Prime Muhammad Ali vs. a prime Larry Holmes?

[ldlamb]

You are so sad

[ldlamb]

1966 Ali figures Holmes out after about 5 rounds, starts to bust him up and get a TKO9.

LOL.. And Ali took 12 rounds to get the inept weakling, the 194-pound Karl Mildenberger out that year??? ... Holmes would stop the Ali of any year.

You are talking about the fight Ali dominated and had multiple KDs, right.

Plus, I don't see you mentioning the Cleveland Williams fight.

[Kalan]

Cleveland Williams was wrecked by gunshots to the kidney and pancreas... One leg lost 6" in girth.. He was gone.. In his prime Williams was knocked out by Bob Satterfield and Sonny Liston in 1 and 2 rounds... That's why I don't mention him... He was Ali's easiest opponent.

[Kalan]

And long before he fought Ali, Mildenberger was matched with Welshman Dick Richardson for the European Heavyweight Title.. Richardson knocked Mildenberger stiff for 10 minutes.. The punch that stretched Mildenberger out colder than 7 barrels of penguin poop landed in the 1st round.

[ldlamb]

Your obsession with Karl Mildenberger is hysterical.

Ali dominated the fight.

Every champ has fights with mediocre guys that were more dominated by lesser fighters....so what.

[BoxBuzz]

It's funny, Kalan and I somewhat agree that the sun is bright, and that Monzon loved to fight. And sometimes we argue about the sun.

But Monzon was not the only fighter who did not care for a fight to be "finished". I think Ali just liked to beat on people at times. Beat them to the punch, and enjoy his craft.

So sometimes fights lasted to the end, for the enjoyment. Not because he couldn't have accomplished the task. I think especially in the case of Ernie Terrell this was true.

Try to keep in mind I used the word sometimes.

[Kalan]

And sometimes Ali couldn't get the incompetent and very small and light fighters he fought out... Mildenberger was tagging Ali up at times, so it not very likely Ali was letting him stay in there just to beat on his ass some more...

But you're missing my point as usual... Somebody claimed the '66 version of Ali would have Holmes out in 9 rounds when Ali couldn't even get Mildenberger going in 9.. Holmes was 6'3 X 213 and a master boxer.. Mildenberger was 6' X 194 and a really terrible boxer who couldn't beat the clumsy, club-footed Bonavena.. If you look in the newspaper archives you'll find that Ali weighed 203 and Mildenberger weighed 194.. Boxrec adds a pound to both their weights for God knows what reason, but they do stuff like that all the time, like adding inches to somebody's height or reach.

Ali had only had one fight in his life with a boxer the caliber of Holmes... and dozens of fights with guys the caliber of Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Henry Cooper, Jean Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn, Rudi Lubbers, Jergin Blin, Chuck Wepner, and Buster Mathis -- and had losses to massive underdogs like Ken Norton and Leon Spinks ... who suffered crushing KO losses to other people.

[Syntax Error]

And sometimes Ali couldn't get the incompetent and very small and light fighters he fought out... Mildenberger was tagging Ali up at times, so it not very likely Ali was letting him stay in there just to beat on his ass some more...

But you're missing my point as usual... Somebody claimed the '66 version of Ali would have Holmes out in 9 rounds when Ali couldn't even get Mildenberger going in 9.. Holmes was 6'3 X 213 and a master boxer.. Mildenberger was 6' X 194 and a really terrible boxer who couldn't beat the clumsy, club-footed Bonavena.. If you look in the newspaper archives you'll find that Ali weighed 203 and Mildenberger weighed 194.. Boxrec adds a pound to both their weights for God knows what reason, but they do stuff like that all the time, like adding inches to somebody's height or reach.

Ali had only had one fight in his life with a boxer the caliber of Holmes... and dozens of fights with guys the caliber of Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Henry Cooper, Jean Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn, Rudi Lubbers, Jergin Blin, Chuck Wepner, and Buster Mathis -- and had losses to massive underdogs like Ken Norton and Leon Spinks ... who suffered crushing KO losses to other people.

