight

[Horse]

Point A: yeah I agree. Both Haye and Wlad were very negative. I haven't watched it in a while but it's not like Wladamir beat Haye up, is it? Haye fought with his hands down and slipped loads of Wlad's shots, used feints, a bit like Fury actually, only Fury had height and reach on Wladamir so didn't have to get inside to hit him and couldn't be leant on. The size difference was the clear factor in the fight and obviously Haye's gameplan was to not engage but to try and get Wlad to come to him. W lad's gameplan was to keep Haye on the outside and he never really attempted to KO Haye. I think he landed one good shot on him the whole fight. I'm also pretty sure Haye actually won a couple of rounds although I could be wrong.

Wladimir won 11 rounds to 1 on my scorecard. It's nonsense to suggest that they were equally bad.

Wladimir won easily and didn't have to do anything better to win. Haye did have to improve, but he couldn't.

Point B: Lillywhite is absolutely right. Clev won his title against nobody, defended against nobody's and lost badly when he properly stepped up. Wladamir was the most dominant champ since Lewis and was at his peak when Haye fought him. To compare him to Cleverly is ridiculous. He was top 10? So what? What does that mean? Loads of poo fighters get ranked top ten. Was Wlad ranked in the p4p top 10 before or after the Haye fight? I can't remember. Cleverly has never been anywhere near a p4p list.

Wladimir was a lot better than Cleverly, but Cleverly didn't dominate Bellew.

I'm meant to consider Haye getting dominated by Wladimir like it's some great result for Haye?

[Stuarty]

Point A: yeah I agree. Both Haye and Wlad were very negative. I haven't watched it in a while but it's not like Wladamir beat Haye up, is it? Haye fought with his hands down and slipped loads of Wlad's shots, used feints, a bit like Fury actually, only Fury had height and reach on Wladamir so didn't have to get inside to hit him and couldn't be leant on. The size difference was the clear factor in the fight and obviously Haye's gameplan was to not engage but to try and get Wlad to come to him. W lad's gameplan was to keep Haye on the outside and he never really attempted to KO Haye. I think he landed one good shot on him the whole fight. I'm also pretty sure Haye actually won a couple of rounds although I could be wrong.

Wladimir won 11 rounds to 1 on my scorecard. It's nonsense to suggest that they were equally bad.

Wladimir won easily and didn't have to do anything better to win. Haye did have to improve, but he couldn't.

Point B: Lillywhite is absolutely right. Clev won his title against nobody, defended against nobody's and lost badly when he properly stepped up. Wladamir was the most dominant champ since Lewis and was at his peak when Haye fought him. To compare him to Cleverly is ridiculous. He was top 10? So what? What does that mean? Loads of poo fighters get ranked top ten. Was Wlad ranked in the p4p top 10 before or after the Haye fight? I can't remember. Cleverly has never been anywhere near a p4p list.

Wladimir was a lot better than Cleverly, but Cleverly didn't dominate Bellew.

I'm meant to consider Haye getting dominated by Wladimir like it's some great result for Haye?

Apologies if I'm misreading this as I've only caught the last couple of messages but you're not suggesting Bellew beats Haye are you Horse?

[Horse]

Apologies if I'm misreading this as I've only caught the last couple of messages but you're not suggesting Bellew beats Haye are you Horse?

Bellew is an underdog, but he has a chance. Haye is not as amazing as a lot of people make out on here.

Now Haye is getting big praise for getting dominated by Wladimir. Haye can do anything and people think it's great.

[Stuarty]

Apologies if I'm misreading this as I've only caught the last couple of messages but you're not suggesting Bellew beats Haye are you Horse?

Bellew is an underdog, but he has a chance. Haye is not as amazing as a lot of people make out on here.

Now Haye is getting big praise for getting dominated by Wladimir. Haye can do anything and people think it's great.

He's a tit but I reckon he beats Bellew easy enough. Wouldn't say Bellew has no chance though. Two horse race and Bellew is in best form of his career. Big ask for him though as Haye is so powerful.

[Cyclops]

Apologies if I'm misreading this as I've only caught the last couple of messages but you're not suggesting Bellew beats Haye are you Horse?

Bellew is an underdog, but he has a chance. Haye is not as amazing as a lot of people make out on here.

Now Haye is getting big praise for getting dominated by Wladimir. Haye can do anything and people think it's great.

