Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[Kalan]

It would be very similar to the Holmes-Ali fight... where Ali lost every round by a million miles before quitting in his corner... Ali had a chance to fight Holmes in his prime -- but he fought unranked Leon Spinks instead... Holmes beat Norton for the stripped Heavyweight Title, but Ali acted as if Larry didn't exist.

Holmes jab was too good and he was too strong, slick, and tough for the soft Ali... Ali barely beat Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Ali got his jaw shattered by when he was badly beaten by wide open Ken Norton...Ali was floored and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper... Ali got beaten to trash and blasted to the canvas by fat little 5'11" X 205 Joe Frazier... Ali looked like he was trying to smuggle a cantalope in his right cheek after the Smokin' Joe fight... and variously, Ali looked really vulnerable and very easy to hit -- because he pulled straight back from punches instead of taking the time to develop the masterful defensive skills of a superb boxer like Larry Holmes.

It's quite telling that you conveniently cite the time before & after Ali was in his absolute peak as a barometer against Holmes.

When he was decked against Cooper & when he struggled against Jones, he was young kid who had not developed physically nor mentally.

All the fights in the 70s were also after his absolute prime too.

How about using 1966/67 as Ali's prime period & pitching that version against Holmes?

Holmes would have destroyed the Ali who fought little 194-pound Mildenberger. That clumsy Krout tagged Ali up, but would have lasted 1 round vs Holmes.

[hhaehre]

Holmes lost a few... but he didn't look as bad as Ali doing it... Holmes won his first 48 fights including 21 Heavyweight Championship fights. Not many do that

When you reach M in your Boxrec readings you will find that one guy actually won all his 49 fights!! Hope I didn't spoil Boxrec for you by divulging this amazing fact.

[Syntax Error]

It would be very similar to the Holmes-Ali fight... where Ali lost every round by a million miles before quitting in his corner... Ali had a chance to fight Holmes in his prime -- but he fought unranked Leon Spinks instead... Holmes beat Norton for the stripped Heavyweight Title, but Ali acted as if Larry didn't exist.

Holmes jab was too good and he was too strong, slick, and tough for the soft Ali... Ali barely beat Light Heavyweight Doug Jones... Ali got his jaw shattered by when he was badly beaten by wide open Ken Norton...Ali was floored and almost knocked out by 185-pound Henry Cooper... Ali got beaten to trash and blasted to the canvas by fat little 5'11" X 205 Joe Frazier... Ali looked like he was trying to smuggle a cantalope in his right cheek after the Smokin' Joe fight... and variously, Ali looked really vulnerable and very easy to hit -- because he pulled straight back from punches instead of taking the time to develop the masterful defensive skills of a superb boxer like Larry Holmes.

and Holmes was knocked senseless by Tyson and outpointed twice by a light heavyweight and lost to McCall and was taken the distance by Butterbean and babble babble bullshit bullshit babble babble and I can read Boxrec records and bable babble and Frazier couldn't swim and in the end WILT!!

Holmes lost a few... but he didn't look as bad as Ali doing it... Holmes won his first 48 fights including 21 Heavyweight Championship fights. Not many do that

What happened to Holmes in his 40's and 50's -- when he was still fighting??? ... Ali had long since been beaten to trash by that age. Ali lacked LH's skills

Ali had Parkinson's Syndrome.

He probably had it as far back as '77, although it wasn't officially diagnosed until after he finally quit.

Ali could not have performed as well at an advanced age with a neurological condition.

[Rexob]

A peak Ali would have beaten every peak heavyweight champion including Holmes.

[BoxBuzz]

Can anyone point out to me, just WHO the lame brain is, that referred to the Spinks-Ali fight as having taken place in Ali's Prime?

Seriously....I read that a few contributions up....but I was so shocked by the sheer goofiness of the statement that I had a "Soda went up my nose" laugh....and couldn't bring myself to believe anyone here would type such words. About either of those fights.

And yet....I did see them.....but I need a witness cuz I can't bare going back and looking again..because I just opened up another soda.........so please someone just tell me the name of the person who typed those words......just to confirm that I'm awake here. And afterwards I'll have a sidebar conversation with that person...just to give them a heads up.

I don't want to openly embarrass anyone....so I will PM them rather than make a big deal of it right here in front of everyone.

Thanks in advance.


uh.....oops.....yeah.....Well.....hmm

I still want to know who it was.