What is this obsession with Mildenberger that you have?

Was Ali ever in trouble against Mildenberger?

Did he ever look like he was going to lose at any point?

Lots of lesser fighters than Ali would have probably KOd Mildenberger inside of a round, but so what?

That has no bearing on how Ali '66 might have fared against Larry Holmes.

Using your logic, you could argue that if Larry Holmes couldn't put down a 38 year old Ali with Parkinson's syndrome, he wouldn't have got near prime Ali too, but that would be crazy also.

What Ali did or didn't do against Mildenberger is completely irrelevant.

By all means, so that you think Holmes was better, but there is no need to talk about Mildenberger as if he is some sort of standard bearer.

[Kalan]

Because Holmes would have knocked Mildenberger out in 2 rounds and Ali took punishment from the clumsy and crude little punching bag who was knocked out for a 1000-count in the first round by Dick Richardson... There's the real Ali, who got punched up a lot -- and the myth that some Ali fans try to perpetrate... Ali was given a complete neurological physical by the Mayo Clinic prior to the Holmes fight. If he had any manifestations of Parkinson's he wouldn't have been allowed to fight Holmes by the boxing commissioners. Holmes dominated him so badly that it's easy to see a prime Ali had no chance at all. And that's why a more prime Ali ducked Holmes to fight Leon Spinks and then retire... And he only fought Holmes when he had no title to risk and the fight didn't mean anything because he was 38 years old.

He fought Trevor Berbick following his Holmes fight, so he was allowed to continue his career after additional physical checkups.. He was diagnosed with Parkinson's much later on -- but obviously the physical checkups like the Mayo Clinic tests that he had prior to his last couple fights revealed problems -- so he should have been advised to quit by the doctors. But they don't rule on it, they just forward the findings of the tests to the proper authorities. The boxing commission ruled in favor of the fights so they must have been satisfied. Ferdie Pacheco and Angelo Dundee were concerned about Ali before his last 2 fights. But Dundee was right there in the corner supporting Ali. If he wasn't in the corner it could have been worse.

[evrenb]

The devastating Larry Holmes who couldn't stop lucien Rodriguez?? Il Duce you are full of baloney....

[Kalan]

Did Ali ever fight Lucien Rodriguez??? NOPE!!! ... So it's not a good comparison doofus.

Ali couldn't get Alfredo Evangelista or Leon Spinks down or out... Larry Holmes shlttcanned both of them and blew them away.

[BoxBuzz]

Though Larry was given the fair decision......Butterbean put him on his butt.

And you can't say that Butterbean was in his prime when this happened.

And Butterbean NEVER knocked Ali down....not even ONCE!!! How bout them apples? huh?

So that's pretty much it. Says it all, nothing more to be discussed. Case closed.

[evrenb]

Did Ali ever fight Lucien Rodriguez??? NOPE!!! ... So it's not a good comparison doofus.

Ali couldn't get Alfredo Evangelista or Leon Spinks down or out... Larry Holmes shlttcanned both of them and blew them away.

Did Holmes fight Mildenberger??

Yeah and shavers flattened Holmes twice, .but..couldn't put ali down...what's your point.?..Holmes lost twice to Michael Spinks....Tyson shitcanned him and spinks. ..Holmes got knocked down by snipes and the legendary kevin isaac and butterbean.., weaver and spoon almost had him out...your arguments are crap...
Don't get me wrong...Holmes is a legend....but not greater than Ali.

[Kalan]

Though Larry was given the fair decision......Butterbean put him on his butt.

And you can't say that Butterbean was in his prime when this happened.

And Butterbean NEVER knocked Ali down....not even ONCE!!! How bout them apples? huh?

So that's pretty much it. Says it all, nothing more to be discussed. Case closed.

