The LIGHTWEIGHT game: *VOTE CLOSED*

[elmersalsa]

The great Joe Brown on the bottom of the top 10? Ridiculous!

This guy fought in 18 countries all over the world. He was A TRUE WORLD CHAMPION in any sense of the word. He made 11 world title defenses and was The Ring Fighter of the Year in 1961. He held the lightweight crown for 6 freaking years! What in the hell some are thinking. Some people don't make good research and just vote for the heck of it. The same happened with the greats Kid Gavilan and Emile Griffith at welterweight. Those two at welterweight without a doubt should be ranked in the top 5 of the welterweight all-time ranks.

[Seamus]

The hard part isn't who to include, but who to leave out.

[davie]

The hard part isn't who to include, but who to leave out.

I'm seriously questioning my decision to leave out Whitaker.
I think I've overlooked just how much he did at lightweight because his reign as p4p no1 coincided with his career at 140 and 147. But it was his achievements at 135 that got him there

Not sure I'd have him top 5 like the overall list, but he should have made the 10

[elmersalsa]

The hard part isn't who to include, but who to leave out.

I'm seriously questioning my decision to leave out Whitaker.
I think I've overlooked just how much he did at lightweight because his reign as p4p no1 coincided with his career at 140 and 147. But it was his achievements at 135 that got him there

Not sure I'd have him top 5 like the overall list, but he should have made the 10

The great Pernell Whitaker was the greatest lightweight and dominant champion of his era. To put him below someone like the great Henry Armstrong at lightweight is ridiculous.

[Ambling Alp II]

The hard part isn't who to include, but who to leave out.

Agreed. The gap between the 1-10 group and the 1-20 is closer at lightweight than at any other major weight class.

[cfang]

Duran
Leonard
Gans

Willams
Ortiz
Brown
Chavez
Whitaker
Canzoneri
JMM

[elmersalsa]

I sometimes feel bad with boxers like the greats like Ike Williams, Joe Brown and Pernell Whitaker for example, don't get their just due.

The great Ike Williams was the best lightweight of perhaps THE GOLDEN ERA OF LIGHTWEIGHTS. He beat them all. Sometimes twice. Sometimes three times. Look how many guys he beat: Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Juan Zurita, Sammy Angott, Jesse Flores, Willie Joyce, Eddie Giosa, Lulu Constantino, Freddie Dawson, Enrique Bolanos, Johnny Bratton, and Tippy Larkin to name a few. And he held the lightweight crown for 6 years and make 8 title defenses. Was also The Ring Fighter of the Year in 1948. And still, to top it off, he still doesn't get mad respect. A top 5 lightweight in my view, and deservedly so. He even beat some good welterweight boxers while being just a lightweight.

Williams not in the top 5 is like The Brown Bomber is not a top 3 all time heavyweight. That is the way I see it.

[Keko]

Williams was great but he was on the list of many of the top 5 or top 8. There is no point comparison with Joe Louis.

Only Leonard, Gans and Duran are mostly all in the top while Whitaker, Ortiz ,Canzoneri and Williams are behind them.

[Crease]

Maybe you shouldn't update the scores - it opens the door for manipulation of the results. Just a thought, personally I like seeing the updates.

The results are always going to be manipulated, between people giving points to their favourite fighters, or underscoring fighters that they don't like. The scoreboard changes with every single vote counted.
I could stop the updates, but I think people like seeing them.

[Crease]

I'm seriously questioning my decision to leave out Whitaker. I think I've overlooked just how much he did at lightweight

Same here. Although I ranked him in the lower regions of my top 10, I think now that he should have been higher.

[Crease]

The great Pernell Whitaker was the greatest lightweight and dominant champion of his era. To put him below someone like the great Henry Armstrong at lightweight is ridiculous.

I wouldn't go that far. Armstrong was as dominant over 3 weight classes, as any fighter in history. It could be argued that he was at his best in "the middle" between the tree weights (Featherweight, Lightweight, Welterweight), which would be at Lightweight.

[Crease]

Going to post another update here shortly.

[Crease]

CURRENT Scoreboard: (15 Members have voted)

1st - 130 Benny Leonard
2nd - 128.5 pts Roberto Duran
3rd - 102.5 pts Joe Gans
4th - 67 pts Henry Armstrong
5th - 64 pts Carlos Ortiz
6th - 58 pts Pernell Whitaker
7th - 57 pts Tony Canzoneri
8th - 55 pts Ike Williams
9th - 28 pts Barney Ross
10th - 25 pts Lou Ambers

11th - 21 pts Joe Brown
12th - 17 pts Packey McFarland
13th - 13 pts Julio Cesar Chavez
14th - 11 pts Freddie Welsh
15th - 9 pts Shane Mosley
16th - 8 pts Edwin Valero
17th - 7 pts Esteban DeJesus
18th - 5 pts Juan Manuel Marquez
Tied 19th - 4 pts Ken Buchanan
Tied 19th - 4 pts Battling Nelson
Tied 21st - 3 pts Manny Pacquaio
Tied 21st - 3 pts Sammy Mandell
23rd - 2 pts Edwin Rosario
Tied 24th - 1 pts Alexis Arguello
Tied 24th - 1 pts Ismael Laguna
Tied 24th - 1 pts Rocky Kansas

[Crease]

Are we giving up on this one, gents?