[punchoutsb]

Can anyone point out to me, just WHO the lame brain is, that referred to the Spinks-Ali fight as having taken place in Ali's Prime?

Seriously....I read that a few contributions up....but I was so shocked by the sheer goofiness of the statement that I had a "Soda went up my nose" laugh....and couldn't bring myself to believe anyone here would type such words. About either of those fights.

And yet....I did see them.....but I need a witness cuz I can't bare going back and looking again..because I just opened up another soda.........so please someone just tell me the name of the person who typed those words......just to confirm that I'm awake here. And afterwards I'll have a sidebar conversation with that person...just to give them a heads up.

I don't want to openly embarrass anyone....so I will PM them rather than make a big deal of it right here in front of everyone.

Thanks in advance.


uh.....oops.....yeah.....Well.....hmm

I still want to know who it was.

I never drink soda and somehow I had soda come out of my nose reading that as well. Magic!

[Kalan]

Can anyone point out to me, just WHO the lame brain is, that referred to the Spinks-Ali fight as having taken place in Ali's Prime?

Seriously....I read that a few contributions up....but I was so shocked by the sheer goofiness of the statement that I had a "Soda went up my nose" laugh....and couldn't bring myself to believe anyone here would type such words. About either of those fights.

And yet....I did see them.....but I need a witness cuz I can't bare going back and looking again..because I just opened up another soda.........so please someone just tell me the name of the person who typed those words......just to confirm that I'm awake here. And afterwards I'll have a sidebar conversation with that person...just to give them a heads up.

I don't want to openly embarrass anyone....so I will PM them rather than make a big deal of it right here in front of everyone.

Thanks in advance.


uh.....oops.....yeah.....Well.....hmm

I still want to know who it was.

Much like MIke Tyson's fans always claim as well -- Ali's prime was the shortest of any Heavyweight Champion.. That way he's not responsible for any losses.. Funny how Wladimir Klitschko is 41 years old.. and he's going to be responsible for getting flattened by Anthony Joshua.. And I'll just say that your prime lasts longer if you don't get hammered in the head with a lot of blooping punches.. Maybe they should have told Ali that.

And Ali was closer to his prime than Leon Spinks ever was at being a finished and polished Heavyweight.

[Scypion]

Ali.

[SteveO]

Ali's prime was the shortest of any Heavyweight Champion.

Let's not forget that Ali was not allowed to box for over 3 of his prime years.
Had he been allowed to continue during that period he would probably have retired with an an amazing amount of title defences, easily eclipsing the great Joe Louis' record. He wouldn't have lost the first fight against Frazier either.....IMO.

[SteveO]

A peak Ali would have beaten every peak heavyweight champion including Holmes.

[Syntax Error]

Can anyone point out to me, just WHO the lame brain is, that referred to the Spinks-Ali fight as having taken place in Ali's Prime?

Seriously....I read that a few contributions up....but I was so shocked by the sheer goofiness of the statement that I had a "Soda went up my nose" laugh....and couldn't bring myself to believe anyone here would type such words. About either of those fights.

And yet....I did see them.....but I need a witness cuz I can't bare going back and looking again..because I just opened up another soda.........so please someone just tell me the name of the person who typed those words......just to confirm that I'm awake here. And afterwards I'll have a sidebar conversation with that person...just to give them a heads up.

I don't want to openly embarrass anyone....so I will PM them rather than make a big deal of it right here in front of everyone.

Thanks in advance.


uh.....oops.....yeah.....Well.....hmm

I still want to know who it was.

Much like MIke Tyson's fans always claim as well -- Ali's prime was the shortest of any Heavyweight Champion.. That way he's not responsible for any losses.. Funny how Wladimir Klitschko is 41 years old.. and he's going to be responsible for getting flattened by Anthony Joshua.. And I'll just say that your prime lasts longer if you don't get hammered in the head with a lot of blooping punches.. Maybe they should have told Ali that.

And Ali was closer to his prime than Leon Spinks ever was at being a finished and polished Heavyweight.

I don't think anyone has said Ali wasn't responsible for his losses, but it is laughable to claim that he was the same force when he returned in 1970 as he was in 1967 when forced into exile.

He was still formidable for many years & would have taken a lot of effort & guile to beat him & anyone that did should rightly be proud, but it's bonkers to suggest that Ali was anywhere near his prime in 1978.