BuzzBox my goodness.. There you go traipsing off again into the moonbeams.. Butter Bean DIDN'T floor Holmes.. They even showed it in in slow motion for goofballs like you to comprehend it better and get it right.. Holmes slipped and wasn't hit -- and again they showed it on slow mo.. Holmes was well over 50 when he fought the famed Butter Bean---and he won easily.. It wasn't a good day for skinheads.. Wasn't a good day for future Trump supporters.. Wasn't a good day for whale watchers.

Ali never pulled a similar feat... At that age he wasn't going to be cleared to box Bob Hope... Holmes could have fought for another 10 years.

[Cygnus475]

Ali had a higher ko% than larry. And its true, he did like to toy with guys even if he had them hurt or knocked them down to "give people their moneys worth". Jack Johnson would do the same thing and "carry" a guy.

Look at his bout with buster mathis where he just shakes his head after dropping mathis and rather than go for the kill, ge just continues what was essentially a sparring match with not a lot of heavy leather being thrown.

Or against Wepner where he battered the poor guys face and took his time until the final round to ko him even though he was stumbling on shakey legs for several rounds.

Or how he tortured and toyed with Floyd Patterson and Earnie Terrel out of anger because they disagreed with his name change and political/religious views.

Ali was an underrated hitter and could bust guys up while moving backwards. When he planted his feet and got serious few people could take his blows. Look at how he demolishes Lyle with essentially one sneaky right hand after 10 rounds of hardly thtowing anything. Frazier and Foreman also got clobbered in manilla and zaire and they were very durable elite fighters.

Holmes had a snappier left and slightly longer arms. He had just as much tenacity and heart as Ali but his chin was only slightly weaker. He had a wider range of punches and was better on the inside and while attacking the body. He was more of a traditional fighter in the sense he had the fundamentals and ring iq and didnt rely solely on his legs or athleticism to get by and this is why he was able to beat good, strong young heavies even when he got older and slower.

-jab: alis jab would swell a guys face or cause cuts. Larry could do it too but ali was a bit more active and would double up or throw them in flurries. Holmes jab wasnt just fast he got a lot of leverage off it with his shoulder and had a little more pop than ali in his jab. Holmes could stop a guy dead in his tracks with one jab. Advantage: holmes by a small margin.

-right cross: gonna have to go with ali. Ali stopped more durale guys with his right, it had serious fire power.

-hook: alis hook was more of a "slap" but when he had a guy reeling he would double or even triple on it. Holmes had a hook but it wasnt his favorite punch. Advantage ali.

-uppercut: definitely holmes. Holmes devastating knockdown of spinks was highlight reel material. Ali had a decent uppercut to the jaw in spurts but o never saw him go to the body with it or throw it with frequency.

-body shots: clearly holmes

-stamina: well this is a prime ali and he had no problem going 12 or even 15. He had a thrilling war with chuvalo and took nasty body shots but never slowed down. Holmes had his classic wars with norton and witherspoon and wasnt gasping for air and energed victorious. I wanna say even. Ali didnt really start to become lazy in training until after zaire.

-chin: advantage to ali, although holmes chin was tested in his prime moreso than ali in his. The biggest punchers ali faced were after his exile but he still had cooper, chuvalo, and liston and only went down 2x in his prime and got up. Holmes was rocked hard by witherspoon, sufferes a devastating kd against shavers, dropped by snipes, and rattlet by c00ney. Ali showed he had better recuperative powers and able to fight back sooner while hurt.

-ring iq: about even

-footwork: ali slightly ahead.

-defense: holmes. He could cover up better and didnt rely on his reflexes and swaying to dodge punches all the time.

-hand speed: advantage ali. Holmes rarely threw more than 1-2 punches at a time and would "coast" throwing jabs content to win on points unless he had a clear advantage or had a guy badly hurt/on the ropes. Ali was very vicious and threw several volleys of punchs at blinding speed and went for the ko any chance he got. Still holmes could definitely keep up and wouldnt be easy to land on.