[APerno]

CURRENT Scoreboard: (15 Members have voted)

1st - 130 Benny Leonard
2nd - 128.5 pts Roberto Duran
3rd - 102.5 pts Joe Gans
4th - 67 pts Henry Armstrong
5th - 64 pts Carlos Ortiz
6th - 58 pts Pernell Whitaker
7th - 57 pts Tony Canzoneri
8th - 55 pts Ike Williams
9th - 28 pts Barney Ross
10th - 25 pts Lou Ambers

11th - 21 pts Joe Brown
12th - 17 pts Packey McFarland
13th - 13 pts Julio Cesar Chavez
14th - 11 pts Freddie Welsh
15th - 9 pts Shane Mosley
16th - 8 pts Edwin Valero
17th - 7 pts Esteban DeJesus
18th - 5 pts Juan Manuel Marquez
Tied 19th - 4 pts Ken Buchanan
Tied 19th - 4 pts Battling Nelson
Tied 21st - 3 pts Manny Pacquaio
Tied 21st - 3 pts Sammy Mandell
23rd - 2 pts Edwin Rosario
Tied 24th - 1 pts Alexis Arguello
Tied 24th - 1 pts Ismael Laguna
Tied 24th - 1 pts Rocky Kansas

This time the big split is between 3rd and 4th place - not 4th and 5th. - No surprise we are down to 15 - when you get to flyweight your going to lose me too.

[Crease]

No surprise we are down to 15 - when you get to flyweight your going to lose me too.

You think so?
And yet in the Middleweight & Welterweight threads, members were stating how much they were looking forward to this thread.

I've noticed that there are those who are keen to leave their votes to near the end of the month. I guess we'll just see how It goes.

[Keko]

Maybe we could really for other categories have 15 days deadline.

This is a great category but obviously not as much interest.

[crl333]

1. Leonard
2. Duran
3. Gans
4. Whitaker
5. Ortiz
6. Williams
7. Canzoneri
8. Armstrong
9. McFarland
10. Ross

[Seamus]

BUMP

[DareTBG]

Who did Edwin Valero beat to rank him ahead of Lightweight hall of famers ?

[davie]

Who did Edwin Valero beat to rank him ahead of Lightweight hall of famers ?

Don't ask

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Lightweights are also scattered with some real wars, maybe the most vicious of all the divisions.

1. Roberto Duran,
2. Manny Pacquiao,
3. Joe Gans,
4. Benny Leonard,
5. Henry Armstrong,
6. Tony Canzonelli,
7. Ike Williams,
8. JCChavez,
9. Carlos Ortiz,
10. Packy McFarland

The Big Five are self evident. Oh, and Elmo and an all your sisters, before you run off again with your little sillyisms, lightweight is any weight above 126lbs, and in Manny's era where weight draining and two extra days of rehydration have altered the fight weights. As soon as this starving Filipino kid jumped from fly to superbantam in a single bound, his fight weights were most assuredly over 130 lbs, well within the division. He's a multi division star that spanned 11 divisions, more than Armstrong or Fitzsimmons, but more telling, he has the record setting P4P bouts to bolster the stiffest competition in modern history, so the only question is which divisions to rate him.

Joe Gans the first modern styled great lightweight would be in the mix in every era, especially if he never contracted tuberculosis which contributed to his decline and early death. Benny a great fighter, but against his peers, I guess his genius is lost on me. Maybe I haven't seen the right bouts, but I'm generally more disposed towards sluggers rather than corrupt judges but regardless he definitely earns a high place for me.

Again, I span over 100 years of boxing trying my best to sift through the truly seminal, game changing fighters and the "mere" greats. Let the hue and the crying begin.

[APerno]

Who did Edwin Valero beat to rank him ahead of Lightweight hall of famers ?

I am considering him for my featherweight list, but no decision yet - can't see him against the lightweight greats though - fought most of his fights at super featherweight (that's a WBC featherweight who can fly) with his last three fights at lightweight - would love to have seen him campaign for another five years at lightweight, then I suspect he would have made many of our lists.

[Keko]

here let it be like this and since today is the last day

1.Benny Leonard
2.Joe Gans,
3.Roberto Duran
4.Pernell Whitaker
5.Carlos Ortiz
6.Tony Canzoneri
7.Ike Williams
8.Henry Armstrong
9.Joe Brown
10.Lou Ambers

[SaadOffTheDeck]

1. Duran
2. Leonard
3. Armstrong
4. Whitaker
5. Williams
6. Gans
7. Arguello
8. Canzoneri
9. Ortiz
10. Ambers