Ferdie Pacheco will tell you that he had neurological damage well before he fought Spinks, hence why the doctor left Team Ali because he could see what was going to happen.

As for taking punches, everyone is different.

Some people who never taken a punch in their lives get neurological damage.

Ali was unlucky & probably predisposed to Parkinson's as his father had the disease too.

[BoxBuzz]

As a head injury specialist I can tell you that it can never truly be known if Ali was affected by Parkinson's via his DNA.....something that was going to catch up to him no matter what.

OR if he experienced pugilistic dementia....which some fighters are more susceptible to than others.

I do believe that he had an inherited organic issue that was diagnosed...meaning something was affecting him OTHER than pugilistic dementia.

What can never clearly be deciphered is how much of one and how much of the other (in what ratio) led to his manifest symptoms.


If you are going to play the odds.....one would be wise to guess that some of it was from his ring career. He received and depended upon his ability to absorb punishment.
He may be the state of the art on that subject. To imagine that all those shots he often absorbed had no affect would be to put him in a remarkable class of folks who were virtually
inoculated from such symptoms. Pretty thin odds.

But not impossible.

With that said, he was able to keep his wits about him pretty well for someone who only had 1 and not the other, even more amazing for someone who may well have been experiencing a good dose of both.

[man]

in the end ali in a very competitive one. could
have been a classic with a lot back and forth.

to me both boxers are the total package. speed,
power, brains and both could really take a punch.

neither man scores a knock out and in razor thin
decision ali gets the nod.

to me holmes was always extremely interesting
to watch. there is so much i love about his way
of moving. he could be an elegant boxer and a
vicious puncher, a very rare combination, plus
he could change from one to the other in a split
second.

[Badhusker]

I feel a motivated 1974 Ali - knowing the challenge in front of him (i.e not underestimating a Norton) would beat Holmes by close decision.

I feel a 1966 - 1967 Ali would win over Holmes 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. Ali was Supernatural in this period. He would have beaten Frazier then too in my opinion.

evren

This. Well said.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holmes razor close Dec. Better jab IMO.

[Keko]

That would be a great fight.
I think Ali UD close decision win.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali's prime was the shortest of any Heavyweight Champion.

Let's not forget that Ali was not allowed to box for over 3 of his prime years.
Had he been allowed to continue during that period he would probably have retired with an an amazing amount of title defences, easily eclipsing the great Joe Louis' record. He wouldn't have lost the first fight against Frazier either.....IMO.

Louis lost several years of his own.

[aajayunlimited]

Ali wins 10 - 5 in a 15 rder and at least 8 - 4 in a 12 rder. The problem for Holmes is that he comes straight in when you have to find a way to neutralize what Ali does or he's gonna whoop ya! The model is Frazier both stylistically and genetically. Frazier lacks only upper echelon power to ensure a victory in this matchup; Frazier would need to be able to put Ali away in the 2-3 rds that a well-trained, highly motivated Ali would give him. Frazier has never shown the ability to do that with someone who had a very good chin. He seemed to do it by accumulation by the middle of the fight for most prime opposition. If Frazier had a Marciano or Shavers punch, then I like his chances. I feel like he'd get the chance later in the fight to put some punches together and end it. I think it's very possible to beat a prime Ali, but I don't think the fighter has come along yet. Norton was his toughest opponent when he was older, but I don't see it(Norton was tailormade for that Ali--whenever he danced Ken could do almost nothing). Marciano could have done it with Frazier's genetics, but, as it is, it's Cooper 3 or a KO by Ali. I don't see Holmes winning, because Ali could take Shavers right without falling and Holmes had half or 2/3 of that at best(and that's a lot) and he could not outbox Ali. Ali wins clearly and easily.

[Kalan]

How about Sonny Liston prior to this then...? And in regards to Cleve Williams...watch his fight prior to the Ali match...against Herring...watch the live broadcast and tell me he was washed up!! Ernie Terrell??

If you don't realize that 11/66 Cleve Williams was a washed up fighter, then you are utterly and completely beyond help.

And do you really think that Ernie Terrell was some kind of big time threat to Ali? He and the way past it Folley were exactly the kind of plodders that Ali could look great against.

But hey, Ali did go up against the extremely dangerous Brian London. I'll give him that.

Prime Frazier takes less than 20 rounds to dispose of all 5 guys that Ali fought in '66


p.s. I'm sure Alp will be along to rationalize that there was a vast difference between the 3/66 Chuvalo that Ali struggled 15 rounds with and the 7/67 version that Frazier made turn away in 9 minutes and 16 seconds.