After tallying it up its 5-4 slight advantage to ali with a few categories even. In other words this would be a very, VERY close fight. If i had a gun to my head and had to guess i couldnt pick a clear winner. It would go to the scorecards for sure.

Ali has a slight advantage im terms of physical attributes (power, chin, speed) while holmes was slightly better in cerebral skill (wider ragne of punches, can fight inside and use body shots, better defense, etc). I could see either guy winning the first fight but ali always does excellent in rematches and would probably win if he didnt the first time.

[BoxBuzz]

Ok....I knew that Holmes slipped, but everyone on the east coast knew, butterbean set him up to fall knowing his heavy sweating would make the canvas slippery.....so it was still on Larry to stay vertical....

and I don't even disagree with you about this....but Saad likes it when I pull your chain, cuz he thinks I'm talkin to myself.

It's all very complex.

[Kalan]

Saad is almost as sad as you BuzzBox... But you're impossible to match as a dim wit.

[Kalan]

Ali had a higher ko% than larry. And its true, he did like to toy with guys even if he had them hurt or knocked them down to "give people their moneys worth". Jack Johnson would do the same thing and "carry" a guy.

Look at his bout with buster mathis where he just shakes his head after dropping mathis and rather than go for the kill, ge just continues what was essentially a sparring match with not a lot of heavy leather being thrown.

Or against Wepner where he battered the poor guys face and took his time until the final round to ko him even though he was stumbling on shakey legs for several rounds.

Or how he tortured and toyed with Floyd Patterson and Earnie Terrel out of anger because they disagreed with his name change and political/religious views.

Ali was an underrated hitter and could bust guys up while moving backwards. When he planted his feet and got serious few people could take his blows. Look at how he demolishes Lyle with essentially one sneaky right hand after 10 rounds of hardly thtowing anything. Frazier and Foreman also got clobbered in manilla and zaire and they were very durable elite fighters.

Holmes had a snappier left and slightly longer arms. He had just as much tenacity and heart as Ali but his chin was only slightly weaker. He had a wider range of punches and was better on the inside and while attacking the body. He was more of a traditional fighter in the sense he had the fundamentals and ring iq and didnt rely solely on his legs or athleticism to get by and this is why he was able to beat good, strong young heavies even when he got older and slower.

-jab: alis jab would swell a guys face or cause cuts. Larry could do it too but ali was a bit more active and would double up or throw them in flurries. Holmes jab wasnt just fast he got a lot of leverage off it with his shoulder and had a little more pop than ali in his jab. Holmes could stop a guy dead in his tracks with one jab. Advantage: holmes by a small margin.

-right cross: gonna have to go with ali. Ali stopped more durale guys with his right, it had serious fire power.

-hook: alis hook was more of a "slap" but when he had a guy reeling he would double or even triple on it. Holmes had a hook but it wasnt his favorite punch. Advantage ali.

-uppercut: definitely holmes. Holmes devastating knockdown of spinks was highlight reel material. Ali had a decent uppercut to the jaw in spurts but o never saw him go to the body with it or throw it with frequency.

-body shots: clearly holmes

-stamina: well this is a prime ali and he had no problem going 12 or even 15. He had a thrilling war with chuvalo and took nasty body shots but never slowed down. Holmes had his classic wars with norton and witherspoon and wasnt gasping for air and energed victorious. I wanna say even. Ali didnt really start to become lazy in training until after zaire.

-chin: advantage to ali, although holmes chin was tested in his prime moreso than ali in his. The biggest punchers ali faced were after his exile but he still had cooper, chuvalo, and liston and only went down 2x in his prime and got up. Holmes was rocked hard by witherspoon, sufferes a devastating kd against shavers, dropped by snipes, and rattlet by c00ney. Ali showed he had better recuperative powers and able to fight back sooner while hurt.

-ring iq: about even

-footwork: ali slightly ahead.