You're giving Bellew credit for a close loss against a weak definition of a paper champion his own size who never won a significant fight. We're giving Haye credit for a wide defeat against a peak dominant super champion 3 inches taller and 30lbs heavier who was widely the best in his division for many years and made the p4p list.

It's a stupid tit for tat argument but you can't honestly coat other people off for disagreeing with you when the argument from both sides is basically this guy is less shit than this guy.

Bellew gets evaporated by Haye. Just because you always championed Fury in the face of all reason and he then pulled it off doesn't make you right all the time. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, Horse.

[PredatorHayds]

Can't blame Bellew for trying to get the Haye fight. His options are

Briedis-Mandatory- Gets KTFO

Lebedev-Unification- Gets KTFO

Usyk-Unification- gets KTFO.

Haye- get's build a circus around a fight that shouldn't happen, get a ridiculous payday for a fight that doesn't merit it, probably gets to hold his CW title regardless
Gets KTFO

Fixed that for you mate.

I disagree. Usyk probably boxes him to a shutout.
Can't blame Bellew chasing Haye though.

[Deslioni]

Catch weight at heavyweight? Disgrace. The way Big mouth bellew goes on, weight should be no issue. He acta as though king Kong would fall at his feet.

Gobsh1te

Totally agree, Bellew lost the right to negotiate what weight the fight would be held at when he said he'd fight at heavyweight......not to mention it is him asking Haye for the fight.

[lillywhite14]

Apologies if I'm misreading this as I've only caught the last couple of messages but you're not suggesting Bellew beats Haye are you Horse?

Bellew is an underdog, but he has a chance. Haye is not as amazing as a lot of people make out on here.

Now Haye is getting big praise for getting dominated by Wladimir. Haye can do anything and people think it's great.

He isn't getting big praise. You're giving Bellew big praise for losing to Cleverly.

Others suggesting Haye's loss to Wlad was at least equal or a better "achievement" doesn't mean they are praising it. I'm not praising either performance. Haye won at least 3 rounds and there was a couple more extremely close. Wlad was a clear winner no doubt but it was a boring fight with both men keen not to get too involved.

Haye WAS a quality fighter. If he is still anywhere near as good he beats Bellew up imo.

[crusader]

Apologies if I'm misreading this as I've only caught the last couple of messages but you're not suggesting Bellew beats Haye are you Horse?

Bellew is an underdog, but he has a chance. Haye is not as amazing as a lot of people make out on here.

Now Haye is getting big praise for getting dominated by Wladimir. Haye can do anything and people think it's great.

He isn't getting big praise. You're giving Bellew big praise for losing to Cleverly.

Others suggesting Haye's loss to Wlad was at least equal or a better "achievement" doesn't mean they are praising it. I'm not praising either performance. Haye won at least 3 rounds and there was a couple more extremely close. Wlad was a clear winner no doubt but it was a boring fight with both men keen not to get too involved.

Haye WAS a quality fighter. If he is still anywhere near as good he beats Bellew up imo.

I gave Haye only 2 rounds, and anything more than 3 is stretching it; Wlad easily dominated and didnt need to be doing more than he was. Of course Wlad was much better than Clev (though Clev was no slouch), but Haye did so little (less than Tony Thompson for example, and even Wach had Wlad in more trouble) that I wouldnt rate his loss as superior to Bellew's very closely fought defeat.

I expect Haye to poleaxe TB if they square off anytime soon, but I don't think Horse's assessment of the two losses is unreasonable.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think it's a pointless comparison; the salient comparison is surely how we think Bellew would have done against Wlad. I've seen nothing to suggest he'd have lasted more than a few rounds with Wlad.

Whereas Wlad was wary of Haye's power, and therefore fought a little more circumspectly than usual, he'd most likely have just walked Bellew down.

Conjecture of course, but comparing Bellew's performance against Cleverly to Haye's against Wlad, seems pretty pointless to me. Different opponents, very different styles, very different risk factors.

That said, Haye's performance against Wlad was so negative as to be almost non-existent.

[Horse]

I gave Haye only 2 rounds, and anything more than 3 is stretching it; Wlad easily dominated and didnt need to be doing more than he was. Of course Wlad was much better than Clev (though Clev was no slouch), but Haye did so little (less than Tony Thompson for example, and even Wach had Wlad in more trouble) that I wouldnt rate his loss as superior to Bellew's very closely fought defeat.

I expect Haye to poleaxe TB if they square off anytime soon, but I don't think Horse's assessment of the two losses is unreasonable.