Williams was the most washed up fighter I've ever seen... Satterfield (a light heavyweight) and Liston knocked a prime Williams STIFF in 1 and 2 rounds.

Terrell was easily beaten by the incompetent Thad Spencer...

Brian London was 1 of the many sacks of shat that Ali fought...

Frazier was 5'11" X 205.. Foreman dribbled him like an overinflated basketball.

Foreman claimed he was doped for Ali.. He certainly looked like it... Running out of gas and falling without being hit real good.. Just stumbling around in a circle and falling more like he was drunk more than being floored... George had his head off the canvas through the whole count.

I think the Holmes-Ali fight says it all.. Holmes at 42 easily beat Ray Mercer, who would have given Ali fits... Ali at 36 couldn't even beat Leon Stinks.

[evrenb]

How about Sonny Liston prior to this then...? And in regards to Cleve Williams...watch his fight prior to the Ali match...against Herring...watch the live broadcast and tell me he was washed up!! Ernie Terrell??

If you don't realize that 11/66 Cleve Williams was a washed up fighter, then you are utterly and completely beyond help.

And do you really think that Ernie Terrell was some kind of big time threat to Ali? He and the way past it Folley were exactly the kind of plodders that Ali could look great against.

But hey, Ali did go up against the extremely dangerous Brian London. I'll give him that.

Prime Frazier takes less than 20 rounds to dispose of all 5 guys that Ali fought in '66


p.s. I'm sure Alp will be along to rationalize that there was a vast difference between the 3/66 Chuvalo that Ali struggled 15 rounds with and the 7/67 version that Frazier made turn away in 9 minutes and 16 seconds.

Williams was the most washed up fighter I've ever seen... Satterfield (a light heavyweight) and Liston knocked a prime Williams STIFF in 1 and 2 rounds.

Terrell was easily beaten by the incompetent Thad Spencer...

Brian London was 1 of the many sacks of shat that Ali fought...

Frazier was 5'11" X 205.. Foreman dribbled him like an overinflated basketball.

Foreman claimed he was doped for Ali.. He certainly looked like it... Running out of gas and falling without being hit real good.. Just stumbling around in a circle and falling more like he was drunk more than being floored... George had his head off the canvas through the whole count.

I think the Holmes-Ali fight says it all.. Holmes at 42 easily beat Ray Mercer, who would have given Ali fits... Ali at 36 couldn't even beat Leon Stinks.

[Kalan]

Holmes lost a few... but he didn't look as bad as Ali doing it... Holmes won his first 48 fights including 21 Heavyweight Championship fights. Not many do that

When you reach M in your Boxrec readings you will find that one guy actually won all his 49 fights!! Hope I didn't spoil Boxrec for you by divulging this amazing fact.

M actually has 2 names who won 49 straight... one of them had 7 Title Fights... Holmes' 48 straight had 21 straight Title Fights.

And 49-0 isn't amazing... Yory Boy Campas went 56-0... He wasn't so amazing either... He got plowed in his next one.

[evrenb]

Holmes lost a few... but he didn't look as bad as Ali doing it... Holmes won his first 48 fights including 21 Heavyweight Championship fights. Not many do that

When you reach M in your Boxrec readings you will find that one guy actually won all his 49 fights!! Hope I didn't spoil Boxrec for you by divulging this amazing fact.

M actually has 2 names who won 49 straight... one of them had 7 Title Fights... Holmes' 48 straight had 21 straight Title Fights.

And 49-0 isn't amazing... Yory Boy Campas went 56-0... He wasn't so amazing either... He got plowed in his next one.

Holmes didn't look as bad as Ali...yeah..like the Tyson fight?? Gosh you write drivel..

[ldlamb]

1966 Ali figures Holmes out after about 5 rounds, starts to bust him up and get a TKO9.

[Kalan]

LOL.. And Ali took 12 rounds to get the inept weakling, the 194-pound Karl Mildenberger out that year??? ... Holmes would stop the Ali of any year.

[Kalan]

1966 Ali figures Holmes out after about 5 rounds, starts to bust him up and get a TKO9.

LOL.. And Ali took 12 rounds to get the inept weakling, the 194-pound Karl Mildenberger out that year??? ... Holmes would stop the Ali of any year.