-defense: holmes. He could cover up better and didnt rely on his reflexes and swaying to dodge punches all the time.

-hand speed: advantage ali. Holmes rarely threw more than 1-2 punches at a time and would "coast" throwing jabs content to win on points unless he had a clear advantage or had a guy badly hurt/on the ropes. Ali was very vicious and threw several volleys of punchs at blinding speed and went for the ko any chance he got. Still holmes could definitely keep up and wouldnt be easy to land on.

After tallying it up its 5-4 slight advantage to ali with a few categories even. In other words this would be a very, VERY close fight. If i had a gun to my head and had to guess i couldnt pick a clear winner. It would go to the scorecards for sure.

Ali has a slight advantage im terms of physical attributes (power, chin, speed) while holmes was slightly better in cerebral skill (wider ragne of punches, can fight inside and use body shots, better defense, etc). I could see either guy winning the first fight but ali always does excellent in rematches and would probably win if he didnt the first time.

Chin you have to give to Holmes.. 185-pound Cooper almost knocked Ali out.. Little Sonny Banks (191) had Ali down.. and little 205-pound Frazier had Ali down and also had him hurt in the 11th.. Those were all in Ali's prime... Holmes recovered quickly from the Shavers kd, and he was a noted hitter who did nothing to Holmes in their 1st encounter.. Holmes was an old man and very ring rusty when Mike Tyson, one of the hardest punchers ever, and 215 pounds, put him away.. Snipes was 216, another big Heavyweight for his day, and caught Holmes on the end of a straight right.

Stamina goes to Holmes... Ali often had to lay on the ropes to recoup his wind... You seldom saw Larry resting, grabbing, and taking a break.

Hand speed has to go to Homes as well.. Doug Jones out-sped Ali.. Young out-sped Ali.. Norton out-sped Ali.. and obviously Holmes easily out-sped Ali

Ali's ring IQ couldn't match Holmes'... At 42 Holmes had enough skill and savvy to easily beat Ray Mercer... When Ali's physical gifts deteriorated he couldn't fall back on his knowledge and creativity as much as Holmes could.

Holmes had the best jab... His first fight with Shavers he did much better and never really got hit. But after the Norton fight---where Holmes tore up his left biceps badly---he could never retract his jab with the same lightning speed and was vulnerable to right hand counters... Eventually he adapted, but when you lose that rubber-band snap it's never quite the same.. Ali got outjabbed by Young, Jones, Norton, and even Cooper hit him with jabs where he would never get one on Holmes.

Ali's right lacked fire power.. Light Heavyweight Doug Jones said Ali "couldn't crack an egg."..Jones nailed Ali hard with rights. Ali didn’t nothing to him. Foreman didn't drop from Ali's right, any more than he dropped from Young's right.. He dropped from exhaustion both times.. Don't tell me about the phantom punch. Liston got up without a count and the referee screwed him.. Holmes knocked Alfredo Evangelista cold with a right and Ali couldn’t do crap to the guy with his best shots.

[BoxBuzz]

You are more one sided than a Potemkin Village.

IF YOU WERE EVEN HANDED....which you most certainly are not.....you would have added a full disclosure of irrelevant information to your discourse.

Like explaining how in the world Larry could have possibly been knocked down by the meaningless punches of one Mr Snipes. Or how he could not maintain balance when Dancing on Butterbeans sweat.

Or how he lost his title to a little LHW and fell short again when given another chance......Granted this info is equally as meaningless as some of the other incidentals you like to banter about.

You add superfluous shenanigans that have little meaning when it suits your fancy, AND in tandem you also leave a lot of interesting yet useless information out of the loop.

Need to go back and review the tapes I suppose.

[Kalan]

You are more one sided than a Potemkin Village.

IF YOU WERE EVEN HANDED....which you most certainly are not.....you would have added a full disclosure of irrelevant information to your discourse.

Like explaining how in the world Larry could have possibly been knocked down by the meaningless punches of one Mr Snipes. Or how he could not maintain balance when Dancing on Butterbeans sweat.

Or how he lost his title to a little LHW and fell short again when given another chance......Granted this info is equally as meaningless as some of the other incidentals you like to banter about.

You add superfluous shenanigans that have little meaning when it suits your fancy, AND in tandem you also leave a lot of interesting yet useless information out of the loop.

Need to go back and review the tapes I suppose.

BuzzBox you can't think anyway and you're super biased.. All information that's supports my even-handed analysis is irrelevant to you.. Such as the size of the guys who knocked Ali down versus the size of the men who decked Holmes down.. A meaningless punch doesn't put you up 2 points and win you the round.. Holmes lost his title to a Light Heavyweight who was 27-0, weighed 200, and had never been beaten or tied... Ali lost his title to the half-wit brother who weighed 197 and was 6-0-1.

And yes...you need to review a lot of recorded fights... Starting with any Armstrong fights you can find -- with an open mind and not dismissing things as you go -- because your eyes are overruled by what you think is the collective wisdom of the multitude... The multitude elected Dubya Bush and Trump.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan, you're being extremely truculent.

[Kalan]

ahh boy

[evrenb]

Ali had a higher ko% than larry. And its true, he did like to toy with guys even if he had them hurt or knocked them down to "give people their moneys worth". Jack Johnson would do the same thing and "carry" a guy.

Look at his bout with buster mathis where he just shakes his head after dropping mathis and rather than go for the kill, ge just continues what was essentially a sparring match with not a lot of heavy leather being thrown.

Or against Wepner where he battered the poor guys face and took his time until the final round to ko him even though he was stumbling on shakey legs for several rounds.

Or how he tortured and toyed with Floyd Patterson and Earnie Terrel out of anger because they disagreed with his name change and political/religious views.

Ali was an underrated hitter and could bust guys up while moving backwards. When he planted his feet and got serious few people could take his blows. Look at how he demolishes Lyle with essentially one sneaky right hand after 10 rounds of hardly thtowing anything. Frazier and Foreman also got clobbered in manilla and zaire and they were very durable elite fighters.

Holmes had a snappier left and slightly longer arms. He had just as much tenacity and heart as Ali but his chin was only slightly weaker. He had a wider range of punches and was better on the inside and while attacking the body. He was more of a traditional fighter in the sense he had the fundamentals and ring iq and didnt rely solely on his legs or athleticism to get by and this is why he was able to beat good, strong young heavies even when he got older and slower.

-jab: alis jab would swell a guys face or cause cuts. Larry could do it too but ali was a bit more active and would double up or throw them in flurries. Holmes jab wasnt just fast he got a lot of leverage off it with his shoulder and had a little more pop than ali in his jab. Holmes could stop a guy dead in his tracks with one jab. Advantage: holmes by a small margin.

-right cross: gonna have to go with ali. Ali stopped more durale guys with his right, it had serious fire power.

-hook: alis hook was more of a "slap" but when he had a guy reeling he would double or even triple on it. Holmes had a hook but it wasnt his favorite punch. Advantage ali.

-uppercut: definitely holmes. Holmes devastating knockdown of spinks was highlight reel material. Ali had a decent uppercut to the jaw in spurts but o never saw him go to the body with it or throw it with frequency.

-body shots: clearly holmes

-stamina: well this is a prime ali and he had no problem going 12 or even 15. He had a thrilling war with chuvalo and took nasty body shots but never slowed down. Holmes had his classic wars with norton and witherspoon and wasnt gasping for air and energed victorious. I wanna say even. Ali didnt really start to become lazy in training until after zaire.

-chin: advantage to ali, although holmes chin was tested in his prime moreso than ali in his. The biggest punchers ali faced were after his exile but he still had cooper, chuvalo, and liston and only went down 2x in his prime and got up. Holmes was rocked hard by witherspoon, sufferes a devastating kd against shavers, dropped by snipes, and rattlet by c00ney. Ali showed he had better recuperative powers and able to fight back sooner while hurt.

-ring iq: about even

-footwork: ali slightly ahead.

-defense: holmes. He could cover up better and didnt rely on his reflexes and swaying to dodge punches all the time.

-hand speed: advantage ali. Holmes rarely threw more than 1-2 punches at a time and would "coast" throwing jabs content to win on points unless he had a clear advantage or had a guy badly hurt/on the ropes. Ali was very vicious and threw several volleys of punchs at blinding speed and went for the ko any chance he got. Still holmes could definitely keep up and wouldnt be easy to land on.

After tallying it up its 5-4 slight advantage to ali with a few categories even. In other words this would be a very, VERY close fight. If i had a gun to my head and had to guess i couldnt pick a clear winner. It would go to the scorecards for sure.

Ali has a slight advantage im terms of physical attributes (power, chin, speed) while holmes was slightly better in cerebral skill (wider ragne of punches, can fight inside and use body shots, better defense, etc). I could see either guy winning the first fight but ali always does excellent in rematches and would probably win if he didnt the first time.

Chin you have to give to Holmes.. 185-pound Cooper almost knocked Ali out.. Little Sonny Banks (191) had Ali down.. and little 205-pound Frazier had Ali down and also had him hurt in the 11th.. Those were all in Ali's prime... Holmes recovered quickly from the Shavers kd, and he was a noted hitter who did nothing to Holmes in their 1st encounter.. Holmes was an old man and very ring rusty when Mike Tyson, one of the hardest punchers ever, and 215 pounds, put him away.. Snipes was 216, another big Heavyweight for his day, and caught Holmes on the end of a straight right.

Stamina goes to Holmes... Ali often had to lay on the ropes to recoup his wind... You seldom saw Larry resting, grabbing, and taking a break.

Hand speed has to go to Homes as well.. Doug Jones out-sped Ali.. Young out-sped Ali.. Norton out-sped Ali.. and obviously Holmes easily out-sped Ali

Ali's ring IQ couldn't match Holmes'... At 42 Holmes had enough skill and savvy to easily beat Ray Mercer... When Ali's physical gifts deteriorated he couldn't fall back on his knowledge and creativity as much as Holmes could.

Holmes had the best jab... His first fight with Shavers he did much better and never really got hit. But after the Norton fight---where Holmes tore up his left biceps badly---he could never retract his jab with the same lightning speed and was vulnerable to right hand counters... Eventually he adapted, but when you lose that rubber-band snap it's never quite the same.. Ali got outjabbed by Young, Jones, Norton, and even Cooper hit him with jabs where he would never get one on Holmes.

Ali's right lacked fire power.. Light Heavyweight Doug Jones said Ali "couldn't crack an egg."..Jones nailed Ali hard with rights. Ali didn’t nothing to him. Foreman didn't drop from Ali's right, any more than he dropped from Young's right.. He dropped from exhaustion both times.. Don't tell me about the phantom punch. Liston got up without a count and the referee screwed him.. Holmes knocked Alfredo Evangelista cold with a right and Ali couldn’t do crap to the guy with his best shots.

Like Holmes was dropped by an 188lbs Kevin isaac .....Il duce you are one of the biggest idiots ever to post on here.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's definitely not IL duce. Horrible poster, but not him. You're giving him far too much credit to completely change his style and tactics.

[davie]

That's definitely not IL duce. Horrible poster, but not him. You're giving him far too much credit to completely change his style and tactics.

I was going to post the same the other day, I never saw much of Il Duce on here but I have read plenty of his guff on old post and Kalan is not he.

It's like everytine someone pops up on Current scene that's a bit argumentative he must be a reincarnation of Brut, like it's impossible for there to be more than one internet troll in the world.
Kalan is no Duce, he is his very own style of troll.


Lets call him El Douche